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  #1  
March 31st, 2008, 10:27 AM
Cereal Killer's Avatar I'm climbin' in yo window
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* 513,000 = Number of children in foster care on September 30, 2005

* 114,000 = Number of children waiting to be adopted on September 30, 2005

* 51,000 = Number of children adopted from the public foster care system in FY 2005

Quote:
Infants — babies less than 12 months of age — are the largest group of children
to enter, remain and re-enter the child welfare system. Of the almost 600,000
children in foster care nationwide, one in five admissions is an infant. Since an
alarming number of these babies are born prenatally exposed to drugs, premature
or low birthweight, they are far more likely than other children to have serious
medical problems, disabilities and developmental delays.[/b]
Quote:
Compared to older children in foster care and even those babies living in poverty, infants in
foster care face far greater risks to their healthy development and future adult
well-being. The vast majority are prenatally exposed to maternal substance abuse
and forty percent are born prematurely or with low birthweight — increasing
the likelihood of chronic medical conditions, developmental delay and disability.
And many infants in foster care experience multiple placements within their first
year of life that can inhibit their capacity to form emotional attachments.
Infants also move through the child welfare system in ways that are different
from older children — they remain in care longer and re-enter care after discharge
in alarming numbers. The youngest babies, those under three months of
age, are the most likely to enter foster care and spend twice as long in care as
older children. And about one-third of all infants discharged from foster care
return to the child welfare system, a strong indication that the problems leading to initial placement have remained unresolved.[/b]
Quote:
The majority of infants enter the
child welfare system within the first
three months of life and a significant
number are placed in foster care
directly from the hospital nursery.[/b]
Source


A critical look at foster care
Foster care abuse
More abuse
Quote:
Nationally, more than 20,000 youth age out of foster care each year when they turn 18 and are no longer eligible for state funded housing and support. The obstacles they face trying to transition from foster care to independent living are insurmountable, and the statistics speak for themselves. More than 50% of youth who age out have not graduated from high school; only 38% are employed 12-18 months after leaving the foster care system; one forth report encounters with the juvenile justice system; and over 60% of the young women leaving foster care will have a baby within four years.[/b]
source

Quote:
Children in foster care are more likely than other children to exhibit high levels of behavioral and emotional problems. They are also more likely to be suspended or expelled from school and to exhibit low levels of school engagement and involvement with extracurricular activities. Children in foster care are also more likely to have received mental health services in the past year, to have a limiting physical, learning, or mental health condition, or to be in poor or fair health.1 One study found that almost 60 percent of young children in foster care, ages 2 months to two years, were at a high risk for a developmental delay or neurological impairment.2[/b]
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  #2  
March 31st, 2008, 01:43 PM
Mom2DavidandAaron's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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That's very sad, but I still don't believe abortion is an appropiate birth control method. That still doesn't give us a right to determine which life is worth living and who would be better off dead.
I was adopted and I dread to think what would've happened if my birth mother thought that because of statistics like this, I may as well be dead. I know people who've had terrible childhood, and not one says they prefer to be dead.
Who are we to say that a life we cannot know how it'll turn out isn't worth living? Has anyone asked these children in foster care if they prefer never to have been born at all? Or do they still value their lives? That to me, is way more significant than a bunch of numbers.

Sharon
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  #3  
March 31st, 2008, 02:43 PM
mommyKathyX3
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Those numbers are EXTREAMLY sad, but I dont think the "solution" to abortion is adoption in every instance either. The "solution" to abortion is better education in most circumstances. Abortion is not NEVER the bad choice, it just isnt the better choice MOST of the time.

I just dont think that its better to abort than to give those kids a CHANCE at a life. A chance is better than NO chance.
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  #4  
March 31st, 2008, 03:28 PM
Cereal Killer's Avatar I'm climbin' in yo window
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Quote:
That's very sad, but I still don't believe abortion is an appropiate birth control method.[/b]
At what point did I advocate abortion as a birth control method?
Quote:
That still doesn't give us a right to determine which life is worth living and who would be better off dead.[/b]
So, sexual abuse, physical abuse, neglect and suffering classifies as "living"?

Quote:
I was adopted and I dread to think what would've happened if my birth mother thought that because of statistics like this, I may as well be dead.[/b]
I think you are generalizing and over simplifying the weight of the decision by postulating that women that choose abortion reduce the decision to "meh, he/she is better off dead".
Quote:
I know people who've had terrible childhood, and not one says they prefer to be dead.[/b]
Relevance?
Quote:
Who are we to say that a life we cannot know how it'll turn out isn't worth living? Has anyone asked these children in foster care if they prefer never to have been born at all? Or do they still value their lives? That to me, is way more significant than a bunch of numbers.[/b]
Obviously, you missed my point.

The vast majority of PLers cite adoption as the fail safe alternative to abortion, yet none take a moment to consider the circumstances of the system they so vehemently advocate and heroically endorse. Your response only demonstrates the inconsistent values of the PL base. What it boils down to, it seems, is that PLers should rename themselves "pro-fetus" because that is the only "life" most seem concerned with. If they get beaten, raped, neglected or die, the response is, "hey, at least they didn't get aborted.". It just makes no sense.


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  #5  
March 31st, 2008, 07:28 PM
LaLaRose3's Avatar My brand of heroin.
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Location: Kentucky
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Quote:
The vast majority of PLers cite adoption as the fail safe alternative to abortion, yet none take a moment to consider the circumstances of the system they so vehemently advocate and heroically endorse. Your response only demonstrates the inconsistent values of the PL base. What it boils down to, it seems, is that PLers should rename themselves "pro-fetus" because that is the only "life" most seem concerned with. If they get beaten, raped, neglected or die, the response is, "hey, at least they didn't get aborted.". It just makes no sense.[/b]
I actually understand what you mean here, and talked to a lot of PL friends/relatives about this very subject. Thanks for bringing this topic up...
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  #6  
March 31st, 2008, 07:47 PM
Mom2DavidandAaron's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Quote:
That's very sad, but I still don't believe abortion is an appropiate birth control method.[/b]
At what point did I advocate abortion as a birth control method?
[/b]
I'm sorry but you seem to be talking about healthy children, from healthy mothers who were put into foster care because their mothers couldn't or didn't want to take care of those children.
Then you're questioning if it wouldn't ahve been better for those healthy mother to abort those healthy children if they weren't willing or couldn't raise them... that's abortion as birth control method... I never said you were "advocating" it, but it's my impression by this post that yo udon't condment it either. I mean, aren't you questioning if it's better to continue putting children in this flawed foster care system or to abort them? If not, then what's the point of your OP?

Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
That still doesn't give us a right to determine which life is worth living and who would be better off dead.[/b]
So, sexual abuse, physical abuse, neglect and suffering classifies as "living"?
[/b][/quote]

The person is alive and as long as the's alive, he has a chance of making a better life. I've met people fro mabusive homes and not a single one has said they would prefer to be dead.
Furthermore, you cannot know if by giving a baby up for adotion he'd be subject to abuse, so who are we really to decide at that point that that particular life is better of not even having a chance?

Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
I was adopted and I dread to think what would've happened if my birth mother thought that because of statistics like this, I may as well be dead.[/b]
I think you are generalizing and over simplifying the weight of the decision by postulating that women that choose abortion reduce the decision to "meh, he/she is better off dead".
[/b][/quote]

Well, what is it then? You said above that abuse, neglect, and suffering cannot be called "living". And if you're putting this in an abortion debate... aren't you suggesting that the people in these situations are better off not existing?
I mean, if your'e not, then I'm sorry, but I'm not understanding the point you're trying to make.

Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
I know people who've had terrible childhood, and not one says they prefer to be dead.[/b]
Relevance?
[/b][/quote]

The relevance is that numbers are interesting and all, but what does that really mean? In terms of adoption vs abortion, I mean. This number of children in foster care are abused/neglected and...? Does that mean they would be better off aborted and not existing in the first place? How can you determine that? Yo ucan't, the nwhy not at least give them a chance to live.

Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
Who are we to say that a life we cannot know how it'll turn out isn't worth living? Has anyone asked these children in foster care if they prefer never to have been born at all? Or do they still value their lives? That to me, is way more significant than a bunch of numbers.[/b]
Obviously, you missed my point.
[/b][/quote]

Obviously I did.

Quote:
The vast majority of PLers cite adoption as the fail safe alternative to abortion, yet none take a moment to consider the circumstances of the system they so vehemently advocate and heroically endorse. Your response only demonstrates the inconsistent values of the PL base. What it boils down to, it seems, is that PLers should rename themselves "pro-fetus" because that is the only "life" most seem concerned with. If they get beaten, raped, neglected or die, the response is, "hey, at least they didn't get aborted.". It just makes no sense. [/b]
I believed your'e mistaken and over simpliflying our position. And I think now you're missing my point.
Basically you cannot KNOW how a life will turn out. Why deny a chance at life simply because there's a chance it'll turn bad? Why assume that abortion is the less of two evils based simply on meaningless numbers? And up to what point yo udetermine that life's difficulties can determine what life is worth living and what's better off not existing? You talk about abuse and neglect... what about extreme poverty?
In short: How can you say tha tabortion is the lesser of two evils when you cannot know how a life will turn out and how the difficulties and obstacles the person has to face will shape him? I still see abortion as the greatest of the two evils here. Even with such a flawed system, happy families are still created. Children liek me, who could've ended up not even existed are having happy, fulfilling lives. And even those children who weren't that "lucky" (I don't really believe in luck) can have very good lives even after being victims of such atrocities. But however those lives turn out to be, at least they had a chance. And that's why, IMO, abortion is still worse. If you have the chance, you can do anything. If you're not even given that... well, sad really. Anyone can get raped, abused, neglected, beaten or killed- foster care or not. So what are you saying? It's not just valuing the fetus' life, it's valuing ALL lifes, regardless of how the odds seem because ALL lifes deserve a chance. It's precisely not knowing what a life is worth that makes me (and I'm sure other pro-lifers) say that the least you can do when faced with the decision is give that life the chance.

Sharon
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  #7  
March 31st, 2008, 09:29 PM
rose198172's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Posts: 19,638
Interesting topic, Stacey.

This is why I fully support a woman's right to choose. I don't think that abortion is always the answer, and that's why I definitely advocate counseling before a choice like that is made (is that mandatory now or no?I can't recall at the moment).

I can understand where others are coming from though... I can see that being pro-life can be viewed as giving every child a chance, and granted, abortion is a very difficult choice, and not one that I think I could make for myself. But is adoption the better choice in all situations? Not necessarily.
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  #8  
March 31st, 2008, 09:35 PM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Denver metro area
Posts: 2,988
You said:

The vast majority of PLers cite adoption as the fail safe alternative to abortion, yet none take a moment to consider the circumstances of the system they so vehemently advocate and heroically endorse. Your response only demonstrates the inconsistent values of the PL base. What it boils down to, it seems, is that PLers should rename themselves "pro-fetus" because that is the only "life" most seem concerned with. If they get beaten, raped, neglected or die, the response is, "hey, at least they didn't get aborted.". It just makes no sense.
[/quote]


You have me confused. Yes, PLers support adoption. Yes, PLers believe adoption is a much better solution than killing of the innocent. What exactly is the connection with the foster care system?? When a pregnant mother decides to give her baby up for adoption, that baby rarely ends up in the foster care system. Am I missing something in your first post??? Yes, there are thousands of babies and young children in foster care and many are waiting for adoption, but what does that have to do with the adoption/abortion debate? Do you understand that many many children and infants who are in foster care may someday be reunited with their birth parents? you understand that is the main goal of the foster care system? Just because a prolife person advocates adoption over abortion, it doesn't mean that prolifer necessarily agrees with the foster care system - they are totally different issues. YOU are the one that isn't making any sense when you say pro life people are really "pro-fetus" - why would an adopted baby get beaten, raped or neglected any more than a person living with his/her biological parents? Parents who adopt love those children just as if they were bio children - or again, are you confusing adoption with the foster care system??
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  #9  
April 1st, 2008, 07:16 AM
Cereal Killer's Avatar I'm climbin' in yo window
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Quote:
You have me confused. Yes, PLers support adoption. Yes, PLers believe adoption is a much better solution than killing of the innocent. What exactly is the connection with the foster care system?? When a pregnant mother decides to give her baby up for adoption, that baby rarely ends up in the foster care system. Am I missing something in your first post??? Yes, there are thousands of babies and young children in foster care and many are waiting for adoption, but what does that have to do with the adoption/abortion debate? Do you understand that many many children and infants who are in foster care may someday be reunited with their birth parents? you understand that is the main goal of the foster care system? Just because a prolife person advocates adoption over abortion, it doesn't mean that prolifer necessarily agrees with the foster care system - they are totally different issues. YOU are the one that isn't making any sense when you say pro life people are really "pro-fetus" - why would an adopted baby get beaten, raped or neglected any more than a person living with his/her biological parents? Parents who adopt love those children just as if they were bio children - or again, are you confusing adoption with the foster care system??[/b]
You think every infant placed for adoption is immediately placed? Healthy Caucasian infants are immediately placed, otherwise, you should read the info in the OP.
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  #10  
April 1st, 2008, 08:02 AM
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I'm for people making their own decisions. They will know what's best for their lives, the lives of their family, and what choice has the ramifications they're most prepared or equiped to deal with. If somebody wants to give up for adoption, rock on. If they want to abort, rock on. If they want to keep the baby, rock on. It's not my place to determine the family future for another person's family.

I am disturbed though at the status of the adoption system. I think it's woefully understaffed, and that there is not enough support for those folks who'd like to adopt. To adopt, I think you have to be a strong person with strong resolve, who truly does what they do in the face of adversity and negative outcomes, and seeing/hearing some heartbreaking things. That said, I don't think that adoption should be like choosing a new car at a dealership... If our adoption system is at such a state where parents can pick and choose what they want or don't want, like one picks a breed of dog, then I think something is wrong. There should never be so many children in the system that people can be choosy. I think that, ideally, there'd be so few children in need of good homes that the arrangement for adoption would be "take what you can get," not pass on one child because they're mixed race, older, and have "history" for the blonde, blue-eyed baby. Really, when you're pregnant and have a baby, you take what you're given, no trading in for another model... I don't see why adoption can't be the same way. If you want a child bad enough, then it won't matter anyway.
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  #11  
April 1st, 2008, 08:26 AM
cfm
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I agree with the pp. Huge difference between the foster care system and the adoptive system.
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  #12  
April 1st, 2008, 08:28 AM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Denver metro area
Posts: 2,988
Quote:
Quote:
You have me confused. Yes, PLers support adoption. Yes, PLers believe adoption is a much better solution than killing of the innocent. What exactly is the connection with the foster care system?? When a pregnant mother decides to give her baby up for adoption, that baby rarely ends up in the foster care system. Am I missing something in your first post??? Yes, there are thousands of babies and young children in foster care and many are waiting for adoption, but what does that have to do with the adoption/abortion debate? Do you understand that many many children and infants who are in foster care may someday be reunited with their birth parents? you understand that is the main goal of the foster care system? Just because a prolife person advocates adoption over abortion, it doesn't mean that prolifer necessarily agrees with the foster care system - they are totally different issues. YOU are the one that isn't making any sense when you say pro life people are really "pro-fetus" - why would an adopted baby get beaten, raped or neglected any more than a person living with his/her biological parents? Parents who adopt love those children just as if they were bio children - or again, are you confusing adoption with the foster care system??[/b]
You think every infant placed for adoption is immediately placed? Healthy Caucasian infants are immediately placed, otherwise, you should read the info in the OP.
[/b]

Okay, I did reread your OP and I'm still missing it. Your OP talked about the number of infants placed in foster care but it doesn't say anything about the number pregnant women who wanted to place the baby up for adoption and were unable to find placement prior to birth. Like your OP stated, infants are usually removed from the mother because they are born addicted to drugs or other problems. Those babies don't immediately wait for adoption. There is a whole legal process that can take years before a mother's rights are terminated and the child is then ready to be adopted. Legally, you can't just take a baby from his/her parents and give that baby to someone else - the mother and or father have the right to try and get his/her life in order and get their baby back.

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  #13  
April 1st, 2008, 10:23 AM
Cereal Killer's Avatar I'm climbin' in yo window
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Quote:
I'm sorry but you seem to be talking about healthy children, from healthy mothers who were put into foster care because their mothers couldn't or didn't want to take care of those children.[/b]
I am talking about ALL children born as a result of an unwanted/unplanned pregnancy, white, black, healthy, ill, physically/mentally handicapped and terminally ill; as the majority of staunch PLers oppose abortion under any circumstance. MANY, MANY children given up for adoption are virtually "unadoptable" for a variety of reasons.
Quote:
Then you're questioning if it wouldn't ahve been better for those healthy mother to abort those healthy children if they weren't willing or couldn't raise them[/b]
I am not saying one is better than the other, NOT at all. You seem to be reading between the lines when nothing is there. I am advocating a woman's right to CHOOSE, PLers want to make that choice for women, REGARDLESS of the individual circumstances.
Quote:
... that's abortion as birth control method...[/b]
Stop it. You are deflecting from the OP and drawing conclusions without a source. Stick to the topic. I have not mentioned, much less endorsed, abortion as a BC method. I have spoken only of abortion, in general.
Quote:
I never said you were "advocating" it, but it's my impression by this post that yo udon't condment it either.[/b]
Start a new topic, then, on abortion as BC and I will respond. It has nothing to do with this topic so it is irrelevant.
Quote:
I mean, aren't you questioning if it's better to continue putting children in this flawed foster care system or to abort them? If not, then what's the point of your OP?[/b]
My point is that there are negatives on both sides of the fence. Giving a child up for adoption isn't always like a Hollywood movie. HORRIBLE things can and do happen to MANY of the children thrown into it. PLers spout adoption as THE SOLUTION but that is not the typical reality. (Unless the infant is healthy and Caucasian).


Quote:
The person is alive and as long as the's alive, he has a chance of making a better life. I've met people fro mabusive homes and not a single one has said they would prefer to be dead.[/b]
Well, here is evidence to the contrary, to make you aware that your personal experiences and encounters are not universal:
adoption trauma
adoption trauma blog
another adoptee's story
Adoption and suicide
The Chosen Children
Quote:
Furthermore, you cannot know if by giving a baby up for adotion he'd be subject to abuse, so who are we really to decide at that point that that particular life is better of not even having a chance?[/b]
And you can't know that adoption is always the best alternative for the pregnant woman or the fetus she is pregnant with.
Quote:
Well, what is it then? You said above that abuse, neglect, and suffering cannot be called "living". And if you're putting this in an abortion debate... aren't you suggesting that the people in these situations are better off not existing?
I mean, if your'e not, then I'm sorry, but I'm not understanding the point you're trying to make.[/b]
The point I am trying to make, as I have already stated, is that the PL movement doesn't concern themselves with the unwanted, abandoned, abused, neglected and dying children once they have been born. They don't advocate or lobby for a reform of the system that is responsible for committing egregious acts against the BORN infants and children, they are only concerned with what they consider to be a crime against a zygote, embryo or fetus.
Quote:
The relevance is that numbers are interesting and all, but what does that really mean? In terms of adoption vs abortion, I mean. This number of children in foster care are abused/neglected and...?[/b]
My point exactly. SAVE THE FETUS! Screw the children. Put that on the new PL posters.
Quote:
Does that mean they would be better off aborted and not existing in the first place? How can you determine that? Yo ucan't, the nwhy not at least give them a chance to live.[/b]
I don't know where you are coming up with this.


Quote:
Basically you cannot KNOW how a life will turn out.[/b]
Neither can YOU! You can't paint this image that abortion is evil and criminal and adoption is rainbows, sunshine and skittles.
Quote:
Why deny a chance at life simply because there's a chance it'll turn bad? Why assume that abortion is the less of two evils based simply on meaningless numbers?[/b]
UNBELIEVABLE! So, abortion statistics are relevant and meaningful BUT statistics that concern the existing children are meaningless? These children and their circumstances are irrelevant? You just keep driving my point home.

Quote:
And up to what point yo udetermine that life's difficulties can determine what life is worth living and what's better off not existing?[/b]
I DON'T make that determination, I think the choice should be left to the pregnant woman.
Quote:
You talk about abuse and neglect... what about extreme poverty?[/b]
I don't even know what you are asking.
Quote:
In short: How can you say tha tabortion is the lesser of two evils w[/b]
Again, I am NOT choosing the lesser of two evils, I am pointing out that, for a pregnant woman, the choice between adoption and abortion can be HER choosing between the lesser of two evils. There are OTHER choices to advocate, as well, that avoid the traumas associated with abortion and adoption as the prevailing outcome.

Quote:
when you cannot know how a life will turn out and how the difficultiesand obstacles the person has to face will shape him?[/b]
And neither can you!
Quote:
I still see abortion as the greatest of the two evils here. Even with such a flawed system, happy families are still created.[/b]
Those rose colored glasses look nice on you.
Quote:
Children liek me, who could've ended up not even existed are having happy, fulfilling lives. And even those children who weren't that "lucky" (I don't really believe in luck) can have very good lives even after being victims of such atrocities.[/b]
Because YOUR experience says so?
Quote:
But however those lives turn out to be, at least they had a chance. And that's why, IMO, abortion is still worse. If you have the chance, you can do anything. If you're not even given that... well, sad really.[/b]
I know, I know. Who cares what happens to them after birth, their ALIVE!! Yeah! Problem solved.
Quote:
Anyone can get raped, abused, neglected, beaten or killed- foster care or not. So what are you saying? It's not just valuing the fetus' life, it's valuing ALL lifes, regardless of how the odds seem because ALL lifes deserve a chance. It's precisely not knowing what a life is worth that makes me (and I'm sure other pro-lifers) say that the least you can do when faced with the decision is give that life the chance.[/b]
Being alive makes it all better.


Quote:
You have me confused. Yes, PLers support adoption. Yes, PLers believe adoption is a much better solution than killing of the innocent. What exactly is the connection with the foster care system?? When a pregnant mother decides to give her baby up for adoption, that baby rarely ends up in the foster care system.[/b]
Healthy Caucasian infants rarely end up in foster care, other infants, especially those with physical defects and special needs, DO end up in foster care.
Quote:
Am I missing something in your first post??? Yes, there are thousands of babies and young children in foster care and many are waiting for adoption, but what does that have to do with the adoption/abortion debate?[/b]
And more evidence to prove my point. SAVE THE FETUS!
Quote:
Do you understand that many many children and infants who are in foster care may someday be reunited with their birth parents?[/b]
Quote:
you understand that is the main goal of the foster care system?[/b]
You understand that goals and outcomes aren't the same thing, don't you?
Point in Time. Of the estimated 523,000 children in foster care as of September 30, 2003, 46 percent were in nonrelative foster family homes, 23 percent were in relative foster homes, 19 percent were in group homes or institutions, 5 percent were in pre-adoptive homes, and 7 percent were in other placement types.

Trends. Placement type as of September 30 remained relatively unchanged between FY 1998 and FY 2003. Placement in relative foster homes showed the largest change, dropping 6 percentage points.

Exits. Of the estimated 281,000 children who exited foster care during FY 2003, 55 percent were reunified with parent(s) or primary caretaker(s), 18 percent were adopted, 15 percent went to live with a relative or guardian, 8 percent were emancipated, and 4 percent had other outcomes.4

Trends. The percentage of children adopted increased by 4 percent, while the percentage of children reunified with family decreased by 7 percent between FY 1998 and FY 2003. Overall, the percentage of children exiting foster care to a permanent family (i.e., reunification, adoption, or living with relative/guardian) remained about the same between the two periods.
Quote:
Just because a prolife person advocates adoption over abortion, it doesn't mean that prolifer necessarily agrees with the foster care system - they are totally different issues.[/b]
Not if an unwanted child is placed into the foster care system because the child is "unadoptable".
Quote:
YOU are the one that isn't making any sense when you say pro life people are really "pro-fetus" - why would an adopted baby get beaten, raped or neglected any more than a person living with his/her biological parents?[/b]
Yes, I forgot, adoption is perfect.
Quote:
Parents who adopt love those children just as if they were bio children - or again, are you confusing adoption with the foster care system??[/b]
No, not confusing the systems at all. The adoption system is a FOR PROFIT system, is a child is incapable of generating a profit they are put into foster care.
Exiled Mothers




Quote:
"Adoption, as we have known it, is a solution to a social problem: a child is in need of parents. Need cries out, adoption answers. In so doing, adoption serves the best interest of children--new lives are entering the world and without adoption, they would have no one to feed them, change them, love them, teach them."

TRUTH: Infant adoption is an industry in which young unwed (and thus powerless) parents are persuaded - through force, coercion or outright lies - to transfer parental rights of their children to older, more affluent couples (and sometimes also single people), and usually strangers.

Adoption exists for several reasons: to keep down the number of welfare recipients (i.e. single parents on welfare), for the North American adoption industry to profit (to the tune of $1.4 billion in 1999 alone) from the spending-power of the affluent, and (formerly) as a way of punishing young unwed mothers for their "loose and immoral" behaviour.

The adoption system is now virtually a North American phenomena - most other countries realize how barbaric it is toward mothers and children. However the North American adoption industry and pro-adoption lobby is well-financed and out-spoken. Young women and their children are easy prey for the expert marketing tactics that agencies and facilitators now use.[/b]
Quote:
"The choice to place a child for adoption is not easy. But neither is raising a child, or having an abortion."

No mother "chooses" adoption. Adoption is not a choice, it is what happens when there is no hope and no help. When a mother feels that there is no support to allow her to keep her child, or when she has been convinced that she could not be a good parent. Only abandoned mothers abandon babies. What befalls the mother befalls her child. Mother and child are forever linked - we cannot damage one without damaging the other. Society cannot ###### Mother without ######ing the Baby. The mother may think she can have her old life back, the way things were before she became a mother - but she cannot. She will discover that in losing her child to adoption, she has also lost her heart and soul.

The difference between adoption and abortion is that the grief from abortion is resolvable. There is closure. With adoption the grief intensifies over time. Post-traumatic stress syndrome is frequently experienced by mothers who have lost their babies to adoption.

The difference between raising a child is losing that child to adoption is that a woman who loses a child to adoption still has all the mothering instincts and feelings. She is a mother without her child. Raising a child is a responsibility and a joy, but losing a child to adoption is a never-ending loss.[/b]
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  #14  
April 1st, 2008, 11:40 AM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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"The point I am trying to make, as I have already stated, is that the PL movement doesn't concern themselves with the unwanted, abandoned, abused, neglected and dying children once they have been born. They don't advocate or lobby for a reform of the system that is responsible for committing egregious acts against the BORN infants and children, they are only concerned with what they consider to be a crime against a zygote, embryo or fetus."


StaceyC you seem very bitter and negative about adoption as a whole. I'm sorry if you had a bad experience with adoption or foster care sometime in your life. I don't think anybody would claim the foster care system is perfect. Personally I believe it is far from perfect but that is a whole other topic and has to do with how messed up our government is - big government = bigger problems. But I digress....
How can you say the Pro-Life movement doesnt concern themselves with children once born? Is that based on pro-lifers you see holding signs? based on the numbers you quoted? based on personal conversations? I don't see anything in your posts to back that up. That is a huge generalization. There are many many Christian, Catholic and non religious affiliated organizations to help these children - they are likely pro-life but the focus is to help those children. There are only so many hours in a day - some pro life people may fight the fight to promote life at the abortion stage while many others volunteer their time to helping children - many are foster parents themselves. You are making a huge generalization and I think it completely baseless.
I could just as easily say - the pro choice movement doesn't concern themselves at all with helping mothers and father's with grief counseling after they have aborted their baby. Hmmmm....off hand I think that statement might be accurate but I realize that I have not done sufficient research. Maybe planned parenthood does care about grief stricken mothers post abortion - I doubt it, but I'm not sure, therefore I wouldn't make such a statement.

You say there are negatives on both sides of the fence. Well, yeah, I'd say dying is a big fat negative. As for adoption being a negative - well, yes, nothing is perfect. You are throwing around a lot of numbers. I could just as easily give you a bunch of figures about bio parents who abuse their children. I don't think adoption is much different. Yes, many many children are abused and neglected. It is horrible. That is how many children end up in foster care to begin with. Our world is full of evil. Abortion is evil. Child abuse and neglect is evil. I would say killing is more evil than neglect or abuse but all of it is pretty evil.
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  #15  
April 1st, 2008, 11:42 AM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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.
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  #16  
April 1st, 2008, 12:24 PM
eash's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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I think many of you are confusing the adoption world with the foster care world. In the US, a healthy infant child very rarely enters the foster care system unless the parent's rights have not been revoked. A parent should have every right to amend their mistakes and reclaim their children.

Infant adoption is where the parent signs over their rights to their child at birth. If healthy, these children go directly into the adoptive family home. As someone who is in the adoption process as we speak, there are no healthy children, regardless of race, entering the foster care system. These children are in great demand and will go directly into a adoptive home. Adoption can be a for profit system (although most reputable agencies are non-profits) but many people (including myself) are willing to do anything to bring a healthy child into our home. We recognize our limitations and are not willing to choose a child with issues - call me selfish but that is life.

The problem with the system is when the child is not healthy. These children end up in the foster care system. The children who have parents who are trying (or not trying) to fix their issues have children that end up in the foster care system. As the child ages in the foster care system, their chance of adoption diminishes.

I get frustrated when PL'ers say adoption is the answer. My answer to them is go adopt the kids that no one else wants or become a foster mother. Don't preach a strong opinion, such as pro-life, without backing it up with action.
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  #17  
April 1st, 2008, 04:50 PM
Cereal Killer's Avatar I'm climbin' in yo window
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Margaret:
I have already addressed all of your statements in my previous post and the links I provided. If you are not willing to read all of the information, I am not going to continually repeat myself.

FTR-This is a debate, I am debating a topic. The fact that I have an opposing viewpoint from you is, in no way, indicative of my nature or experience. I am not bitter or negative, nor have I had any experience, good or bad, with the foster care system or the adoption industry. I am discussing a topic, period. This is not the "agreement board", it is the DEBATE board. Dissenting opinions are pretty common on this part of JM, as a matter of fact, it is the entire point of this board. If you could refrain from making personal assumptions and thinly veiled character assaults and stick to debating the topic, it would be appreciated.


Quote:
I think many of you are confusing the adoption world with the foster care world.[/b]
No, I am not confusing the two, just recognizing that there is an overlap.
Quote:
In the US, a healthy infant child very rarely enters the foster care system unless the parent's rights have not been revoked.[/b]
Emphasis mine.
Quote:
A parent should have every right to amend their mistakes and reclaim their children.[/b]
The sad truth is that most don't and significant portion of children put into foster care have been removed from their parent's homes without just cause. The Foster Care system generates revenue for local governments based on how many children they have in their custody and they make even more money when those children are adopted.
Fight CPS

Quote:
The problem with the system is when the child is not healthy. These children end up in the foster care system. The children who have parents who are trying (or not trying) to fix their issues have children that end up in the foster care system. As the child ages in the foster care system, their chance of adoption diminishes.

I get frustrated when PL'ers say adoption is the answer. My answer to them is go adopt the kids that no one else wants or become a foster mother. Don't preach a strong opinion, such as pro-life, without backing it up with action.[/b]
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  #18  
April 1st, 2008, 05:15 PM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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I am very aware that this is a board for debating. I guess I am just used to people backing up a particular position. Silly me.
I'm simply asking you to back up this statement:

"the PL movement doesn't concern themselves with the unwanted, abandoned, abused, neglected and dying children once they have been born"

You asked me to stop making assumptions about you personally. I will. Now, please stop making assumptions about the pro-life movement unless you can back it up.
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"Authentic love is not a vague sentiment or a blind passion. It is an inner attitude that involves the whole human person. It is looking to the other, not to use but to serve. It is rejoicing when the other rejoices and suffers when the other suffers. Love is the gift of self." JPII
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  #19  
April 2nd, 2008, 11:45 AM
*JustDani&B*'s Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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I just want to say, Stacey, that you are a wonderful debater and do a very good job of outlining and expressing your point. You have one of the most influentional arguments I've heard on either side of the fence. You've touched on a lot of points I've always had in my head but struggled to portray in words. Great job. I especially like your constant affrimation of your belief in the CHOICE, not necessarily just the moral debate of "right" vs. "wrong." That's everything PC stands for.
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  #20  
April 2nd, 2008, 12:03 PM
*JustDani&B*'s Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
"The point I am trying to make, as I have already stated, is that the PL movement doesn't concern themselves with the unwanted, abandoned, abused, neglected and dying children once they have been born. They don't advocate or lobby for a reform of the system that is responsible for committing egregious acts against the BORN infants and children, they are only concerned with what they consider to be a crime against a zygote, embryo or fetus."



I could just as easily say - the pro choice movement doesn't concern themselves at all with helping mothers and father's with grief counseling after they have aborted their baby. Hmmmm....off hand I think that statement might be accurate but I realize that I have not done sufficient research. Maybe planned parenthood does care about grief stricken mothers post abortion - I doubt it, but I'm not sure, therefore I wouldn't make such a statement.[/b]
Actually, abortion advocates more than take care of their own. The clinics provide longterm care including health screenings and checkups for aftercare. They have hotlines setup directly connected to their staff 24/7 for grief counseling. They also provide referrals to several support groups, therapy sessions/groups, and psychiatrists that specialize in this field. Most clinics also provide an extensive list of online support groups if they're is a comfort issue with person to person contact. Actually, JM provides a support group. They are required to provide counseling and "weed out" those they feel are being pushed into a decision. They are required to schedule appointments at least 24 hours after the pregnant woman receives this education in case she changes her mind after knowing the details. They also go through different forms of BC and explain them thoroughly. Most clinics provide free BC as one of their services to keep women from having to make this decision. They also provide a prescription and are available to call in case of emergency for the morning-after pill. They explain the full procedure in detail with pictures. They tell you exactly what happens and how it will feel bluntly. There is no sunshine and flowers tactic. There's your info on the topic.
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