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Abortion Debate

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View Poll Results: Are you pro-life ro pro-choice?
pro-life 120 51.50%
pro-choice 113 48.50%
Voters: 233. You may not vote on this poll

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  #101  
October 1st, 2009, 03:08 PM
(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
I have heard of that case - i thought she pld guilty to manslaughter and served time in jail for her role. Are you sure she was found not guilty?

The whole reason i jumped into this debate was because i was under the impression, although i may have been wrong, that one or more people were arguing that it is possible to be forced to have an abortion through abuse and therefore not be responsible for the decision because being forced is the same as not having a choice. I think that is rediculous and I doubt people would argue the same thing if a baby or a toddler was killed. I understand that people often face lesser charges (I really think that women you mentioned plead guilty to lesser charges) but that is not the same thing as saying that someone had no choice but to commit the act. A person wouldn't serve jail time if they literally had NO CHOICE - even if someone points a gun at your head and says "kill your baby or I will kill you" most mothers would choose to save their baby without hesitation showing that there is most definitely a choice. And obviously, most pro-choice people don't believe the unborn have the same value as the born but for someone to strictly make the argument that some people are forced to have abortions and therefore have no choice is only a valid argument if that same person could be forced to kill her toddler and therefore have no choice.
I actually didn't argue that Karla Holmoka was found not guilty... there is so much to that case to go over but all you requested was for an example where abuse was a factor in a lesser sentence since as a lawyer you had never heard of such a case. There are many others I read about at least on a weekly basis.. I was under the impression you were curious but I see your intent is actually to debate about the responsiblity of an abortion. ((I'll have to come back to this ~ two toddlers running around))
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  #102  
October 1st, 2009, 04:06 PM
(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
I have heard of that case - i thought she pld guilty to manslaughter and served time in jail for her role. Are you sure she was found not guilty?

The whole reason i jumped into this debate was because i was under the impression, although i may have been wrong, that one or more people were arguing that it is possible to be forced to have an abortion through abuse and therefore not be responsible for the decision because being forced is the same as not having a choice. I think that is rediculous and I doubt people would argue the same thing if a baby or a toddler was killed. I understand that people often face lesser charges (I really think that women you mentioned plead guilty to lesser charges) but that is not the same thing as saying that someone had no choice but to commit the act. A person wouldn't serve jail time if they literally had NO CHOICE - even if someone points a gun at your head and says "kill your baby or I will kill you" most mothers would choose to save their baby without hesitation showing that there is most definitely a choice. And obviously, most pro-choice people don't believe the unborn have the same value as the born but for someone to strictly make the argument that some people are forced to have abortions and therefore have no choice is only a valid argument if that same person could be forced to kill her toddler and therefore have no choice.
I understand that you are pro-life. I don't know about you personally but I know for many pro-life, there just simply aren't any reasons to have an abortion. So whether or not it's a legitimate reason, to many pro-lifers there just isn't any legitimate reason, no matter how extreme the circumstances. So to you being forced to have an abortion because of an abusive relationship may not be a good enough reason in your belief system. I can assure you that even if you don't agree with it, there are women out there who can live with their choice of an abortion because to them it was a good enough reason. I understand to you, using a dead toddler as an example is equal as an unborn baby so using it an argument makes sense to you. As you even acknowledged that unborn babies aren't seen as the same, I think you're not going to have many pro-choicers to debate with about that point. (It's just arguing a moot point.) I respect your a lawyer so you see things within the structure of the law. At the end of the day, abortion isn't illegal so comparing it to something illegal is again dissecting a moot point.
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  #103  
October 1st, 2009, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
Are you talking about an abortion or killing a 2 week old baby? I'm confused.
I was responding to Irishxrose who seemed to be making the argument that a person could be "forced" to have an abortion and she then got upset when someone responded that you have to allow yourself to be forced and that got her all worked up. So, I'm assuming that if I was in abusive relationship, both physically and mentally etc etc then I would be justified in killing my baby, in utero or already born, if I was forced - right? Because, by that logic given, if I was held responsible for my babies death in any way or if someone had the nerve to say I allowed myself to be "forced" - that would be liking saying a woman who was raped asked for it. Hey, its not my logic -
"My head is spinning trying to understand this viewpoint." - right back at ya
Of course I mean it is justified for an abortion, certainly not an infant or child.

And yes, girls are forced to have abortions, just as they are forced to be raped, just as they are forced to live at the wills of their sig. other. But if an abortion is justified to the mother, that is all that matters. Of course it would never be justifiable to kill an infant, but that is 2 totally different subjects. An abortion and killing an infant doesn't even equate to being the same situation or even remotely the same. But on the topic of justification.... the only person whos opinion matters in whether or not an abortion was right was the girl herself. Thats it. And if she believes in a higher power, then possibly her power. But that's it. That's what I meant by justification, because in the end, it really should only matter to her and be okay with her.
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  #104  
October 1st, 2009, 06:56 PM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.) View Post
I actually didn't argue that Karla Holmoka was found not guilty... there is so much to that case to go over but all you requested was for an example where abuse was a factor in a lesser sentence since as a lawyer you had never heard of such a case. There are many others I read about at least on a weekly basis.. I was under the impression you were curious but I see your intent is actually to debate about the responsiblity of an abortion. ((I'll have to come back to this ~ two toddlers running around))
no, I honestly was curious because my whole point was that being "forced" to do something may be a mitigating factor but won't let someone off the hook. Obviously though that isn't an accurate argument if there has in fact been cases where someone has been let off. If you reread your post and then my post - you claimed that there were cases where a people have been found not guilty and I responded specifically requesting an example of that.
And as far as your later post goes - I agree, debating abortion is generally pointless because of the basic fact you outlined - people place different values on the life of the unborn. That is why I specifically focused on on the issue of justification because of lack of choice due to force. I thought that concept could be debated without bringing the issue of value at all because I thought lack of choice would be an issue that was independent of the value of what is being chosen. it obviously isn't working
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  #105  
October 2nd, 2009, 06:57 AM
(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
no, I honestly was curious because my whole point was that being "forced" to do something may be a mitigating factor but won't let someone off the hook. Obviously though that isn't an accurate argument if there has in fact been cases where someone has been let off. If you reread your post and then my post - you claimed that there were cases where a people have been found not guilty and I responded specifically requesting an example of that.
And as far as your later post goes - I agree, debating abortion is generally pointless because of the basic fact you outlined - people place different values on the life of the unborn. That is why I specifically focused on on the issue of justification because of lack of choice due to force. I thought that concept could be debated without bringing the issue of value at all because I thought lack of choice would be an issue that was independent of the value of what is being chosen. it obviously isn't working
I come here to help the other side try to understand why some women would have abortions. I feel at this point you want to argue legalities just to argue. We obviously completely misunderstand each other as to why I even brought up that legal case. (I do feel it's a great example of getting off the hook, but at this point we are too far apart to see how that's even possible. I'm not willing to go back and forth to help you understand. You either want to or you don't.) You feel there is no justification.. I can agree with you that this just isn't working.
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  #106  
October 2nd, 2009, 08:11 AM
Tofu Bacon
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I need a pro-life, but not anti-abortion choice.
^^Ditto. As a society, we are still very unsupportive of women with uplanned pregnancies and still atttach a stigma to those who do keep their babies but need public assistance to do so. The folks out there picketing abortion cliics would do a heck of a lot more to help the unborn by volunteering at and/or financially supporting crisis pregnancy centers. Until this changes, I cannot stand behind criminalizing a desperate choice made in desperate circumstances.
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  #107  
October 2nd, 2009, 06:02 PM
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  #108  
October 3rd, 2009, 12:58 AM
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sad. sad choice for any women to have to make. jsut sad.
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  #109  
October 3rd, 2009, 07:25 AM
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I am in between. I voted pro-life because under normal circumstances that is what I am, but if the person was raped or a victim of incest, then I would understand an abortion.
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  #110  
October 19th, 2009, 09:36 PM
AmandaR
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Pro life.
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  #111  
January 2nd, 2010, 05:14 AM
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  #112  
January 3rd, 2010, 04:14 PM
Kalia20's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Pro Choice. But that does not include women that use abortion as birth control. I used to know a woman like that. I lost all respect for her as she refuses to use any type of birth control.
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  #113  
January 18th, 2010, 05:33 AM
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I am pro life.
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  #114  
January 19th, 2010, 03:29 AM
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  #115  
March 17th, 2011, 11:38 PM
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  #116  
March 25th, 2011, 11:25 AM
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Pro-Life
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  #117  
April 17th, 2011, 09:57 AM
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Pro-life
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  #118  
February 8th, 2012, 10:19 PM
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pro life
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  #119  
August 3rd, 2012, 10:02 PM
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  #120  
August 23rd, 2012, 03:03 PM
.:Kati:.'s Avatar kyler's mommy
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Pro choice! While i've never had an abortion i'm thankful and find comfort knowing the option is there for me if i never need to get one.
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Last edited by .:Kati:.; August 23rd, 2012 at 03:07 PM.
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