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View Poll Results: Are you pro-life ro pro-choice?
pro-life 120 51.50%
pro-choice 113 48.50%
Voters: 233. You may not vote on this poll

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  #42  
April 23rd, 2009, 10:36 AM
CartersMommy's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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[QUOTE=Mammamelli;15230165]Actually, I have friends that tried very hard to get pregnant. When they FINALLY did after months of trying, they were devistated to learn mid-way through the pregnancy that the baby had several severe medical conditions that the doctors said would make it impossible to carry the baby to term, let alone live through the birth. The options were to wait until the baby died in utero and have to give birth vaginally to a still born child or to have a d&c and spare mom any more torment. They chose to spare mom any more torment.

I would never ever say that these parents "killed their child". It was an agonizing decision for them, and to top it off, they only told me and one other person that they had to do this because they didn't want people on the pro-life side to give them crap while they were grieving. Just because they chose to spare the mom and the child any further pain does not make them "killers", and it would have been aweful for them to have to listen to that kind of crap on top of loosing a child that they so desperately wanted in the first place.
/QUOTE]


You have no idea if that baby was or was not going to die YOU can never be sure, the doctors could never be sure and the parents could NEVER be sure, until the babies heart stopped beating. Just because they told the parents the baby was going to die, is IMO NO reason to have an abortion.

I also have a friend, who at 20 weeks her fetus was diagnosed with trisomy 18 and multiple heart defects, she was told the EXACT thing your friend was told.......she chose to let the baby live until she died on her own and now her beautiful daughter is 6 weeks old and has NO trisomy 18, she has many other conditions but is bring joy to everyone around her!! I think yes it was an awful situation, that I would not wish on the worlds worst enemy, but they made the decision to do that to spare them pain, what if the baby would have lived, nothing on this world is 100%

I am sure you can all tell I am extremley pro life!!
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  #43  
April 23rd, 2009, 10:46 AM
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  #44  
April 23rd, 2009, 12:13 PM
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Pro- choice because I dont want the govt. to start telling people what the can and can not do with their body. I would never get a abortion for any reason, but I am still pro choice.
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  #45  
April 23rd, 2009, 09:01 PM
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im pro life.. i do not agree with it. BUT its not my place or anyone elses to tell a woman what to do with her body. if she has an abortion than she is the one that has to live with that decision who am i to judge someone by the things they do.

i had a friend whos daughter died at 23hrs, the doctor tried to get her to have an abortion from the time they found out what was wrong with her (her fluid was low does that sound right?) she did not have the abortion because she just thought what if my baby lives thru this knowing the doctors did not expect it to happen, in that case i feel like i would have done the same thing. it would be hard to have a baby and then it pass a few days later,but i think i could live with myself better knowing i gave it a chance rather than just aborting it.
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  #46  
April 24th, 2009, 02:07 PM
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I'm pro-life.
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  #47  
April 25th, 2009, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CartersMommy View Post
You have no idea if that baby was or was not going to die YOU can never be sure, the doctors could never be sure and the parents could NEVER be sure, until the babies heart stopped beating. Just because they told the parents the baby was going to die, is IMO NO reason to have an abortion.

I also have a friend, who at 20 weeks her fetus was diagnosed with trisomy 18 and multiple heart defects, she was told the EXACT thing your friend was told.......she chose to let the baby live until she died on her own and now her beautiful daughter is 6 weeks old and has NO trisomy 18, she has many other conditions but is bring joy to everyone around her!! I think yes it was an awful situation, that I would not wish on the worlds worst enemy, but they made the decision to do that to spare them pain, what if the baby would have lived, nothing on this world is 100%

I am sure you can all tell I am extremley pro life!!

Was your friend diagnosed via marker test and ultrasound or via amnio? There is always a chance that the test are wrong, until you actually look at the genetic make up of the baby. 3 copies of the 18th chromosome means a Trisomy. These tests are run more than once from the same sample, so that way there is no mistaking.

If your friend had an amnio and her baby was born fine, they should consider genetic testing on her now... I say this, because my ex, who lives a perfectly normal life, has Trisomy 8 (the partial kind) and it doesn't affect him at all, but it affects his children in the complete form... all 3 of them who were lost because of it (my twins and his daughter who was stillborn last year). He didn't know until he lost his daughter that he even had it.
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  #48  
April 25th, 2009, 11:22 AM
irishxrose
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[quote=CartersMommy;15503637]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mammamelli View Post
Actually, I have friends that tried very hard to get pregnant. When they FINALLY did after months of trying, they were devistated to learn mid-way through the pregnancy that the baby had several severe medical conditions that the doctors said would make it impossible to carry the baby to term, let alone live through the birth. The options were to wait until the baby died in utero and have to give birth vaginally to a still born child or to have a d&c and spare mom any more torment. They chose to spare mom any more torment.

I would never ever say that these parents "killed their child". It was an agonizing decision for them, and to top it off, they only told me and one other person that they had to do this because they didn't want people on the pro-life side to give them crap while they were grieving. Just because they chose to spare the mom and the child any further pain does not make them "killers", and it would have been aweful for them to have to listen to that kind of crap on top of loosing a child that they so desperately wanted in the first place.
/QUOTE]


You have no idea if that baby was or was not going to die YOU can never be sure, the doctors could never be sure and the parents could NEVER be sure, until the babies heart stopped beating. Just because they told the parents the baby was going to die, is IMO NO reason to have an abortion.

I also have a friend, who at 20 weeks her fetus was diagnosed with trisomy 18 and multiple heart defects, she was told the EXACT thing your friend was told.......she chose to let the baby live until she died on her own and now her beautiful daughter is 6 weeks old and has NO trisomy 18, she has many other conditions but is bring joy to everyone around her!! I think yes it was an awful situation, that I would not wish on the worlds worst enemy, but they made the decision to do that to spare them pain, what if the baby would have lived, nothing on this world is 100%

I am sure you can all tell I am extremley pro life!!


The only thing I will say is that you have no idea what you would do if you were in those shoes, and had to deal with a pregnancy and a fetus that had a 100% mortality (that means fatal) rate disease. You have no idea what those parents go through. I can't even imagine the pain and heartache these parents have when they recieve the news their child has a 100% mortality rate disease and that they are either dead or certain to be dying. You really don't get it; there are many diseases out there that can KILL for CERTAIN, and it's not as simple as "you don't know so it doesn't make abortion okay at all!!!" yeah, whatever. It's not like the down syndrome example, these things actually WILL KILL THE CHILD. No ifs ands or buts. You have no idea. You really don't. You also don't have the right to judge others for those decisions. It's for the woman and her doctor to decide, not you or anyone else proclaiming to be pro-life.

I sincerely hope none of the posters who made such disturbing statements in this thread never have to go through such an ordeal, or have to have an abortion because they have an ectopic pregnancy. Cause you know, that's the procedure that saves the mother's life when there is an ectopic pregnancy that will ultimately kill not only the fetus, but the mother as well. I'm just saying... I can't understand the need to judge others for such heartaching situations when they recieve such news. Compassion for others seems to be lacking. Sigh.
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  #49  
April 25th, 2009, 01:15 PM
CartersMommy's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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[QUOTE=irishxrose;15532056]
Quote:
Originally Posted by CartersMommy View Post



The only thing I will say is that you have no idea what you would do if you were in those shoes, and had to deal with a pregnancy and a fetus that had a 100% mortality (that means fatal) rate disease. You have no idea what those parents go through. I can't even imagine the pain and heartache these parents have when they recieve the news their child has a 100% mortality rate disease and that they are either dead or certain to be dying. You really don't get it; there are many diseases out there that can KILL for CERTAIN, and it's not as simple as "you don't know so it doesn't make abortion okay at all!!!" yeah, whatever. It's not like the down syndrome example, these things actually WILL KILL THE CHILD. No ifs ands or buts. You have no idea. You really don't. You also don't have the right to judge others for those decisions. It's for the woman and her doctor to decide, not you or anyone else proclaiming to be pro-life.

I sincerely hope none of the posters who made such disturbing statements in this thread never have to go through such an ordeal, or have to have an abortion because they have an ectopic pregnancy. Cause you know, that's the procedure that saves the mother's life when there is an ectopic pregnancy that will ultimately kill not only the fetus, but the mother as well. I'm just saying... I can't understand the need to judge others for such heartaching situations when they recieve such news. Compassion for others seems to be lacking. Sigh.

I know trisomy 18 WILL kill a child, she had amino, they diagnosed trisomy 18 and 6 weeks and counting he baby is living! It can happen NO doctor, parent, or anyone else IMO has the right to end a life before the persons heart stops beating (that is the idea of being pro life)

I am not saying I understand what these people go through, but dear I can tell you that above all else I would NEVER have an abortion, my life or anyone elses life at risk, because I believe that I have no right to stop a beating heart that right is Gods and Gods alone!
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  #50  
April 25th, 2009, 01:35 PM
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ITA with you Andrika!
Quote:
I know trisomy 18 WILL kill a child, she had amino, they diagnosed trisomy 18 and 6 weeks and counting he baby is living! It can happen NO doctor, parent, or anyone else IMO has the right to end a life before the persons heart stops beating (that is the idea of being pro life)

I am not saying I understand what these people go through, but dear I can tell you that above all else I would NEVER have an abortion, my life or anyone elses life at risk, because I believe that I have no right to stop a beating heart that right is Gods and Gods alone!
CartersMommy:
I am assuming you are also against the death penalty... and my question to you is this: what about people who don't believe in your God? Should they abide by your religious views even though they do not follow it?
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  #51  
April 25th, 2009, 01:53 PM
CartersMommy's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by melkissa2004 View Post

CartersMommy:
I am assuming you are also against the death penalty... and my question to you is this: what about people who don't believe in your God? Should they abide by your religious views even though they do not follow it?
Yes I am against the death penalty and yes, my pro life stance is based on my religion, and just human rights, I believe that a baby has more right to live than a mother has to choose to kill it, for me the babies right to live wins, you can look at it like that with no religion tied to it at all. I am saying that for me pro life means being just as for *human rights* as being pro choice is!
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  #52  
April 25th, 2009, 03:14 PM
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I'm pro-choice for others not myself. I have had to many miscarriages and want a third child to bad to abort it. If my baby has Trisomy 18 I will carry this child and love it until it passes on, whenever that will be.
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  #53  
April 25th, 2009, 06:18 PM
irishxrose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CartersMommy View Post
Yes I am against the death penalty and yes, my pro life stance is based on my religion, and just human rights, I believe that a baby has more right to live than a mother has to choose to kill it, for me the babies right to live wins, you can look at it like that with no religion tied to it at all. I am saying that for me pro life means being just as for *human rights* as being pro choice is!
A zygote or embryo does NOT overrule MY right to live. And your religion has absolutely no say on what I do with my family, my body and most importantly, my own life. And yes, you can look at it with no religion, but I find it illogical to place a tiny fetus with more importance than anyone already living here on earth. To fight for those human rights, the people that are already HERE, is logical. To fight for a tiny fetus that has a 50/50 chance of making it full-term in low risk pregnancies (and even lower chance of survival as the risk grows) and not give a flying pig about the human beings actually LIVING...is... just wow. I also am curious... are you against government assistance? Because I have to say, that's incredibly hypocritical if you are so "SAVE THE BABIES" but don't give a flying fig about them once they're actually born... but that's because most people who are against abortion and against government assistance and proclaim to want to save the babies are actually pro-fetus, not pro-life. Eh, I've said it before and I'll say it again, at least be consistent and honest with yourself and admit it...

So you would be perfectly fine with dying and leaving your children without a mother for a fetus that WILL NOT survive, as in an ectopic pregnancy?

I find that incredibly sad that someone would feel a fetus is more important than their children's right to a mother, and your own right to life. That is so... I'll be honest, it's incomprehensible to me. I would never put a fetus over my living child or my own life. Period. My life and my living child is more important. You feel differently, but I certainly don't understand it and to be honest I find it a bit cruel that someone would be willing to deprive their living child of a mother and their own life for a fetus that has no guarantee of surviving anyway and only doing it because abortion is "oh so evil". Maybe I just have different priorities. That's my opinion, anyway. (to clarify after reading over and editing, I am talking of medical abortions here in the case that the mother is in danger of losing her life - I'm not talking overall... hope that makes sense)

Last edited by irishxrose; April 25th, 2009 at 06:23 PM.
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  #54  
April 26th, 2009, 02:19 AM
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  #55  
April 26th, 2009, 06:39 AM
CartersMommy's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishxrose View Post
A zygote or embryo does NOT overrule MY right to live. And your religion has absolutely no say on what I do with my family, my body and most importantly, my own life. And yes, you can look at it with no religion, but I find it illogical to place a tiny fetus with more importance than anyone already living here on earth. To fight for those human rights, the people that are already HERE, is logical. To fight for a tiny fetus that has a 50/50 chance of making it full-term in low risk pregnancies (and even lower chance of survival as the risk grows) and not give a flying pig about the human beings actually LIVING...is... just wow. I also am curious... are you against government assistance? Because I have to say, that's incredibly hypocritical if you are so "SAVE THE BABIES" but don't give a flying fig about them once they're actually born... but that's because most people who are against abortion and against government assistance and proclaim to want to save the babies are actually pro-fetus, not pro-life. Eh, I've said it before and I'll say it again, at least be consistent and honest with yourself and admit it...

So you would be perfectly fine with dying and leaving your children without a mother for a fetus that WILL NOT survive, as in an ectopic pregnancy?

I find that incredibly sad that someone would feel a fetus is more important than their children's right to a mother, and your own right to life. That is so... I'll be honest, it's incomprehensible to me. I would never put a fetus over my living child or my own life. Period. My life and my living child is more important. You feel differently, but I certainly don't understand it and to be honest I find it a bit cruel that someone would be willing to deprive their living child of a mother and their own life for a fetus that has no guarantee of surviving anyway and only doing it because abortion is "oh so evil". Maybe I just have different priorities. That's my opinion, anyway. (to clarify after reading over and editing, I am talking of medical abortions here in the case that the mother is in danger of losing her life - I'm not talking overall... hope that makes sense)
I feel you are only speaking of abortions that are a "risk to the mother" that account for what 2-3%? What about the rights to the baby when the mother has a low risk pregnancy and just does not want the child, feels like getting a baby bump would ruin her body, or the million other reasons that 90-95% of abortions happen! You are only speaking of the 2-3% that happen due to mothers health what about all the OTHER babies out there where the mothers life was not in any danger.... what is your reasoning behind the rights of the baby now?

How closed minded of you (I feel that is what you are being) to assume I or anyone else is lumped into a category, yes I believe in assistance for all children (they should no be punished if their parents go through rough times) trust me I am not for adults living on assistance when the are well capable of getting a job, but the children should never suffer! I am not even sure what I said that would cause you to infer that I do not think children should have assistance

You can think of me as you wish, you can think I am crazy and ridiculous, but I could not choose one child (the one that is living inside of me) over the one that is living outside of me, it is just not me not something I could do! IMO the doctors could throw percentages at me all they want they do not know for 100% sure what will happen, and I sure they would not say that they did, so I would take my chance, because I could not live with myself any other way. I do not put down people who feel that must choose to abort to save themselves NO, I do not out down people that have an abortion, I do not feel that it is my right to do that either. Since you are so caught up on "risk to the mother" would you be opposed to our country adopting a abortion policy like Ireland for example where that is the only instance in which abortion is legal, all others (with I feel the very rare exception I have not read all the law fine print) would be illegal. What are your thoughts?
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Last edited by CartersMommy; April 26th, 2009 at 07:00 AM.
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  #56  
April 26th, 2009, 10:03 AM
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I was speaking of risk to the mother not only because of your statements, but others' as well, so no it was not all about you. Yours was simply the post that I replied to.

As for the other abortions, I don't ever believe a fetus has rights over the mother. Ever. If the mother wishes to abort, that is between her and her doctor, not me. I personally would never get an abortion, as I have struggled with infertility and another baby would be a blessing, but I can't ever say that's how it should be for everyone else. Do I think getting an abortion for reasons such as "I don't want stretchmarks!" are selfish? Of course I do. But it's the mother's right to her own reproductive organs and body. I believe it is far too much of a slippery slope to legislate what a woman can and can't do with her body. I may not like it, but if I push for their rights to be taken away, ultimately no one will be left to fight for mine. For me, it's a "what's next" thing; does the government want to implement a one child only policy like China, or tell me how many children I HAVE to have even if I don't want to have that many children? That's how I feel, so I do not believe legislating abortion and restricting it is a good idea. I'm a realist, there would far too many problems in denying abortion to women. It's a necessary evil. I am not "for" abortions. What I am for, is better education and better contraception available for those who need it. That is the best way to reduce the abortion rates, IMO.

And, no I do not agree with Ireland's policy and never have. They have significant problems with their policy and women also flee to other countries to have abortions, so it has not stopped abortion in any case.

I am sorry if you feel I have singled you out; that is my fault for wording my posts incorrectly. My intent was to address several posts concerning health problems and abortions, not just yours so I sincerely apologize if you felt that I was attacking you or if I offended you. That was not my intent.
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  #57  
April 26th, 2009, 12:18 PM
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It is ok, I was not offended by your remarks, I just wanted to make sure you knew where I stand, that I am very honest with myself about what I believe! Thanks for chatting with me about this, even though for both of us it seems to be pretty emotionally driven I really think it is good to have these types of discussions! I really think that neither of us are going to budge on our thoughts and we both feel we are right! I am sure you will go on supporting a womens right to choose, and I will go on choosing life, I really think we are two people whose ideas will probably never change!
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  #58  
April 26th, 2009, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishxrose View Post
A zygote or embryo does NOT overrule MY right to live. And your religion has absolutely no say on what I do with my family, my body and most importantly, my own life. And yes, you can look at it with no religion, but I find it illogical to place a tiny fetus with more importance than anyone already living here on earth. To fight for those human rights, the people that are already HERE, is logical. To fight for a tiny fetus that has a 50/50 chance of making it full-term in low risk pregnancies (and even lower chance of survival as the risk grows) and not give a flying pig about the human beings actually LIVING...is... just wow. I also am curious... are you against government assistance? Because I have to say, that's incredibly hypocritical if you are so "SAVE THE BABIES" but don't give a flying fig about them once they're actually born... but that's because most people who are against abortion and against government assistance and proclaim to want to save the babies are actually pro-fetus, not pro-life. Eh, I've said it before and I'll say it again, at least be consistent and honest with yourself and admit it...

So you would be perfectly fine with dying and leaving your children without a mother for a fetus that WILL NOT survive, as in an ectopic pregnancy?

I find that incredibly sad that someone would feel a fetus is more important than their children's right to a mother, and your own right to life. That is so... I'll be honest, it's incomprehensible to me. I would never put a fetus over my living child or my own life. Period. My life and my living child is more important. You feel differently, but I certainly don't understand it and to be honest I find it a bit cruel that someone would be willing to deprive their living child of a mother and their own life for a fetus that has no guarantee of surviving anyway and only doing it because abortion is "oh so evil". Maybe I just have different priorities. That's my opinion, anyway. (to clarify after reading over and editing, I am talking of medical abortions here in the case that the mother is in danger of losing her life - I'm not talking overall... hope that makes sense)
Totally O/T but needed to clarify...a confirmed pg (meaning you have tested & gotten a BFP & been to a Dr) does NOT have a 50/50 chance of making it. I understand where many get that number, but it is somewhat fictitious in that is guesstimated as to approximately how many mc's happen when women don't even know they are pg yet are included. If a HB has been detect via u/s the rate is somewhere between 4% (those with no signs of mc, no bleeding, etc) to 20% for women over 40. HB can be seen as early as 5-6 wks, but definitely by 7 wks. The general medical accepted rate is 15% rate of loss. So whatever your beliefs about abortion, most women who will loose without knowing it do so VERY early on, most mc's do happen earlier rather than later, etc...so in a low risk pg - the rate of overall loss up to due date is maybe 16% max...(being that the stillbirth rate overall is 1 in 115 in the U.S). If the actual loss rate was 50/50 in women that KNEW they were pg then people would be MUCH more aware of mc & much better informed.
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  #59  
April 26th, 2009, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mammamelli View Post
Actually, I have friends that tried very hard to get pregnant. When they FINALLY did after months of trying, they were devistated to learn mid-way through the pregnancy that the baby had several severe medical conditions that the doctors said would make it impossible to carry the baby to term, let alone live through the birth. The options were to wait until the baby died in utero and have to give birth vaginally to a still born child or to have a d&c and spare mom any more torment. They chose to spare mom any more torment.

I would never ever say that these parents "killed their child". It was an agonizing decision for them, and to top it off, they only told me and one other person that they had to do this because they didn't want people on the pro-life side to give them crap while they were grieving. Just because they chose to spare the mom and the child any further pain does not make them "killers", and it would have been aweful for them to have to listen to that kind of crap on top of loosing a child that they so desperately wanted in the first place.

There are many other stories like this out there. This is why I am pro-choice. You have no idea what it's like to be in someone else's shoes. Being a Christian does not conflict with a pro-choice stance for me. What happens in someone's life is not for me to judge, it is between them and God. I don't see how being a Christian makes it ok for me to judge everyone else's life.
In response to the rest of what you said, it is amazing to me the blind faith that people have in doctors. Not to say we should not have some faith, but doctors are people too. For every story out there like the one you told us about, there is another story about people who went against the doctor's advice and went along with the pregnancy and the not only did the child survive pregnancy, but in many cases the child is still living. No I dont know what its like to have a doctor tell me that my pregnancy is going to fail, but I do know that I would rather take the chance of letting the baby live than to end the child's life based on a negative report from the doctor. At the very least, if I continue said pregnancy and the child does in fact die, at least I would know that everything possible was done to ensure that child has a chance at life. Of course, thats just me.
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April 27th, 2009, 04:21 PM
.Nikki.'s Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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