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Abortion Debate

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  #1  
January 28th, 2009, 03:34 PM
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I know on the serface this doesn't seem like an abortion issue. But, I do think it fits in to weather we should have abortions because we are poor. Personlly since I believe that children are the answer to our financial issues as a country... its not fair to deny children life because of finances.

Um, well, what are other's thoughts on this subject? Because I honestly think that money is a fluctuating thing and that even with no cash to speak of you can always care for your children's basic needs one way or another. When I had my first daughter I had a good job in the Air Force and had good insurance and all that. But, within a year of her birth I lost that. What should should I have done? Forseen the possible future and aborted her?
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  #2  
January 28th, 2009, 04:03 PM
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I think that if you know up front you can not afford another child (or a child to begin with if it's your first) then you should not TTC. If it happens accidentally, that's different. I also think that if you are financially stable and TTC and are successful, but then you lose your financial stability then that is also different. No one can predict the future.
Quote:
Personlly since I believe that children are the answer to our financial issues as a country... its not fair to deny children life because of finances.[/b]
What do you mean by the bolded? If someone gets an abortion because they know they can not afford that child- I think it's smart. Good for them realizing that up front rather than having the baby and going through hell to make ends meet if they even can. Also, it's a slippery slope to say which reasons for abortion are fair and not fair... So I won't go there.
Quote:
Um, well, what are other's thoughts on this subject? Because I honestly think that money is a fluctuating thing and that even with no cash to speak of you can always care for your children's basic needs one way or another. When I had my first daughter I had a good job in the Air Force and had good insurance and all that. But, within a year of her birth I lost that. What should should I have done? Forseen the possible future and aborted her?[/b]
I agree to an extent. But purposely TTC with no way to finance your pregnancy or when your child is born is irresponsible IMO. One way or another doesn't happen to everyone and I know I wouldn't sit around just hoping money would somehow find it's way to me so I could buy diapers. If you're speaking from a religious perspective like "God will always provide" then that's different. But not everyone is religious and not everyone believes that. So is it not fair for them to decide to abort knowing they can not afford a child just because they don't have "faith" that something will always fall through so they can care for their child?
In your case, I will stand by my previous statement that if you are financially stable while TTC and then after you give birth a financial meltdown occurs- that is completely different. No one can see the future.
By that same logic, if I am poor but I think I have a pretty good chance of winning the lottery- I should TTC? I would rather wait until I am currently financially stable and have a good probability that we will be for the next few years before TTC.
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  #3  
January 28th, 2009, 06:49 PM
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Our future social security system is depentant on their being enough of the next generation to full the generation of money for our generation. Much of the reason that our finances have gone downhill is when children discontinued being seen as a blessing or a 'happy place' lol. I don't really believe god always provides, because well I say he either doesn't exist or he does and he is an ahole. Pardon my bluntness. So, my feeling on the availablity of funds is more of the fact that if we truly believe in the future we will find a way to provide for our children. Even if we are using cloth diapers and growing tomotoes to feed our kids. Lol. Maybe that's extreme. With my 2 daughter I was pretty stable, but I didn't know how long it would last. My youngest was a happy oops. Meaning. I didn't plan him, but I was so pleased anyway. Whatever comes I know that I will do whatever it takes to take care of my kids.
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  #4  
January 28th, 2009, 06:59 PM
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Our future social security system is depentant on their being enough of the next generation to full the generation of money for our generation. Much of the reason that our finances have gone downhill is when children discontinued being seen as a blessing or a 'happy place' lol. I don't really believe god always provides, because well I say he either doesn't exist or he does and he is an ahole. Pardon my bluntness. So, my feeling on the availablity of funds is more of the fact that if we truly believe in the future we will find a way to provide for our children. Even if we are using cloth diapers and growing tomotoes to feed our kids. Lol. Maybe that's extreme. With my 2 daughter I was pretty stable, but I didn't know how long it would last. My youngest was a happy oops. Meaning. I didn't plan him, but I was so pleased anyway. Whatever comes I know that I will do whatever it takes to take care of my kids.[/b]
I'm not understanding exactly what you mean about the future. We do not have a shortage of children. Abortion is not or does not give any indication of decreasing the population to the point of having no financial future. So you think the current economic situation was caused in part because children are no longer seen as blessings? I'm not sure how you are coming up with that. Do you have studies or anything proving that theory? I am curious. I would go as far as to use your logic in the opposite way. Maybe some children are seen as a curse or unhappy situation after they are already born because the mother was afraid to get an abortion because of how others would make her feel? I know it's a stretch, but it goes both ways IMO.
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  #5  
January 28th, 2009, 10:42 PM
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[/quote]

I can see where you are coming from with curses and blessings, but I would hope that a woman's attitude towards children would be set before she makes any like changing choices. I know several woman who are pro life because it was 'pushed on them' and feel that their life was somehow ruined because of it. It's a crying shame because that can totally shoot down a child's self esteem (actually we just had to discussed in my local mom's group) I would hope my sis who is very pro abortion wouldn't go life just because she felt she had to. But, then I would hope that my beliefs and desire to have children and raise them with a rather limited budget wouldn't be disrespected either. Lol, I actually also belong to another board that sits around and discusses saving money in rather interesting ways! Hehe.

As far as research goes. I'm going to put my head on the chopping block here and say something no debater worth their salt would ever say: To me, research is ALL one sided. I'd love to find out some info on 'the other side' because the resources I've contacted are rather conservitive. Well, now isn't that a laugh I'm wiccan and conservative! Lol! Anyhoo. Yes, my resources probably were rather ahem... blocking out the whole picture. But, all sudies are pretty much done with one person's perspective in mind anyways. To me stonewall jackson is a great southern hero... to you he may be an enemy of all that is right and noble in the world (Wild example, I know) My personal (emphasis on personal) beliefs lead me to say that we have enherited the earth from our parents... AND we are borrowing it from our children. Our responsibility to figure out how we can best serve the future. I don't think 'jobs' persay are the answer to our sucky economy. Because every job has to have a person who FITS that job. You can open a million positions for toilet scrubbers out there, but unless you find a million people with toilet scrubbing as their life calling... fat lot of good it does us, right? I mean sure a lot of people may temporaroly fill the role to get money, but they aren't going to stay there as long as their heart isn't in it. Instead wouldn't we be better off raising children to look around and within themselves to create their niche in society and create a job for themselves? How about if we came up with 50 people that said "Wow, people out there need their toilets scrubbed! And they would pay me to do it! I love the way a freshly cleaned toilet looks... wonder if maybe I could make a living at this?" Okay... silly example. But, I think it kinda illistrates the point pretty well. Maybe I'm too passionate about the forest here to talk about the trees. But... I like your points too. They are really good from the cut and dry perspective. And maybe we need cut and dry too. Or maybe we need to put the passion and the cut and dry together?

But, I don't like it when people see people like me hanging out their laundry to dry because electric for the dryer is a dumb extra expense and say comments about how I should have thought of that before I had my kids. I mean... I might be cutting corners or living life old fashioned in one area... but my daughter has a sweet hot pink MP3 player which my best friend can't afford because she's running load after load through her handy dandy dryer! Lol.
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  #6  
February 2nd, 2009, 02:39 PM
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I think that as much as we'd all like to live in some utopian society where money is no object, but the fact is that it does take money to raise a child. I think it's completely irresponsible, and unfair, to continue to pop out kids one cannot afford. If you want to have a child, but can't afford one, in my opinion, then it's time to make changes in your life to put you in a better circumstance to have children later. Go to school (you likely qualify for grants, if you're that bad off financially), better your circumstance, and ready yourself for this endeavor.


ETA: No one can predict the future, ANYONE can be subject to job loss, or a change in financial stability. But one should do everything possible to avoid the situation.
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  #7  
February 6th, 2009, 08:04 PM
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DollBabyKG, I'm a little confused, are you saying it's a fantasy to want to raise children that don't follow the paycheck, that learn to do for themselves instead of having others always do for them?

I really don't think it's smart to have children if you can't think beyond how much pampers are going to cost you. But, if you can raise happy, healthy children without spending as much as the jones's then why should you let something like the cost keep you from having them?
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  #8  
February 9th, 2009, 10:52 PM
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DollBabyKG, I'm a little confused, are you saying it's a fantasy to want to raise children that don't follow the paycheck, that learn to do for themselves instead of having others always do for them?

I really don't think it's smart to have children if you can't think beyond how much pampers are going to cost you. But, if you can raise happy, healthy children without spending as much as the jones's then why should you let something like the cost keep you from having them?[/b]
I'm not sure I understand your first statement, but I think we actually agree more than disagree. I don't expect anyone to own a mansion, drive a Cadillac, or have a trust fund to have a child. But, people should be able to put food on the table, a roof over the baby's head, and diapers on their little bottoms, WITHOUT using government assistance, before they make the decision to have them. If one wants a baby desperately, but couldn't possibly afford it, in my opinion, that's the time to find a way to be able to raise the baby, financially, BEFORE getting pregnant. Get an associate's degree, go to technical school, do something that will allow you to provide for your family before you create the family. I realize this is in an ideal situation, and that there are unplanned pregnancies, or families who already have children, and then fall on hard times, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about people (people that I've known personally in my life, even have in my family for goodness sakes) who think that just because they "want" a child, or feel like God wants to "send them a child," it's time to throw out the birth control, and get crackin'. Never mind that you cannot afford to feed yourself without assistance, or have health insurance, never mind that you never know if you'll be evicted because you can't make rent. I just don't think that's fair to the child.
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  #9  
February 10th, 2009, 08:13 AM
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I think its wrong to TTC when you know you arent going to be able to afford the outcome,its not fair on the child and I think its irresponsable.
But its one thing to be TTC and another to get pregnant accidently.Either way,I cant see where an abortion is the best way to go (but thats just me.To each their own).
I myself am in a VERY difficult finantial situation right now,but I still wouldent get an abortion if I accidently got pregnant.I couldent live with myself.Id have the baby and then do what it takes to provide for it.
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  #10  
February 10th, 2009, 03:54 PM
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I think that if you know up front you can not afford another child (or a child to begin with if it's your first) then you should not TTC[/b]
Who dictates who is financially responsible or not? The individuals in question having the child and to each individual, financial security or lack there of, is an individual choice.

What I mean by this is that what is acceptable risk to one couple may not be to another for financial security. For me, unless you have no bills (with the exception of regular monthly expenses, phone, cable etc) including no car payment, have 6-8 months of emergency fund in the bank (literally 6-8 months of income in the bank in 'case' something happens to your job), and really the only bill you have is your mortgage; then I do not believe you are 'financially' sound in which to start a family.

Now, because 'I' feel this way about financial security does not mean I am going to impose my views or expectations on someone else and expect that someone abort the fetus because it is not financially feasible, is really barbaric.
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  #11  
February 10th, 2009, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
I think that if you know up front you can not afford another child (or a child to begin with if it's your first) then you should not TTC[/b]
Who dictates who is financially responsible or not? The individuals in question having the child and to each individual, financial security or lack there of, is an individual choice.

What I mean by this is that what is acceptable risk to one couple may not be to another for financial security. For me, unless you have no bills (with the exception of regular monthly expenses, phone, cable etc) including no car payment, have 6-8 months of emergency fund in the bank (literally 6-8 months of income in the bank in 'case' something happens to your job), and really the only bill you have is your mortgage; then I do not believe you are 'financially' sound in which to start a family.

Now, because 'I' feel this way about financial security does not mean I am going to impose my views or expectations on someone else and expect that someone abort the fetus because it is not financially feasible, is really barbaric.
[/b][/quote]
If you are unable to provide food, shelter, clothing, and basic necessities for your child than you are not financially responsible to care for him/her. Once again, if your finances come crumbling down AFTER you've had a child or children and you can't provide those things you should request assistance. That is completely different than purposely TTC without having the finances to provide necessities. I'm not saying there should be a set amount, like you must make 30K a year- I am saying whatever your situation- you should be able to provide basic necessities if you are purposely TTC.
I also wanted to clarify I don't think it should be illegal for people to TTC if they aren't financially ready to, I just think it's irresponsible. JMO.
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  #12  
February 10th, 2009, 05:43 PM
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As far as research goes. I'm going to put my head on the chopping block here and say something no debater worth their salt would ever say: To me, research is ALL one sided.[/b]
This is not snarky, this is an FYI: To find reputable primary research, go to any database. You can go on Google scholar, but you probably need access to some of the journals (e.g. science direct might not work); go to your library, I'm sure they have access to a journal database; or go through your school, if you're in school. Most research that is reputable is peer-reviewed. Googling XYZ will not bring up reputable web sites, unless they're a .edu. Actually, that's an option, too - google something, and then go to advanced search and in search criteria limit it to only .edu sites.
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  #13  
February 15th, 2009, 01:58 AM
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It is completely irresponsible to keep having children when you cannot afford them (TTC). Having a child is expensive (esp. more than one). Its a complete injustice to the child/children. I'm not saying that I agree with abortion, because I don't, I'm just saying you shouldn't try to conceive knowing you can't provide financially. Of course accidents happen, (people get pregnant even on BC, etc) in that case then of course its different...
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February 15th, 2009, 02:45 PM
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Let's visit this 'providing for the children bit' My parents provided for 7 children and they were surviving on no income whatsoever half the time. Sure my dad would have a job here and there, but for the most part, he'd be in school on some grant or another. The grant would provide his schooling and pay for our car insurance and whathave you for a year. We participated in a lot of 'gleaner' type programs growing up and grew a lot in our own garden. My mom only used cloth diapers and she breastfed her 5 youngest. Now this might seem extreme, but I'm just pointing out that what one person might say is 'financially unstable' might not be in the long run. Because it's not JUST money that factors in. It's also what you know how to do on your own or are willing to do to cut costs. I've gone my entire life getting my clothing from 'bag sales' and never once felt that I was not dressed to the par of my friends. Granted sometimes for my birthday I'd get something brand new from a relative... but still...

I must also point out that I've never 'tried' to have any of my children. I say whatever happens happens, Haha. With my oldest some doofuses I knew told me that if you have a yeast infection that means you can't get pregnant. I was young, and stupid about these matters because of the way I was raised and believed them! Whoops! Then, with my second, I was opperating on that whole 'if your on your period, you can't get pregnant' well, now I know better. And then my youngest was absolutly pure stupidity on my part. I was using the pull out method because my RX for the pill ran out and I had to wait 3 months for a spot to open up for me at the free clinic. But, I wasn't getting pleased enough (to make this PG) and didn't exactly let him pull out at the last minute. But, now I've got a more reliable and longer lasting BC... even though it is screwing up my body. But, still, the point is that we don't always have a choice about getting pregnant. And I feel that it is wrong for me to have an abortion. (personally I think it's murder, but I wouldn't hold it against anyone else to do it themselves) So, in my mind, we find a way to get financially stable no matter what when we find out we are pregnant. And, people, we can come up with some pretty creative ways too!
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  #15  
February 15th, 2009, 04:02 PM
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Let's visit this 'providing for the children bit' My parents provided for 7 children and they were surviving on no income whatsoever half the time. Sure my dad would have a job here and there, but for the most part, he'd be in school on some grant or another. The grant would provide his schooling and pay for our car insurance and whathave you for a year. We participated in a lot of 'gleaner' type programs growing up and grew a lot in our own garden. My mom only used cloth diapers and she breastfed her 5 youngest. Now this might seem extreme, but I'm just pointing out that what one person might say is 'financially unstable' might not be in the long run. Because it's not JUST money that factors in. It's also what you know how to do on your own or are willing to do to cut costs. I've gone my entire life getting my clothing from 'bag sales' and never once felt that I was not dressed to the par of my friends. Granted sometimes for my birthday I'd get something brand new from a relative... but still...

I must also point out that I've never 'tried' to have any of my children. I say whatever happens happens, Haha. With my oldest some doofuses I knew told me that if you have a yeast infection that means you can't get pregnant. I was young, and stupid about these matters because of the way I was raised and believed them! Whoops! Then, with my second, I was opperating on that whole 'if your on your period, you can't get pregnant' well, now I know better. And then my youngest was absolutly pure stupidity on my part. I was using the pull out method because my RX for the pill ran out and I had to wait 3 months for a spot to open up for me at the free clinic. But, I wasn't getting pleased enough (to make this PG) and didn't exactly let him pull out at the last minute. But, now I've got a more reliable and longer lasting BC... even though it is screwing up my body. But, still, the point is that we don't always have a choice about getting pregnant. And I feel that it is wrong for me to have an abortion. (personally I think it's murder, but I wouldn't hold it against anyone else to do it themselves) So, in my mind, we find a way to get financially stable no matter what when we find out we are pregnant. And, people, we can come up with some pretty creative ways too![/b]
Like I said, I don't agree with abortion. EVER.

All I was stating is that "if you are TTC, knowing you can't provide financially then you are being irresponsible & doing an injustice to the child/children." Of course, sometimes accidents happens, then you just have to deal with it and do what you have to do to provide as much as you can.

I don't think its right though to just "let whatever happens, happens" though with pro-create. Esp. with so many forms of BC out there. I don't want to stray away from the topic at hand (even though its inevitable), I just think that too many people (not everyone) with that train of thought- depend too much on welfare, etc.

Sure, its meant to HELP, not to live off of, and thats the problem- a lot of people don't realize that.

I would LOVE to have 5 kids, but I won't as of right now, cause I know I can't afford it- same as I would love to have a brand new house (instead of this apartment) but I can't now. People need to start taking responsibility & realize that as much as we would like to say money isn't an object- it is.
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  #16  
February 15th, 2009, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Like I said, I don't agree with abortion. EVER.

All I was stating is that "if you are TTC, knowing you can't provide financially then you are being irresponsible & doing an injustice to the child/children." Of course, sometimes accidents happens, then you just have to deal with it and do what you have to do to provide as much as you can.

I don't think its right though to just "let whatever happens, happens" though with pro-create. Esp. with so many forms of BC out there. I don't want to stray away from the topic at hand (even though its inevitable), I just think that too many people (not everyone) with that train of thought- depend too much on welfare, etc.[/b]
Um okay, so let me clarify my statement. I'm on birth control. However should my birthcontrol fail, I guess that's some kind of direct sign I was meant to get pregnant. Also, with the first 2 times I got pregnant. I was REALLY stupid, but stupid is not an exuse for abortion, is it? And the 3rd time, I really needed to get that appointment at the free clinic, but they wouldn't listen to me. Of course, It might have been too late by the time I got there, because the doctor checking me out for my pregnancy found out I had cervical cancer. Thank goodness it's gone!

Quote:
Sure, its meant to HELP, not to live off of, and thats the problem- a lot of people don't realize that.

I would LOVE to have 5 kids, but I won't as of right now, cause I know I can't afford it- same as I would love to have a brand new house (instead of this apartment) but I can't now. People need to start taking responsibility & realize that as much as we would like to say money isn't an object- it is.[/b]
The only point I make is that maybe money is a object, but sometimes we make a bigger deal about how much of an object it is. I own my own trailor... maybe that's not as financially stable as some would see it, but I think that it's pretty stable for me. Plus, like the example of my parents, do we need pampers? Or could we get by with Cloth diapers. What about formula? Do we need it? Or could we just feed ourselves and offer the breast to the baby for a whole lot less. It's all perspective in my eyes. I know a lot of people that have changed their lifestyles around when they found out they were rather unexpectantly expecting. And, they wouldn't change it for the world. Nor, would you or I find them in some way lacking or weird to us.

I realize the points others have made here are REALLY good! And I agree with most of what has been said. I'd just like to point out that all is not always 'cut and dry' here. That the 'typical' way of doing things is not always the standard we should hold to when it comes to raising our children. Hehe, some might even argue that the cheaper way is more healthy and all round better for our children.
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  #17  
February 15th, 2009, 08:37 PM
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If you can currently afford your living conditions comfortably with ONE SALARY then IMO you are stable for a child. I live check to check, me TTC would be irresponsible! Doesn't mean I'd run out and have an abortion right after the BFP though if it happened.

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February 15th, 2009, 10:19 PM
dismalgrin's Avatar Veteran
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If you can currently afford your living conditions comfortably with ONE SALARY then IMO you are stable for a child. I live check to check, me TTC would be irresponsible! Doesn't mean I'd run out and have an abortion right after the BFP though if it happened.[/b]
So, I agree with that. :biggrin:
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  #19  
February 16th, 2009, 02:10 PM
Century Darkthorne's Avatar Angel Of Darkness
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I just have a question based on this current debate then. In your opinions then should I not ever have a child because my fiance is going to be on government assistance most likely for the rest of his life. He is on SSI and always will be because he is not fit to work. I on the other hand CAN work and do not plan on on going SSI but at the moment while i'm looking for work i DO have food stamps and i DO have medicaid that if i were to have a child he/she would also be covered on and i could get help from WIC just for the start if i need it as i am planning on going to school online to be a medical assistant and it is only a 6-8 week program that i could do with kids or no kids pregnant or not pregnant right from the comfort of my laptop. I am n ot sure of the specifics of how his SSI works but i think if i make more money than him and we get legally married he loses it or something i'm not sure. But basically i will never be in a family with 2 incomes and will most likely always need to have government for something because of my fiance so does that mean i should never have a child because i'm supposedly "a blood sucking leech of the system"?
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  #20  
February 16th, 2009, 10:26 PM
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I don't personally count SSI as welfare assistance. And I would hope that most on here agree with me. You guys have paid into that yourselves anyway, so why not benifit from it? I think the point most are making here is not that you shouldn't have children if you are so called 'doomed' to a life living off government aid, but you shouldn't have children so that you can live off of government aid. An income is an income no matter how you look at it, and as long as you know how to budget that money carefully and use it to the best interests of your families well being, I don't think it would be right of anyone to judge you based on where your income is coming from.

I live off of SSI myself, I get $800.00 a month. I've learned to use this money to care for my family and have some left over. Granted, I do go to food pantries and the like for assistance, and I didn't get my SSI until after I had children. But, I used my back pay to buy a mobile home and set myself up to be able to care for my children on my own. Also, I'm currently working on setting up a home business of knitting items for others to buy. You have to work with what you have... and if you can find a workable solution to being able to support a family I don't see how that would be a problem. Of course, I don't think you should plan on growing yourself a little army off SSI, but obviously 1 child would probably not upset your financial life too much.
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