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View Poll Results: Are you pro-life ro pro-choice?
pro-life 120 51.50%
pro-choice 113 48.50%
Voters: 233. You may not vote on this poll

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  #81  
September 28th, 2009, 11:45 PM
Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JagersMommie View Post

Do/would you wonder what color their eyes would be, how their tiny finger would feel wraped around yous, if they would have like Bananas more than peaches, if they would have been a righty or lefty, how it would feel/sound to hear their cry at 3am, the sound of "ma ma" da da" the little sounds they would have made the squeals, and giggle laughs, Do you wonder how it would feel to walk over to thier crib across the hall and just pick them up and hold them in your arms and feel the warmth of their skin the sweet scent from their hair kiss their chubby checks.....

So if you (general) are Pro-choice...meaning you belive in womens rights to chose.
Wouldnt you (general) rather be responsible for your (general) actions Before a situation like this can occur?
What if the responsible thing is to have an abortion, and what if you are taking the precautions? I understand that sex= something we should think about beforehand and know what we would do and what we should do, but thing is, situations change, people change, what is "right" changes. What is okay for me one day may not work for me tomorrow.

I've had an abortion. I do wonder on a daily basis how that baby would of been. I would have almost a 3 month old right now if I didn't have the abortion. If I got pregnant right now I could go through with the situation, but at that time, it would of been so unfair to my kids I have now. It would not of been the right situation. We were being responsible in making the right choice for us. What we did may be deemed irresponsible to you, but for us, it absolutely was the best decision for our family. That is ultimately why I am pro choice. Most of us who have abortions ARE being responsible and making the right choice, it may not work for you, but it works for us. And thats all that matters, and should matter. I also know adoption is there, but for me, it wouldn't work. But whatever my justification is, my abortion doesn't directly effect you, so the whole "why don't you be responsible" thing shouldn't even matter, because no matter what you probably will deem me irresponsible, as well as others who have abortions. Abortion is one of those things that doesn't effect anyone but the girl and her family, so I really don't see why anyone else has to take offense to it and judge girls when it doesn't effect them.

I know I was being responsible for my family, so to have someone say that girls like me should be responsible is a slap in the face, because truly, there was no better decision for us. I think about my child everyday, I talk about him/her often, but I truly am content with the decision I made with Tony. I do not regret the decision, but I regret I ever had to make it, if that makes sense.
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  #82  
September 29th, 2009, 01:52 PM
justjaQ's Avatar Platinum Super Mommy
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Location: Sterling Heights, MI
Posts: 19,640
so pro-choice.

what really bothers me on the pro-life side, is when someone says that it is only okay when a woman has been raped, or in the case of incest... are those babies less significant than any other? how ridiculous and inconsistant that seems, to me.

Quote:
Is the so called "inconvience" of a pregnacy, so much you cant take responsiblity for you actions. That you would chose abortion as the ONLY option?

Do/would you wonder what color their eyes would be, how their tiny finger would feel wraped around yous, if they would have like Bananas more than peaches, if they would have been a righty or lefty, how it would feel/sound to hear their cry at 3am, the sound of "ma ma" da da" the little sounds they would have made the squeals, and giggle laughs, Do you wonder how it would feel to walk over to thier crib across the hall and just pick them up and hold them in your arms and feel the warmth of their skin the sweet scent from their hair kiss their chubby checks.....
maybe pregnancy isn't an inconvenience, when you suggest adoption. maybe adoption is far more painful to think about. selfish? yes. but, i agree that someone already living, gets to make the choice.

the colour of eyes? how tiny fingers feel? etc. do you really think that women who have aborted DON'T think about this? that they DON'T find it a painful decision? that they don't agonise about it every day for the rest of their lives? maybe some people do it for convenience, and don't have regrets, but i'd have to say that most do have those thoughts-- forever.

and sometimes, women are forced to to have abortions. how painful is that? it's as bad as not having a choice at all.
__________________
msjaQ- 28, pantheist AP detroit mama to:
timothy michael, august 31, 2003, 12:02pm, 8 lb. 4 oz., 21"- 38 wks.
melissa may, april 7, 2006, 1:31pm, 7 lb. 10.5 oz., 19.5"- 36.5 wks
nicholas michael, january 31, 2010, 5:12pm, 5 lb. 11 oz., 18.25"- 37.1 wks
damon michael, january 21, 2012, 1:31am, 6 lb. 14 oz., 20", 38 wks
rainbow baby left me at 6-1/2 weeks on 09.08.12~ never forgotten, sweet child



Last edited by justjaQ; September 29th, 2009 at 02:44 PM.
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  #83  
September 29th, 2009, 07:59 PM
JagersMommie's Avatar Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom2Froggy View Post
What if the responsible thing is to have an abortion, and what if you are taking the precautions? I understand that sex= something we should think about beforehand and know what we would do and what we should do, but thing is, situations change, people change, what is "right" changes. What is okay for me one day may not work for me tomorrow.

I've had an abortion. I do wonder on a daily basis how that baby would of been. I would have almost a 3 month old right now if I didn't have the abortion. If I got pregnant right now I could go through with the situation, but at that time, it would of been so unfair to my kids I have now. It would not of been the right situation. We were being responsible in making the right choice for us. What we did may be deemed irresponsible to you, but for us, it absolutely was the best decision for our family. That is ultimately why I am pro choice. Most of us who have abortions ARE being responsible and making the right choice, it may not work for you, but it works for us. And thats all that matters, and should matter. I also know adoption is there, but for me, it wouldn't work. But whatever my justification is, my abortion doesn't directly effect you, so the whole "why don't you be responsible" thing shouldn't even matter, because no matter what you probably will deem me irresponsible, as well as others who have abortions. Abortion is one of those things that doesn't effect anyone but the girl and her family, so I really don't see why anyone else has to take offense to it and judge girls when it doesn't effect them.

I know I was being responsible for my family, so to have someone say that girls like me should be responsible is a slap in the face, because truly, there was no better decision for us. I think about my child everyday, I talk about him/her often, but I truly am content with the decision I made with Tony. I do not regret the decision, but I regret I ever had to make it, if that makes sense.


I am sorry that you had to go thru that. I am aware of the emtional pain that would come along with a situation like yours. I dont have the authority to judge "YOU" and I dont personally/individually.
What I mean is, I think women should be more educated on the outcome of their actions.
If abortions are going to take place they should not be takin lightly.
I think before an abortion can take place, that you must go in and meet with a docter and counsler.
And have the medical procedure explained (probably happens IDK) and have the counsler go over what to expect emtionally. In depth descriptions, clearly explained. And must have to wait 24/48 hrs
before it is performed. That way the women can have time to think about her decsion and think about the medical/emtional side. ( I mean you dont have surgery without first a consult, unless otherwise an emergency situation but thats not what we are disscussin)
I do realize that abortions arent going to be banned at least not in the near future anyway.
I know things happen, What i am so against is poorly educated girls that have an abortions with little or no knowledge about it. Also the ones that have serveral. That is so wrong, that needs to be addressed. Abortion should be a very well informed decsion. I am strongly Pro Life.
And I do know that your/general choice does not affect me directly. (Although it does affect me emtionally and morally) I am speaking for those Babies that dont have a voice.
They didnt have the choice to be created or aborted. Adoption is a great option
If girls/woman were more educated about abortions and how to protect themselves from the situation. Perhaps abortions would rare cases. But in reality they are very common. I respectivly understand and sympathize with medical reason. However I do not agree with a quick fix. (non exsistant) I know there are woman out there had they been more educated, they would not have been in the situation, or they may be holding their baby, or they would have gone into this content with their decsion.
I hope this made sense.
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  #84  
September 29th, 2009, 08:20 PM
JagersMommie's Avatar Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justjaQ View Post
so pro-choice.


maybe pregnancy isn't an inconvenience, when you suggest adoption. maybe adoption is far more painful to think about. selfish? yes. but, i agree that someone already living, gets to make the choice.

the colour of eyes? how tiny fingers feel? etc. do you really think that women who have aborted DON'T think about this? that they DON'T find it a painful decision? that they don't agonise about it every day for the rest of their lives? maybe some people do it for convenience, and don't have regrets, but i'd have to say that most do have those thoughts-- forever.

Thats part of you decsion. Thats why is should be madatory that before an abortion takes place you must go to a consult with a Dr and counsler 24/48 hrs before it takes place so that you know what is to be expected.... Abortion should NOT be quick fix



and sometimes, women are forced to to have abortions. how painful is that? it's as bad as not having a choice at all.
Being forced that is sad. And the only way you can be forced to have an abortion is if you ALLOW yourself to be forced....
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  #85  
September 29th, 2009, 08:38 PM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Originally Posted by justjaQ View Post

what really bothers me on the pro-life side, is when someone says that it is only okay when a woman has been raped, or in the case of incest... are those babies less significant than any other? how ridiculous and inconsistant that seems, to me.

why do you consider that to be pro-life? If someone is in favor of allowing a woman to CHOOSE to kill her baby if she was raped or was the victim of incest - ummm....that's not pro-life. That person may say she is pro-life but just as you said - it is contradictory and not the pro-life positions.
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  #86  
September 29th, 2009, 08:53 PM
irishxrose
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Originally Posted by JagersMommie View Post
Being forced that is sad. And the only way you can be forced to have an abortion is if you ALLOW yourself to be forced....
That's like saying women allow themselves to be raped - same line of thought. How can you honestly agree with that, as a woman? There are numerous cases out there of men forcing women to have abortions, using emotional and physical abuse to acheive their sadistic aims. How can you ignore that fact and imply that women can't be forced to have an abortion, that we have to allow ourselves to be forced? That doesn't even make sense! A woman can be coerced and forced to have an abortion by abusive boyfriends and husbands and to deny that and imply otherwise just makes me... . That just smacks to me of the argument that "women who wear short skirts are to be blamed for their rape and allow themselves to be raped because they're stupid for wearing a short skirt and letting the guy rape them". Uh, what? How does that even make sense? That's pretty much how your argument is coming across to me. Force means without your consent. Allow means giving consent. So tell me how women can only be forced if they allow themselves to be forced? Do you even understand the dynamic of the human psyche and abuse? Just curious.

My head is spinning trying to understand this viewpoint.
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  #87  
September 29th, 2009, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JagersMommie View Post
What I mean is, I think women should be more educated on the outcome of their actions.
If abortions are going to take place they should not be takin lightly.
I think before an abortion can take place, that you must go in and meet with a docter and counsler.
And have the medical procedure explained (probably happens IDK) and have the counsler go over what to expect emtionally. In depth descriptions, clearly explained. And must have to wait 24/48 hrs
before it is performed. That way the women can have time to think about her decsion and think about the medical/emtional side.
I absolutely agree. Where I went you could not go in that day and get an abortion, you had to make an appointment. They gave us literature about what was going to happen, a journal with writing prompts to help us think things out, they counseled us. We went back in a few days later and found out I may have a tubal pregnancy, or so early on that they really could not see anything in the uterus. I had to wait for another few days to go back before they gave me the pills. I honestly would say I had lots of time to think, I was counseled well, the counselor was very, very nice to us and explained what would happen. The workbook was great as a tool for my boyfriend and I to talk (although he never opened up about it much.) I look at my experience compared to a friends and see we were worlds apart... the doctors didn't give her any resources, they didn't counsel her, they were very cold about it and didn't educate her on what would happen, and unfortunately that happens way more often than it should.

But, girls can absolutely be coerced to have an abortion. You might be lucky enough to have never experienced emotional or physical abuse, but if a girl is stuck in that cycle she can be coerced or forced to do things against her will. It's not black and white where if you want it you have an abortion and if you dont then you dont... it's not that easy. If it was, then it would be so easy to just tell a guy no and not be forced to have sex. But the world isnt that way and its kind of ignorant to assume it is that way.
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  #88  
September 29th, 2009, 11:05 PM
justjaQ's Avatar Platinum Super Mommy
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Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
why do you consider that to be pro-life? If someone is in favor of allowing a woman to CHOOSE to kill her baby if she was raped or was the victim of incest - ummm....that's not pro-life. That person may say she is pro-life but just as you said - it is contradictory and not the pro-life positions.
you just made my point-- it ISN'T pro-life to say that. i don't understand when someone claims they are pro-life, EXCEPT for rape and incest. where's the sense in that? isn't a zygote/embryo/fetus/baby is just as valuable if it's the product of marriage, as if it were from, say, a rape?
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msjaQ- 28, pantheist AP detroit mama to:
timothy michael, august 31, 2003, 12:02pm, 8 lb. 4 oz., 21"- 38 wks.
melissa may, april 7, 2006, 1:31pm, 7 lb. 10.5 oz., 19.5"- 36.5 wks
nicholas michael, january 31, 2010, 5:12pm, 5 lb. 11 oz., 18.25"- 37.1 wks
damon michael, january 21, 2012, 1:31am, 6 lb. 14 oz., 20", 38 wks
rainbow baby left me at 6-1/2 weeks on 09.08.12~ never forgotten, sweet child


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  #89  
September 29th, 2009, 11:21 PM
justjaQ's Avatar Platinum Super Mommy
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Quote:
Thats part of you decsion. Thats why is should be madatory that before an abortion takes place you must go to a consult with a Dr and counsler 24/48 hrs before it takes place so that you know what is to be expected.... Abortion should NOT be quick fix
time and a counseler are mandatory where i live. i would think most women would know what's to be expected, and are dreading it (sometimes it almost seems like the pro-life side feels women are glad to, or okay with killing their babies.-- not picking you out on that, just a side thought.).

Quote:
and sometimes, women are forced to to have abortions. how painful is that? it's as bad as not having a choice at all.
Being forced that is sad. And the only way you can be forced to have an abortion is if you ALLOW yourself to be forced....
and, wow.
__________________
msjaQ- 28, pantheist AP detroit mama to:
timothy michael, august 31, 2003, 12:02pm, 8 lb. 4 oz., 21"- 38 wks.
melissa may, april 7, 2006, 1:31pm, 7 lb. 10.5 oz., 19.5"- 36.5 wks
nicholas michael, january 31, 2010, 5:12pm, 5 lb. 11 oz., 18.25"- 37.1 wks
damon michael, january 21, 2012, 1:31am, 6 lb. 14 oz., 20", 38 wks
rainbow baby left me at 6-1/2 weeks on 09.08.12~ never forgotten, sweet child


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  #90  
September 30th, 2009, 03:32 PM
Mommyto2Girls's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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I am pro-life
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  #91  
September 30th, 2009, 08:44 PM
JagersMommie's Avatar Member
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That's like saying women allow themselves to be raped - same line of thought. How can you honestly agree with that, as a woman? There are numerous cases out there of men forcing women to have abortions, using emotional and physical abuse to acheive their sadistic aims. How can you ignore that fact and imply that women can't be forced to have an abortion, that we have to allow ourselves to be forced? That doesn't even make sense! A woman can be coerced and forced to have an abortion by abusive boyfriends and husbands and to deny that and imply otherwise just makes me... __________________


If a man/boyfriend wants you(general) to get an abortion. And is emotioanl /verbal/physically abusvie.
You should get yourself out of that situation. Isnt YOUR whole Pro-Choice argument. About womens rights. That the women should have the right to chose abortion. Right?? Or have the baby? Right??? Correct me if i'm wrong.
So if the man/boyfriend is FORCING women to have abortions. ISNT that the SAME thing as taking your rights away. May not be the government but a man/boyfriend. HMM....
Now that has MY head spinning!
So if someone FORCES you(general) to have an abortion against your will. (unless they have you at gun point) Then YES you(general) allow them to. You (general) should not be with this person anyway if they treat you(general) this way.


(FTR I never said anything about rape victims)
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  #92  
September 30th, 2009, 09:32 PM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JagersMommie View Post
That's like saying women allow themselves to be raped - same line of thought. How can you honestly agree with that, as a woman? There are numerous cases out there of men forcing women to have abortions, using emotional and physical abuse to acheive their sadistic aims. How can you ignore that fact and imply that women can't be forced to have an abortion, that we have to allow ourselves to be forced? That doesn't even make sense! A woman can be coerced and forced to have an abortion by abusive boyfriends and husbands and to deny that and imply otherwise just makes me... __________________


If a man/boyfriend wants you(general) to get an abortion. And is emotioanl /verbal/physically abusvie.
You should get yourself out of that situation. Isnt YOUR whole Pro-Choice argument. About womens rights. That the women should have the right to chose abortion. Right?? Or have the baby? Right??? Correct me if i'm wrong.
So if the man/boyfriend is FORCING women to have abortions. ISNT that the SAME thing as taking your rights away. May not be the government but a man/boyfriend. HMM....
Now that has MY head spinning!
So if someone FORCES you(general) to have an abortion against your will. (unless they have you at gun point) Then YES you(general) allow them to. You (general) should not be with this person anyway if they treat you(general) this way.


(FTR I never said anything about rape victims)
I agree. It seems like an odd defense to say that a women was "forced" to have an abortion by an abusive partner and therefore the abortion is justified or okay. What if that same women was "forced" to kill her 2 week old baby? what is the difference?
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  #93  
October 1st, 2009, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
I agree. It seems like an odd defense to say that a women was "forced" to have an abortion by an abusive partner and therefore the abortion is justified or okay. What if that same women was "forced" to kill her 2 week old baby? what is the difference?
If the girl deems it okay or justified, it is. It's not for anyone else to deem it as not okay or not justified.
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  #94  
October 1st, 2009, 07:26 AM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Originally Posted by Mom2Froggy View Post
If the girl deems it okay or justified, it is. It's not for anyone else to deem it as not okay or not justified.

Are you talking about an abortion or killing a 2 week old baby? I'm confused.
I was responding to Irishxrose who seemed to be making the argument that a person could be "forced" to have an abortion and she then got upset when someone responded that you have to allow yourself to be forced and that got her all worked up. So, I'm assuming that if I was in abusive relationship, both physically and mentally etc etc then I would be justified in killing my baby, in utero or already born, if I was forced - right? Because, by that logic given, if I was held responsible for my babies death in any way or if someone had the nerve to say I allowed myself to be "forced" - that would be liking saying a woman who was raped asked for it. Hey, its not my logic -
"My head is spinning trying to understand this viewpoint." - right back at ya
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  #95  
October 1st, 2009, 10:44 AM
(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.)
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Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
Are you talking about an abortion or killing a 2 week old baby? I'm confused.
I was responding to Irishxrose who seemed to be making the argument that a person could be "forced" to have an abortion and she then got upset when someone responded that you have to allow yourself to be forced and that got her all worked up. So, I'm assuming that if I was in abusive relationship, both physically and mentally etc etc then I would be justified in killing my baby, in utero or already born, if I was forced - right? Because, by that logic given, if I was held responsible for my babies death in any way or if someone had the nerve to say I allowed myself to be "forced" - that would be liking saying a woman who was raped asked for it. Hey, its not my logic - it was irishxrose who said it and apparently she has a superior grasp on the "dynamic of the human psyche and abuse" - brilliant! so many people in jail right now would love it if our justice system had her understand of the "dynamic of the human psyche and abuse"!!!
"My head is spinning trying to understand this viewpoint." - right back at ya
Many people in abusive relationships are found not guilty or are given a lessen sentence because of the dynamic of abuse so I don't understand how your point is conveying the opposite.

Not all people who have abortions are forced but those that are probably wouldn't want to have a child in that environment. If a pregnant woman can't get out of that relationship, can you imagine being pregnant and getting beaten?

Abuse is a problem in pregnancy.
Abuse of Pregnant Women
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  #96  
October 1st, 2009, 11:19 AM
irishxrose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
Are you talking about an abortion or killing a 2 week old baby? I'm confused.
I was responding to Irishxrose who seemed to be making the argument that a person could be "forced" to have an abortion and she then got upset when someone responded that you have to allow yourself to be forced and that got her all worked up. So, I'm assuming that if I was in abusive relationship, both physically and mentally etc etc then I would be justified in killing my baby, in utero or already born, if I was forced - right? Because, by that logic given, if I was held responsible for my babies death in any way or if someone had the nerve to say I allowed myself to be "forced" - that would be liking saying a woman who was raped asked for it. Hey, its not my logic - it was irishxrose who said it and apparently she has a superior grasp on the "dynamic of the human psyche and abuse" - brilliant! so many people in jail right now would love it if our justice system had her understand of the "dynamic of the human psyche and abuse"!!!
"My head is spinning trying to understand this viewpoint." - right back at ya
To the bolded, I was not the one to make that argument. Jaq first said it and I only responded to the asinine comment about allowing ourselves to be forced (let me make this clear - you don't "allow" yourself to be forced; you ARE FORCED, which means without consent: to say that you allow yourself to be forced is a complete contradiction to the actual meaning of force). And please point out where I said anything about justification? In fact, that word is nowhere within my original post. Nice try though. If you don't understand my point, well I apologize for being unclear. I'm not going to explain it over and over however.

And I will not respond to the rest of your post. Rude, much?
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  #97  
October 1st, 2009, 12:10 PM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishxrose View Post
To the bolded, I was not the one to make that argument. Jaq first said it and I only responded to the asinine comment about allowing ourselves to be forced (let me make this clear - you don't "allow" yourself to be forced; you ARE FORCED, which means without consent: to say that you allow yourself to be forced is a complete contradiction to the actual meaning of force). And please point out where I said anything about justification? In fact, that word is nowhere within my original post. Nice try though. If you don't understand my point, well I apologize for being unclear. I'm not going to explain it over and over however.

And I will not respond to the rest of your post. Rude, much?
You are right - it was rude and I apologize for that. I felt like your response to JagersMommie was rude but that is no reason for me to respond in kind.
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  #98  
October 1st, 2009, 12:15 PM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.) View Post
Many people in abusive relationships are found not guilty or are given a lessen sentence because of the dynamic of abuse so I don't understand how your point is conveying the opposite.

Not all people who have abortions are forced but those that are probably wouldn't want to have a child in that environment. If a pregnant woman can't get out of that relationship, can you imagine being pregnant and getting beaten?

Abuse is a problem in pregnancy.
Abuse of Pregnant Women
I've heard of people being found not guilty in some cases where they killed their abuser. I've also heard of people being found not guilty by reason of insantity. But I really am curious in hearing of a case where a person was found not guilty of killing a third party, meaning NOT the abuser, because of the "dynamic of abuse." I am asking for an example in genuine curiousity - I went through law school and 5 years as an attorney and have never heard of such a case and would be very interested in reading more or learning more about it.
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  #99  
October 1st, 2009, 12:45 PM
(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.)
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Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
I've heard of people being found not guilty in some cases where they killed their abuser. I've also heard of people being found not guilty by reason of insantity. But I really am curious in hearing of a case where a person was found not guilty of killing a third party, meaning NOT the abuser, because of the "dynamic of abuse." I am asking for an example in genuine curiousity - I went through law school and 5 years as an attorney and have never heard of such a case and would be very interested in reading more or learning more about it.
I don't know if you have ever heard of Karla Homolka. She helped kill her sister and raped women with her husband Paul Bernado. It was really big case here in Canada. The Elizabeth Fry organization helped her with her defense because of the abuse she received. (There are pictures of the beatings she had.) I know of many child abuse cases like this too.

Last edited by (.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.); October 1st, 2009 at 12:47 PM.
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  #100  
October 1st, 2009, 01:56 PM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.) View Post
I don't know if you have ever heard of Karla Homolka. She helped kill her sister and raped women with her husband Paul Bernado. It was really big case here in Canada. The Elizabeth Fry organization helped her with her defense because of the abuse she received. (There are pictures of the beatings she had.) I know of many child abuse cases like this too.

I have heard of that case - i thought she pld guilty to manslaughter and served time in jail for her role. Are you sure she was found not guilty?

The whole reason i jumped into this debate was because i was under the impression, although i may have been wrong, that one or more people were arguing that it is possible to be forced to have an abortion through abuse and therefore not be responsible for the decision because being forced is the same as not having a choice. I think that is rediculous and I doubt people would argue the same thing if a baby or a toddler was killed. I understand that people often face lesser charges (I really think that women you mentioned plead guilty to lesser charges) but that is not the same thing as saying that someone had no choice but to commit the act. A person wouldn't serve jail time if they literally had NO CHOICE - even if someone points a gun at your head and says "kill your baby or I will kill you" most mothers would choose to save their baby without hesitation showing that there is most definitely a choice. And obviously, most pro-choice people don't believe the unborn have the same value as the born but for someone to strictly make the argument that some people are forced to have abortions and therefore have no choice is only a valid argument if that same person could be forced to kill her toddler and therefore have no choice.
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