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Justifying abortion


Abortion Debate

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  #1  
November 15th, 2008, 02:08 PM
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I am strictly pro-life and just wondering how abortion can be justified?


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  #2  
November 15th, 2008, 07:03 PM
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Abortion isn't a cut and dry subject. Even a miscarriage is an abortion. (Just usually not by choice.) Almost everyone is pro-life but not everyone is in the position to take care of a child or themselves while they grow a child within them. If you asked most women who have had an abortion, they would have preferred to be in a position to have kept the baby in some way. While many people think abortion is a cop-out, there are many children in foster care, women shelters and adoption agencies not by choice. Now the answer isn't always abortion but the subject of abortion is even bigger than that. Most of the rights to an abortion is just simple choice over reproductive healthcare and an invasion of a women's internal organs. It becomes so complicated when someone else tells someone else what they should or shouldn't do with their bodies in order to keep a life. Children starving and dying is a horrible crime but it happens daily too. There are wars that kill many people and that's equally horrible. Education should be a basic right but many people don't get it so how can we educate everyone about sex education and prevent all unwanted pregnancies? Abortion is just another example of pointing the finger at women in general because that's an easier target. It would be more productive to do what they can to make the world a better place in many other areas..

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  #3  
November 15th, 2008, 07:55 PM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
I am strictly pro-life and just wondering how abortion can be justified?


[/b]

I think it comes down to how people view the unborn child. If you don't believe it to be a person yet then why try and protect it? If you believe it to be a person but not of equal value to the mother than why shouldn't the mother be able to terminate the pregnancy if desired or for health reasons? If you believe the unborn child to be a person and a person having just as much value as any other person than it doesn't matter (not to sound uncaring because that isn't the case) what the circumstances are - that child has a right to life.
That is why I think it is usually unproductive to have abortion debates. I completely agree that if the unborn baby has less value or no value than the emotional, physical, financial etc situation of the mother should trump that "potential" life. I believe that all human life is equal so therefore any argument about rape, freedom of choice, reproductive freedom etc etc will never change my mind because those things don't trump life.
So, to answer your question, I think abortion can easily be justified or impossible to justify depending on the value given to the unborn baby.
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  #4  
November 15th, 2008, 10:18 PM
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There are over 500,000 children in the foster care system waiting to be adopted. Less than half of those kids get adopted each year. Children in foster care are three to six times more likely than children not in care to have emotional, behavioral and developmental problems, including conduct disorders, depression, difficulties in school and impaired social relationships. Children died as a result of abuse in foster care 5.25 times more often than children in the general population. That alone should be justification for a woman to abort the fetus before it is aware of life and can feel pain, as opposed to sticking it in foster care where it is VERY likely that it will be abused and set up to fail for life.

Then there is the simple fact that no one person has more of a right to live than another. In the US over 90,000 need LIFESAVING organ transplants, yet obviously it is entirely ridiculous to walk up to someone on the street and demand they hand over a liver or a kidney because someone else's life depends on it. But we can demand a woman risks her life and health because the fetuses life depends on it?
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  #5  
November 16th, 2008, 06:42 AM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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There are over 500,000 children in the foster care system waiting to be adopted. Less than half of those kids get adopted each year. Children in foster care are three to six times more likely than children not in care to have emotional, behavioral and developmental problems, including conduct disorders, depression, difficulties in school and impaired social relationships. Children died as a result of abuse in foster care 5.25 times more often than children in the general population. That alone should be justification for a woman to abort the fetus before it is aware of life and can feel pain, as opposed to sticking it in foster care where it is VERY likely that it will be abused and set up to fail for life.

Then there is the simple fact that no one person has more of a right to live than another. In the US over 90,000 need LIFESAVING organ transplants, yet obviously it is entirely ridiculous to walk up to someone on the street and demand they hand over a liver or a kidney because someone else's life depends on it. But we can demand a woman risks her life and health because the fetuses life depends on it?[/b]

So, because a child who might otherwise be aborted, MIGHT end up in foster care, and then MIGHT have problems and MIGHT be abused it justifies abortion? I still think that only works if you don't value that life as much as other lives. Because if your criteria for valuing life is simply whether that life will be a good one -Why not let the child live and then kill the child after it is determined he or she will have a bad life or end up in foster care? What is the difference? then at least you are giving the child a chance? what - that you think unborn babies don't feel pain? well I'd love to see credable research to back that up but you can kill people in painless ways so that isn't an excuse to kill before rather than after birth.

As for your example - nice try but if I need a transplant I have no connection to just anyone on the street. Also, humans don't have a right to be kept alive but they do have a right to LIFE. That means you can't KILL someone but that doesn't mean that I have a RIGHT to a organ transplant in order to stay alive. Let's say you are holding a brand new baby and someone approaches you and points a gun at your head and says - kill your baby or I will kill you! That is a much closer example to that of abortion than your example of attacking a stranger on the street for an organ! Oh, and it would be illegal to kill your baby in that example even if you had a gun touching your head!! But it sounds from your first statement that you agree with me - "no one person has more of a right to live than another" or are you saying because the mom is stronger and can kill the baby first she wins?
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  #6  
November 16th, 2008, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
I am strictly pro-life and just wondering how abortion can be justified?


[/b]

I can totally respect your pro-life stance. I am personally pro-life myself. (But politically pro-choice, if that makes sense.)

However: "How can it be justified" isn't really a fair question. Every woman that has had an abortion has it for different reasons. Every woman's "justification" is different. There is no way to really know every single situation, and therefore it's not really anyone's right to judge if that "justification" is valid or not.

I am also of the opinion that while abortion is a legal practice, it doesn't NEED to be justified to you or anyone else. It can be debated whether or not it should be legal, but while it is, no one owes anyone an explanation.


I know that came off sounding a little harsh, but while I don't like abortion, and I hate that it happens, it is NOT a cut and dry situation where the mother goes to the clinic to have an abortion in the morning, and is out shopping for new shoes in the afternoon (most of the time.) I think it is unfair to pin all mothers that have abortions as cold, unfeeling murderers who don't value any life but their own.



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  #7  
November 16th, 2008, 04:27 PM
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Just from an evolutionary viewpoint, an organism always strives to protect itself first and foremost, and then any offspring. If an organism feels that their life or way of life is in jeopardy, it seems reasonable that they would want an abortion.

I'm completely pro-choice. There's no soul, there's the potential for a baby. I'd rather someone make an intelligent decision to abort the growing fetus than make an emotional decision to keep the developing fetus and screw up its life.
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  #8  
November 16th, 2008, 08:12 PM
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I agree with what others have said. It's not as cut and dry as it may seem. I know that I PERSONALLY could never have an abortion, but that doesn't mean that I can't see some other mother's justification for it. I think it'd be better to have an abortion than for a child to be abused his/her entire life, or end up in foster care or something else as terrible, but I'm not saying that I would do that myself.
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  #9  
November 17th, 2008, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
I am strictly pro-life and just wondering how abortion can be justified?


[/b]

I think it comes down to how people view the unborn child. If you don't believe it to be a person yet then why try and protect it? If you believe it to be a person but not of equal value to the mother than why shouldn't the mother be able to terminate the pregnancy if desired or for health reasons? If you believe the unborn child to be a person and a person having just as much value as any other person than it doesn't matter (not to sound uncaring because that isn't the case) what the circumstances are - that child has a right to life.
That is why I think it is usually unproductive to have abortion debates. I completely agree that if the unborn baby has less value or no value than the emotional, physical, financial etc situation of the mother should trump that "potential" life. I believe that all human life is equal so therefore any argument about rape, freedom of choice, reproductive freedom etc etc will never change my mind because those things don't trump life.
So, to answer your question, I think abortion can easily be justified or impossible to justify depending on the value given to the unborn baby.
[/b]

If we are going to argue that it is okay to put a value on some ones life then it becomes ok for some one to kill a new born baby because they have put a lower value on their life? Hitler had his own values towards the Jews and acted accorded to those values therefore everything he did was perfectly justified?

Do we have any right to put a value on any persons life? I would not say that the homeless person who lives near my house is less than me so I can kill him because he would be better off dead?


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  #10  
November 17th, 2008, 01:40 PM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I am strictly pro-life and just wondering how abortion can be justified?


[/b]

I think it comes down to how people view the unborn child. If you don't believe it to be a person yet then why try and protect it? If you believe it to be a person but not of equal value to the mother than why shouldn't the mother be able to terminate the pregnancy if desired or for health reasons? If you believe the unborn child to be a person and a person having just as much value as any other person than it doesn't matter (not to sound uncaring because that isn't the case) what the circumstances are - that child has a right to life.
That is why I think it is usually unproductive to have abortion debates. I completely agree that if the unborn baby has less value or no value than the emotional, physical, financial etc situation of the mother should trump that "potential" life. I believe that all human life is equal so therefore any argument about rape, freedom of choice, reproductive freedom etc etc will never change my mind because those things don't trump life.
So, to answer your question, I think abortion can easily be justified or impossible to justify depending on the value given to the unborn baby.
[/b]

If we are going to argue that it is okay to put a value on some ones life then it becomes ok for some one to kill a new born baby because they have put a lower value on their life? Hitler had his own values towards the Jews and acted accorded to those values therefore everything he did was perfectly justified?

Do we have any right to put a value on any persons life? I would not say that the homeless person who lives near my house is less than me so I can kill him because he would be better off dead?
[/b]
I can't tell if you misunderstood me or if you are agreeing with me
I agree that we cannot put a value on human life - all life is equal. Abortion is essentially saying that the life of the baby is not equal to the life or freedom of choice of the mother. I agree this is a slippery slope and will only lead to greater disrespect for human life.
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"Authentic love is not a vague sentiment or a blind passion. It is an inner attitude that involves the whole human person. It is looking to the other, not to use but to serve. It is rejoicing when the other rejoices and suffers when the other suffers. Love is the gift of self." JPII
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  #11  
November 17th, 2008, 01:50 PM
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I "justify" abortion because I think making abortion illegal would be a terrible thing. Making abortion illegal isn't going to end the procedure forever, but make it unsafe and dangerous for women. I think by ensuring that women have safe resources is better for society than making it illegal.
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  #12  
November 17th, 2008, 05:37 PM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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I "justify" abortion because I think making abortion illegal would be a terrible thing. Making abortion illegal isn't going to end the procedure forever, but make it unsafe and dangerous for women. I think by ensuring that women have safe resources is better for society than making it illegal.[/b]

Making abortion legal has made the womb an "unsafe and dangerous" place for all babies!
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"Authentic love is not a vague sentiment or a blind passion. It is an inner attitude that involves the whole human person. It is looking to the other, not to use but to serve. It is rejoicing when the other rejoices and suffers when the other suffers. Love is the gift of self." JPII
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  #13  
November 17th, 2008, 05:45 PM
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Margret maybe you put a type then as it said you think abortion can be justfied did you mean to put can't lol!



I think in modern society (at least in the developed world) abortion is used as a contreception (I know this from hearing stories from friends) which i think is wrong! Killing innocent babies because the mother couldn't keep her legs shut! I know not all cases of unwanted pregnancies are like that but is it ever the babies fault? Who are we to start "playing God" deciding who can enter the world and who can't.


If when you'r baby was one week old your husband left you and you had no money would you kill that child so it did not have to suffer? To me this is the same as abortion. If a premmie baby at the age of 24 weeks can live surley the fact in some countires, states that allow abortion to happen at this stage is just wrong!

There is no evidence as to when a sperm and egg become a living thing, so we should assume that this happens from conception.
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  #14  
November 17th, 2008, 09:41 PM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
Quote:
I am strictly pro-life and just wondering how abortion can be justified?


[/b]

I think it comes down to how people view the unborn child. If you don't believe it to be a person yet then why try and protect it? If you believe it to be a person but not of equal value to the mother than why shouldn't the mother be able to terminate the pregnancy if desired or for health reasons? If you believe the unborn child to be a person and a person having just as much value as any other person than it doesn't matter (not to sound uncaring because that isn't the case) what the circumstances are - that child has a right to life.
That is why I think it is usually unproductive to have abortion debates. I completely agree that if the unborn baby has less value or no value than the emotional, physical, financial etc situation of the mother should trump that "potential" life. I believe that all human life is equal so therefore any argument about rape, freedom of choice, reproductive freedom etc etc will never change my mind because those things don't trump life.
So, to answer your question, I think abortion can easily be justified or impossible to justify depending on the value given to the unborn baby.
[/b]
So what do you think of tubal pgs where the baby is still alive & is either removed surgically or by inducing mc via medications in order to try to save the tube? Those are in effect technically abortions according to the definition often put out here as they take place prior to fetal demise.
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We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters. ~Gloria Steinem

If a man has been his mother's undisputed darling he retains throughout life the triumphant feeling, the confidence in success, which not seldom brings actual success along with it. ~Sigmund Freud
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Don't wait to make your son a great man - make him a great boy. ~Author Unknown
You don't raise heroes, you raise sons. And if you treat them like sons, they'll turn out to be heroes, even if it's just in your own eyes. ~Walter M. Schirra, Sr.
A man loves his sweetheart the most, his wife the best, but his mother the longest. ~Irish Proverb
Mother's love is peace. It need not be acquired, it need not be deserved. ~Erich Fromm
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it. - Harold Hulbert
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  #15  
November 17th, 2008, 10:47 PM
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So, because a child who might otherwise be aborted, MIGHT end up in foster care, and then MIGHT have problems and MIGHT be abused it justifies abortion?[/b]
Hmm... yeap pretty much.

Quote:
I still think that only works if you don't value that life as much as other lives.[/b]
I don't veiw a fetus as a life at all.

Quote:
Because if your criteria for valuing life is simply whether that life will be a good one -Why not let the child live and then kill the child after it is determined he or she will have a bad life or end up in foster care? What is the difference?[/b]
The difference is that child is a child. It has a life and is protected under the law as a born individual.

Quote:
then at least you are giving the child a chance? what - that you think unborn babies don't feel pain? well I'd love to see credable research to back that up but you can kill people in painless ways so that isn't an excuse to kill before rather than after birth.[/b]
Prove to me with credible research that a fetus can feel pain before the point of viability, after which abortion is illegal. You can't, because science has yet to figure out at what point a fetus can feel pain stimuli. I choose to believe they can't, for the simple reason that babies born at 21 weeks gestation don't react to pain stimuli. I fail to understand how a fetus that is less developed than micro-preemies are able to feel pain and then somehow lose that ability after birth And again, a person is a person, and protected as such, once they are BORN. Except for a few states where if you cause a pregnant woman to lose her pregnancy you can be charged with murder - but that is only after the point of viability so a moot point anyways.



Quote:
As for your example - nice try but if I need a transplant I have no connection to just anyone on the street.[/b]
Your mother then. Would you have the right to demand her to hand over a body part, and force her to put health and her life at risk to save yours?

Quote:
Also, humans don't have a right to be kept alive but they do have a right to LIFE. That means you can't KILL someone but that doesn't mean that I have a RIGHT to a organ transplant in order to stay alive.[/b]
But a pregnancy is the same thing. The fetus relies on leeching off the mother to survive. If the fetus has the right to "life" and that right overrides the mothers right to person bodily integrity, then why doesn't your right to life override any other born person's right to bodily integrity?

Quote:
Let's say you are holding a brand new baby and someone approaches you and points a gun at your head and says - kill your baby or I will kill you! That is a much closer example to that of abortion than your example of attacking a stranger on the street for an organ! Oh, and it would be illegal to kill your baby in that example even if you had a gun touching your head!![/b]
Yes, because that baby is born. Which a fetus is not. So it isn't like abortion at all

Quote:
But it sounds from your first statement that you agree with me - "no one person has more of a right to live than another" or are you saying because the mom is stronger and can kill the baby first she wins?[/b]
No, I'm saying because the mother is a born person and has the right to say what she does and does not want to go in and come out of her body, she wins
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  #16  
November 18th, 2008, 03:40 AM
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Surley if there is NO evidence as to when a baby can feel pain you must act as though it always can.

One woman, 8 weeks pregnants has a miscarriage to her that little baby was a really thing and she will be heartbroken. how can that be any different? Just because that baby was wanted?

Do we have any right to put a vaule on that child? Just because it is not born and can not speak for it's self. Abortion has been wrong through out history, but all of a sudden it has changed, I guess due to technology. But all that it means is that less and less people face up to their responsibilites! (Obvioulsy I will say again I don't aim this at people in rape situations.)

IF abortion was illegeal there would have to be better facilities for adoption, if they where there then alot more people would have children and a lot less young girls would have to go through the traumatic exeperince off an abortion.

As soon as the sperm hits the egg it becomes a living human being, it might not look much like one or beable to do anything but it is! It has all the potential to go on to become a tiny little innocent new born baby, it is a tiny innocent baby.
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  #17  
November 18th, 2008, 05:52 AM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
Surley if there is NO evidence as to when a baby can feel pain you must act as though it always can.

One woman, 8 weeks pregnants has a miscarriage to her that little baby was a really thing and she will be heartbroken. how can that be any different? Just because that baby was wanted?

Do we have any right to put a vaule on that child? Just because it is not born and can not speak for it's self. Abortion has been wrong through out history, but all of a sudden it has changed, I guess due to technology. But all that it means is that less and less people face up to their responsibilites! (Obvioulsy I will say again I don't aim this at people in rape situations.)

IF abortion was illegeal there would have to be better facilities for adoption, if they where there then alot more people would have children and a lot less young girls would have to go through the traumatic exeperince off an abortion.

As soon as the sperm hits the egg it becomes a living human being, it might not look much like one or beable to do anything but it is! It has all the potential to go on to become a tiny little innocent new born baby, it is a tiny innocent baby.[/b]
To the bolded - that isn't necessarily the case. I will have to come back later as I have to leave for work..... but in no way has it "always" been thought to be wrong. I can give you just this link for now: http://www.allaboutpopularissues.org/histo...bortion-faq.htm but basically - there was a time when a woman could abort without the church even having much issue with it.... I am not trying to argue either side of this - but rather that it isn't clear like you say.

As far as mc vs abortion & whether teh grief one feels is real - of course it is. I have lost babies & I can tell you my grief is very real. I can also tell you though that I have women close to me that have aborted that also feel real grief....which is why I would not be able to judge them. For them I think in the long run it is likely harder - since for me I had no choice in the matter & I can come to terms with that. I think for others the decision is tough to deal with on top of the others things they feel.
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We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters. ~Gloria Steinem

If a man has been his mother's undisputed darling he retains throughout life the triumphant feeling, the confidence in success, which not seldom brings actual success along with it. ~Sigmund Freud
My mom is a neverending song in my heart of comfort, happiness, and being. I may sometimes forget the words but I always remember the tune. ~Graycie Harmon
Don't wait to make your son a great man - make him a great boy. ~Author Unknown
You don't raise heroes, you raise sons. And if you treat them like sons, they'll turn out to be heroes, even if it's just in your own eyes. ~Walter M. Schirra, Sr.
A man loves his sweetheart the most, his wife the best, but his mother the longest. ~Irish Proverb
Mother's love is peace. It need not be acquired, it need not be deserved. ~Erich Fromm
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it. - Harold Hulbert
Mother is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children. ~William Makepeace Thackeray
God could not be everywhere, so he created mothers. ~Jewish Proverb
The best conversations with mothers always take place in silence, when only the heart speaks. ~Carrie Latet




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  #18  
November 18th, 2008, 06:18 AM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
Quote:
So, because a child who might otherwise be aborted, MIGHT end up in foster care, and then MIGHT have problems and MIGHT be abused it justifies abortion?[/b]
Hmm... yeap pretty much.

Quote:
I still think that only works if you don't value that life as much as other lives.[/b]
I don't veiw a fetus as a life at all.

Quote:
Because if your criteria for valuing life is simply whether that life will be a good one -Why not let the child live and then kill the child after it is determined he or she will have a bad life or end up in foster care? What is the difference?[/b]
The difference is that child is a child. It has a life and is protected under the law as a born individual.

Quote:
then at least you are giving the child a chance? what - that you think unborn babies don't feel pain? well I'd love to see credable research to back that up but you can kill people in painless ways so that isn't an excuse to kill before rather than after birth.[/b]
Prove to me with credible research that a fetus can feel pain before the point of viability, after which abortion is illegal. You can't, because science has yet to figure out at what point a fetus can feel pain stimuli. I choose to believe they can't, for the simple reason that babies born at 21 weeks gestation don't react to pain stimuli. I fail to understand how a fetus that is less developed than micro-preemies are able to feel pain and then somehow lose that ability after birth And again, a person is a person, and protected as such, once they are BORN. Except for a few states where if you cause a pregnant woman to lose her pregnancy you can be charged with murder - but that is only after the point of viability so a moot point anyways.



Quote:
As for your example - nice try but if I need a transplant I have no connection to just anyone on the street.[/b]
Your mother then. Would you have the right to demand her to hand over a body part, and force her to put health and her life at risk to save yours?

Quote:
Also, humans don't have a right to be kept alive but they do have a right to LIFE. That means you can't KILL someone but that doesn't mean that I have a RIGHT to a organ transplant in order to stay alive.[/b]
But a pregnancy is the same thing. The fetus relies on leeching off the mother to survive. If the fetus has the right to "life" and that right overrides the mothers right to person bodily integrity, then why doesn't your right to life override any other born person's right to bodily integrity?

Quote:
Let's say you are holding a brand new baby and someone approaches you and points a gun at your head and says - kill your baby or I will kill you! That is a much closer example to that of abortion than your example of attacking a stranger on the street for an organ! Oh, and it would be illegal to kill your baby in that example even if you had a gun touching your head!![/b]
Yes, because that baby is born. Which a fetus is not. So it isn't like abortion at all

Quote:
But it sounds from your first statement that you agree with me - "no one person has more of a right to live than another" or are you saying because the mom is stronger and can kill the baby first she wins?[/b]
No, I'm saying because the mother is a born person and has the right to say what she does and does not want to go in and come out of her body, she wins
[/b]

If you read my original post on this thread I said that if a personal does not value the life of an unborn baby than of course abortion can be justified. You and I can never agree as long as we differ on that original premise.
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  #19  
November 18th, 2008, 06:26 AM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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I am strictly pro-life and just wondering how abortion can be justified?


[/b]

I think it comes down to how people view the unborn child. If you don't believe it to be a person yet then why try and protect it? If you believe it to be a person but not of equal value to the mother than why shouldn't the mother be able to terminate the pregnancy if desired or for health reasons? If you believe the unborn child to be a person and a person having just as much value as any other person than it doesn't matter (not to sound uncaring because that isn't the case) what the circumstances are - that child has a right to life.
That is why I think it is usually unproductive to have abortion debates. I completely agree that if the unborn baby has less value or no value than the emotional, physical, financial etc situation of the mother should trump that "potential" life. I believe that all human life is equal so therefore any argument about rape, freedom of choice, reproductive freedom etc etc will never change my mind because those things don't trump life.
So, to answer your question, I think abortion can easily be justified or impossible to justify depending on the value given to the unborn baby.
[/b]
So what do you think of tubal pgs where the baby is still alive & is either removed surgically or by inducing mc via medications in order to try to save the tube? Those are in effect technically abortions according to the definition often put out here as they take place prior to fetal demise.
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Oh boy - I've tried to explain this in the past without much luck but I will give you a brief explination. I believe that in those instances a person should have their tube removed. It is the rupture of the tube that presents the risk to the mother. The unintended consequence is that the baby dies but instead of killing the baby one allows the baby to die by removing the actual threat to the mother - the tube.


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Surley if there is NO evidence as to when a baby can feel pain you must act as though it always can.

One woman, 8 weeks pregnants has a miscarriage to her that little baby was a really thing and she will be heartbroken. how can that be any different? Just because that baby was wanted?

Do we have any right to put a vaule on that child? Just because it is not born and can not speak for it's self. Abortion has been wrong through out history, but all of a sudden it has changed, I guess due to technology. But all that it means is that less and less people face up to their responsibilites! (Obvioulsy I will say again I don't aim this at people in rape situations.)

IF abortion was illegeal there would have to be better facilities for adoption, if they where there then alot more people would have children and a lot less young girls would have to go through the traumatic exeperince off an abortion.

As soon as the sperm hits the egg it becomes a living human being, it might not look much like one or beable to do anything but it is! It has all the potential to go on to become a tiny little innocent new born baby, it is a tiny innocent baby.[/b]
To the bolded - that isn't necessarily the case. I will have to come back later as I have to leave for work..... but in no way has it "always" been thought to be wrong. I can give you just this link for now: http://www.allaboutpopularissues.org/histo...bortion-faq.htm but basically - there was a time when a woman could abort without the church even having much issue with it.... I am not trying to argue either side of this - but rather that it isn't clear like you say.

As far as mc vs abortion & whether teh grief one feels is real - of course it is. I have lost babies & I can tell you my grief is very real. I can also tell you though that I have women close to me that have aborted that also feel real grief....which is why I would not be able to judge them. For them I think in the long run it is likely harder - since for me I had no choice in the matter & I can come to terms with that. I think for others the decision is tough to deal with on top of the others things they feel.
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When you say "church" not sure if you mean the Catholic Church but if so, you are dead wrong. Heck - if you paid attention to this election at all that misconsception should have been all cleared up. Nanci Pelosi tried to argue that same thing as did Biden I think, and Bishop after Bishop gave evidence and used Church documents to show that abortion as ALWAYS been wrong in the Church.
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"Authentic love is not a vague sentiment or a blind passion. It is an inner attitude that involves the whole human person. It is looking to the other, not to use but to serve. It is rejoicing when the other rejoices and suffers when the other suffers. Love is the gift of self." JPII
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  #20  
November 18th, 2008, 10:33 AM
Platinum Supermommy
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I am a Christian and have also studied the history of Christian doctrines, abortion has always been considered wrong within the church, as it is forbidden in the Bible.


To go back to if a person does not value the un born babies life than abortion can be justified, that means that I can say that my sons life has no value and kill him. And that every person that has been killed through out history it can be justified because their life have less value.
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