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Quantum_Leap June 6th, 2010 03:06 PM

abortion for animals
 
I hope I don't offend anyone by posting this, but I just came across this this morning and thought it was interesting because it's something I've never thought about before. Apparently, abortions can be and are performed on dogs, cats, horses etc., for a variety of reasons. (Link: Pregnancy Termination in Dogs and Cats) My general question is, do your views on abortion for animals coincide with your views on abortion for humans? Pro-life people, are you still opposed to abortions for animals? Pro-choice people, I'm not really sure what question to ask here, since obviously it's not really possible for an animal to have a 'choice' about something like this, but please discuss your general thoughts. :)

melkissa2004 June 6th, 2010 04:27 PM

Re: abortion for animals
 
I am pro-choice and I have taken a dog to get an abortion.
Before my brother died, he had a 4 year old dog he had bred numerous times (despite my begging him to get her spayed. she was a pit bull and he wanted to make money off of her). After he died, my sister agreed to care for the dog. I kept offering to pay for her to get spayed and my sister kept putting me off and saying "maybe next week." etc etc. Eventually I found out through my mom that my sister took her to someone's house to breed her with another pit because she was short on money and now the dog is pregnant. I immediately called her and put my foot down. I told her all of the reasons she should NOT be back yard breeding, made her look at pictures of abused dogs, and even called animal shelters to prove how many pits end up in shelters. She FINALLY agreed to let me take the dog to a vet to get the puppies aborted and get the dog spayed.
I absolutely, without a doubt, do NOT regret my decision to do that.

Tammyjh June 6th, 2010 04:34 PM

Re: abortion for animals
 
I'm pro choice across the board. I prefer to have my pets spayed and neutered but with the one cat we had, we messed up some years ago. She was expecting when she was given to dh and had the litter (its how I got my Charlie Cat). The vets office told us that they wouldn't spay her until she was done nursing her kittens. We kept her inside the best we could but one day, she tore a hole in the screen and was expecting again. I mentioned on a message that we were planning on taking her in to terminate and I was raked over the coals big time. For some reason, we ended up not taking her in and she had the kittens and we found homes for all but 2 who we took to the shelter. I was 39 wks. pg. with my 10 yr. old at the time and I was a basketcase over it.

IAmMomMomIAm June 7th, 2010 06:00 AM

Re: abortion for animals
 
I'm always torn on this issue, to be honest. I know there are thousands of dogs and cats born every year that die because they don't have homes. At the same time, I've never felt that abortion was an option.

It just doesn't sit well with me to take a mother's children from her.. which is essentially what's being done there. Animals may not have the same attachment to their offspring as we do, but they certainly feel the loss of miscarried (or aborted) and stillborn offspring.

GinaB June 7th, 2010 07:44 AM

Re: abortion for animals
 
Never really thought about abortion for animals but they are not the same in my thoughts as humans whom have souls, kwim?

Quote:

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." (Genesis 1:26, NIV)
Quote:

"Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything." (Genesis 9:3, NIV)
God prohibited the killing of man ("You shall not murder," Exodus 20:13) but he placed no such restriction on the killing of animals. Man is made in God’s image, so man must not kill one of his own kind. Animals, it would seem, are different from man. If they do have a "soul" that survives death, it is different from man’s. It does not need redemption. Christ died to save the souls of human beings, not animals.

So heck if I know, but you got me thinking.....lol

(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.) June 7th, 2010 11:56 AM

Re: abortion for animals
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cricket Master (Post 20443517)
Never really thought about abortion for animals but they are not the same in my thoughts as humans whom have souls, kwim?





God prohibited the killing of man ("You shall not murder," Exodus 20:13) but he placed no such restriction on the killing of animals. Man is made in God’s image, so man must not kill one of his own kind. Animals, it would seem, are different from man. If they do have a "soul" that survives death, it is different from man’s. It does not need redemption. Christ died to save the souls of human beings, not animals.

So heck if I know, but you got me thinking.....lol

Gina I think you stated perfectly why I can't be Christian when the faith promotes animals to not have souls and they aren't deemed associated as worthwhile lives to consider like humans..

**Badfish** June 7th, 2010 12:56 PM

Re: abortion for animals
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by (.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.) (Post 20447327)
Gina I think you stated perfectly why I can't be Christian when the faith promotes animals to not have souls and they aren't deemed associated as worthwhile lives to consider like humans..

No kidding. My jaw dropped when I read that. Anyone who has loved a dog knows they have souls.

I'm pro-choice but what Kes said is pretty resonant of my thoughts, as well.

Tammyjh June 7th, 2010 01:32 PM

Re: abortion for animals
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by (.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.) (Post 20447327)
Gina I think you stated perfectly why I can't be Christian when the faith promotes animals to not have souls and they aren't deemed associated as worthwhile lives to consider like humans..

But not all Christians believe and interpret the Bible in the same way. Here's another take on animals and souls....I haven't gotten through all of it yet because I just found it. Its an interesting read so far and I've not really given much thought to if animals have souls or not. I guess I just always assumed they do.
They Shall Not Hurt Or Destroy - Chapter 8 - Animals Have Souls - The Writings of Vasu S. Murti: Human Rights - Social Justice - Animal Rights - Peace - Love - Compassion - Kindness - Gentleness - Religion - Soul - Spirit - Knowledge - Wisdom - Polit

IAmMomMomIAm June 7th, 2010 03:16 PM

Re: abortion for animals
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by (.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.) (Post 20447327)
Gina I think you stated perfectly why I can't be Christian when the faith promotes animals to not have souls and they aren't deemed associated as worthwhile lives to consider like humans..

Not every Christian believes that.. you can't write off an entire belief system that encompasses countless denominations just because ONE person doesn't think animals have souls. :huh: (obviously you have other reasons for rejecting Christianity, I'm just saying don't add that to your list. ;))

Jehovah's Witnesses are Christian, and they don't believe HUMANS have souls, in the traditional definition. It doesn't mean they don't value life.

From LDS Scripture:
Quote:

Moses 3:5 - For I, the Lord God, acreated all things, of which I have spoken, bspiritually, before they were cnaturally upon the face of the earth

Moses 3:9 - And out of the ground made I, the Lord God, to grow every tree, anaturally, that is pleasant to the sight of man; and man could behold it. And it became also a bliving soul. For it was spiritual in the day that I created it

Moses 3:19 - And out of the ground I, the Lord God, formed every abeast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and commanded that they should come unto Adam, to see what he would call them; and they were also living souls; for I, God, breathed into them the bbreath of life, and commanded that whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that should be the name thereof.

Doctrine and Covenants 29:24 - For all aold things shall bpass away, and all things shall become new, even the heaven and the earth, and all the fulness thereof, both men and cbeasts, the fowls of the air, and the fishes of the sea;
So, there you go. :) Not all Christian denominations, and therefore not all Christians believe that animals (and plants) are without souls.

ETA: Pardon the random letters in the Scripture quotes.. those were the little reference letters, since I pulled the passages straight from the website. I can delete them in need be, but I'm kind of lazy today.

(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.) June 7th, 2010 03:41 PM

Re: abortion for animals
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Keskes (Post 20450065)
Not every Christian believes that.. you can't write off an entire belief system that encompasses countless denominations just because ONE person doesn't think animals have souls. :huh: (obviously you have other reasons for rejecting Christianity, I'm just saying don't add that to your list. ;))

See, this is why I get strict Catholics calling other's cafeteria. Either the script says it or it doesn't. It's pretty black and white. The script says it and I don't believe that is right in anyway.

IAmMomMomIAm June 7th, 2010 04:57 PM

Re: abortion for animals
 
"cafeteria" ? The script says what? What's isn't right? I don't understand your post at all. :confused:

The scriptures that Gina quoted don't say anything about whether or not animals have souls. She inferred the fact that we're allowed to eat them to mean they probably don't. There is nothing in the Bible that says animals are without souls (that I know of), so I'm not understanding where you think it says that.

and I even quoted Scripture (though not traditional Biblical text) that says the exact opposite.

GinaB June 7th, 2010 05:06 PM

Re: abortion for animals
 
Ok, I found this on a Catholic website and it's interesting

Quote:

“Why do Catholics think that animals do not have souls? Does the Bible talk about this or is this just our assumption?”

First, the Catholic Church does not teach that animals do not have souls. With the help of St. Thomas Aquinas, the Church understands soul to mean “life”. So, all things that have life – animals, plants, humans, etc. – have souls. Do all living things have the same type of soul? No. In response to the question of whether animals go to Heaven, Dr. Richard Geraghty, PhD, explains that the differences between the souls of humans and animals involve intellect, free will, and immortality (from ewtn.com):

“…all living things have a soul. Here soul is defined as what makes an organic body live. Now when any living thing dies, its soul is separated from its body. In the case of plants and animals the soul goes out of existence. But in the case of man, the soul remains in existence because it is a spiritual or immaterial thing. Consequently, it differs from the souls of animals in two important respects. First, it is the seat of intelligence or reason. For this reason a man is held responsible for his actions in a way that animals are not.

Secondly, the soul is immortal. A thing which has no physical parts cannot fall apart or be poisoned or be crushed or be put out of existence. For this reason the souls of the saved will always be aware of themselves as enjoying the vision of God for all eternity. This enjoyment will be the result of having chosen to act on earth in such a way that one did the will of God rather than one's own will. And the souls of the ****** will be aware of themselves as never attaining this vision of God because they have shown by their lives on earth that they did not wish this vision but instead preferred their own will.

In the light of this essential difference between human beings and animals, it would seem that we would not see the souls of our pets in heaven for the simple reason that they do not have immortal souls and are not responsible for their actions. They do not have the intelligence which allows them to choose either God's will or their own will. There is, then, an incomparable distance, say, between the soul of the sorriest human being who ever lived and the most noble brute animal that ever walked the earth.
So I guess they do have souls, just not human souls?

GW Catholic Q & A: Do animals have souls?

IAmMomMomIAm June 7th, 2010 05:32 PM

Re: abortion for animals
 
LDS doctrine teaches that animals and plants (and even the Earth itself) will be resurrected just like humans.

(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.) June 7th, 2010 05:59 PM

Re: abortion for animals
 
So glad to read that!

*Dayna* June 8th, 2010 08:29 AM

Re: abortion for animals
 
My dentist was talking to me about her horse who was having twins. One of the babies was being aborted the next week.

I think it's strange.

IAmMomMomIAm June 8th, 2010 08:39 AM

Re: abortion for animals
 
From what I understand, a horse carrying twins is kind of like a human carrying sextuplets. It can be done, but generally isn't recommended.

*Dayna* June 8th, 2010 08:40 AM

Re: abortion for animals
 
That's what she was saying. She said there was a big risk that they would lose both babies, and had to have one aborted to save the other.

IAmMomMomIAm June 8th, 2010 08:42 AM

Re: abortion for animals
 
They do that with human pregnancies as well.. I remember Kate Goslin saying they told her she should abort at least 2 of the sextuplets, but she refused to do it.

*Dayna* June 8th, 2010 08:55 AM

Re: abortion for animals
 
Really? I didn't know that, I'm glad she didn't.

I can't quite remember details but I do remember a lady pregnant with 8 and they told her to abort a couple of the babies but she refused and they all died.

IAmMomMomIAm June 8th, 2010 09:04 AM

Re: abortion for animals
 
I think the term they use is "selective reduction." Theoretically it makes sense, and I'm honestly not sure how I feel about it. I would be against it for myself, but I don't think I could blame someone for doing it, either. Because it's not just the health of the fetus(es) that's at risk, but the mother as well.

It's far more common to do in animals than people, for obvious reasons.


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