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ND House Passes Abortion Ban


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  #1  
February 22nd, 2009, 09:39 PM
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Thoughts?
Read article here
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  #2  
February 22nd, 2009, 10:26 PM
Jarheadwed's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Just as interesting as the article, read all the comments below. Very interesting points are raised, including the decision that a fertilized egg has all the rights of a living person. What a slippery slope that could be.
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  #3  
February 22nd, 2009, 10:29 PM
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The House voted 51-41 this afternoon to declare that a fertilized egg has all the rights of any person.[/b]
In other news, The House are a bunch of idiots who apparently completely neglected to read or even glance at the relevant science.

The notion that a fertilized egg has the same rights as a human being is one of the sillier ones out there. If they said 'fetus', they may have an argument, as human-like qualities do start emerging later in pregnancy, but all an egg needs to do is be fertilized to be considered human? I hope they really and truly understand all the implications of this statement.
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  #4  
February 23rd, 2009, 05:04 AM
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I agree. I doubt this will get far.
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  #5  
February 23rd, 2009, 05:38 AM
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I agree. I doubt this will get far.[/b]
I am against abortion but I don't think this will go far.
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  #6  
February 23rd, 2009, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
The House voted 51-41 this afternoon to declare that a fertilized egg has all the rights of any person.[/b]
In other news, The House are a bunch of idiots who apparently completely neglected to read or even glance at the relevant science.
[/b][/quote]


Could you please provide me with some references as to where "science" has determined the exact point where an egg turns into a human?
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  #7  
February 23rd, 2009, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
<div class='quotemain'>The House voted 51-41 this afternoon to declare that a fertilized egg has all the rights of any person.[/b]
In other news, The House are a bunch of idiots who apparently completely neglected to read or even glance at the relevant science.
[/b][/quote]


Could you please provide me with some references as to where "science" has determined the exact point where an egg turns into a human?
[/b][/quote]

I'd be happy to organize them, they are scattered all over my computer right now. But for now.

1. The Cerebral Cortex has been determined to be the center of conscious thought.

2. Therefore, without a cerebral cortex, there is no conscious thought.

3. The earliest anyone can determine that the cerebral cortex begins functioning is somewhere around 25 weeks.
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  #8  
February 23rd, 2009, 12:51 PM
GinaB's Avatar Ex-Navy Lifetime NRA!
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honest question here and not snarky.........

but if someone is a "vegetable/brain dead" and doesn't have "conscious thought" does that make them "not a human"?
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  #9  
February 23rd, 2009, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
<div class='quotemain'>The House voted 51-41 this afternoon to declare that a fertilized egg has all the rights of any person.[/b]
In other news, The House are a bunch of idiots who apparently completely neglected to read or even glance at the relevant science.
[/b]

Could you please provide me with some references as to where "science" has determined the exact point where an egg turns into a human?
[/b][/quote]

I'd be happy to organize them, they are scattered all over my computer right now. But for now.

1. The Cerebral Cortex has been determined to be the center of conscious thought.

2. Therefore, without a cerebral cortex, there is no conscious thought.

3. The earliest anyone can determine that the cerebral cortex begins functioning is somewhere around 25 weeks.
[/b][/quote]



The belief that human life is defined by a functioning cerebral cortex is obviously your opinion, NOT science. As the poster above me pointed out, this would mean that brain dead individuals have no right to life and are not considered human, right? Care to provide me with REAL proof?
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  #10  
February 23rd, 2009, 02:16 PM
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I think ITS GREAT & should def. stick!!

If you kill a pregnant woman, you get charged with double MURDER, so this would only make sense. Its about dang time. You can't have one & not the other, they go hand in hand!
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  #11  
February 23rd, 2009, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
honest question here and not snarky.........

but if someone is a "vegetable/brain dead" and doesn't have "conscious thought" does that make them "not a human"?[/b]
Exactly!

I have decided that I am 99.9% against abortion. I am still back and forth on situations like rape and incest...mostly just incest.

I hope this sticks.
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  #12  
February 23rd, 2009, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
honest question here and not snarky.........

but if someone is a "vegetable/brain dead" and doesn't have "conscious thought" does that make them "not a human"?[/b]
Well, I am not really arguing that an embryo or fetus isn't human. Just like I would never argue that Terri Schaivo wasn't human. They were certainly human, in the sense that they had human DNA. But are either sentient? No. Should Terri Schaivo been allowed to die far earlier than she was? Absolutely. She died 15 years before her body did. It was borderline cruel to leave her hanging in that half-dead state, In my so humble opinion.

I am pro-choice for two reasons.

1. No human, no matter how sentient, has the right to use my body to facilitate their own survival if at anytime I withdraw my consent. If you, a fully functional conscious human being, needs my kidney to survive and I tell you you can no longer use it, then I am within my rights to remove you from it. (I understand that there is no way to do this, but it's a hypothetical. And the same principles have been tested as it relates to organ donation.)
It must be this way if we are to retain autonomy over our own bodies, which to me is a central definition of liberty.

2. I see no reason to severely disrupt the lives of the sentient in order to protect the lives of the non-sentient.


Quote:
The belief that human life is defined by a functioning cerebral cortex is obviously your opinion, NOT science. As the poster above me pointed out, this would mean that brain dead individuals have no right to life and are not considered human, right? Care to provide me with REAL proof?[/b]
It's obvious from your attitude that you will accept as "real proof" only God himself descending upon this debate and defining life for us, but I will give it a try anyway.

Go look up the condition "anencephaly". The top neural tube never closes and the larger part of the "upper brain" fails to develop. Most of the time, the condition is incompatible with any life, and the baby dies shortly after birth. In some cases, the reptilian brain allows the baby to survive, but it's no kind of "life" at all. There is no activity, no conscious thought, no reasoning. Therefore, no person. In many cases, doctors agree that the only thing that should be done for the anencephalic is to make provisions until the baby is allowed to die.

The question becomes "How are you defined?" What affirms your personal personhood? Rene DesCartes pondered the question for years before determining "I think, therefore I am" Everything you do as a person that makes a difference starts with a thought. If science has determined that thought is not possible, can it be argued that there is a person there? Without thought, I cannot even decide that now is a good time to feed myself. Without thought, we are shells. We lie inert, there is no life. Therefore, life is defined by thought.


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  #13  
February 23rd, 2009, 04:05 PM
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It's obvious from your attitude that you will accept as "real proof" only God himself descending upon this debate and defining life for us, but I will give it a try anyway.[/b]
Oh, brother, give me a freaking break... Quite the opposite, really. I just know that there is no way science has proven this, and all one can really go by for the basis of where life begins is personal belief and opinion. I am perfectly willing to admit that it is my personal belief that life begins at conception, but you, however, are trying to disguise your belief as scientific fact.
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  #14  
February 23rd, 2009, 04:27 PM
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I'm only going to comment specifically comment on the article's main feature.

Quote:
a fertilized egg has all the rights of any person.[/b]
I'm curious to know how IVF is going to be handled in ND at this point. Eggs that do not form properly are discarded, however now they are people are have to be given the choice for life. Ones that are tested with PGD and discarded for medical condition reasons will how HAVE to be implanted as they cannot be discarded. I'm curious to see how this works, really curious.

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  #15  
February 23rd, 2009, 04:57 PM
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Thoughts?
Read article here[/b]
Quote:
a fertilized egg has all the rights of any person.[/b]
It should state: a fertilized egg has rights over the mother carrying the egg. This is a crying shame and ^shows that a woman's body and her mind has no rights. It's too bad that they have no better politics to do. Prior to this, the women there in ND didn't have many abortion clincs anyway so it's just going backwards instead of forwards.

I will say it will be interesting to watch what happens politically. My understanding is that Obama believes that states should have more control over their stately matters yet he is pro-choice.
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  #16  
February 23rd, 2009, 05:36 PM
MissTorrieIfYou'reNasty's Avatar Co-Host of Heated Debates
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Quote:
It's obvious from your attitude that you will accept as "real proof" only God himself descending upon this debate and defining life for us, but I will give it a try anyway.[/b]
Oh, brother, give me a freaking break... Quite the opposite, really. I just know that there is no way science has proven this, and all one can really go by for the basis of where life begins is personal belief and opinion. I am perfectly willing to admit that it is my personal belief that life begins at conception, but you, however, are trying to disguise your belief as scientific fact.
[/b]
I like how you ignored the rest of my post. Nice.

Anyway, I am not trying to disguise my opinion as scientific fact, it is. It's scientific fact that the key parts of the cerebral cortex are not fully formed until around 23 weeks. It's scientific fact that there are no measurable brain waves until somewhere around 25 weeks. It is scientific fact that a fetus does not feel pain until around this time.

Tell me. What is life without thought? Why is thought and reasoning NOT a key component of life as we recognize it?


http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pain.htm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9053416/

Cessation of activity in the Cerebral Cortex in considered the cessation of life. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that the beginning of activity in the cerebral cortex is the beginning of life.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_argu.htm

The cerebral cortex is not present until around 22 weeks gestation.
http://www.ajnr.org/cgi/content/full/22/1/184

The cerebral cortex is the center of conscious thought.
http://www.fortunecity.com/millenium/bloss...indinbrain.html

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  #17  
February 23rd, 2009, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
It's obvious from your attitude that you will accept as "real proof" only God himself descending upon this debate and defining life for us, but I will give it a try anyway.[/b]
Oh, brother, give me a freaking break... Quite the opposite, really. I just know that there is no way science has proven this, and all one can really go by for the basis of where life begins is personal belief and opinion. I am perfectly willing to admit that it is my personal belief that life begins at conception, but you, however, are trying to disguise your belief as scientific fact.
[/b]
I like how you ignored the rest of my post. Nice.

Anyway, I am not trying to disguise my opinion as scientific fact, it is. It's scientific fact that the key parts of the cerebral cortex are not fully formed until around 23 weeks. It's scientific fact that there are no measurable brain waves until somewhere around 25 weeks. It is scientific fact that a fetus does not feel pain until around this time.

Tell me. What is life without thought? Why is thought and reasoning NOT a key component of life as we recognize it?


http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pain.htm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9053416/

Cessation of activity in the Cerebral Cortex in considered the cessation of life. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that the beginning of activity in the cerebral cortex is the beginning of life.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_argu.htm

The cerebral cortex is not present until around 22 weeks gestation.
http://www.ajnr.org/cgi/content/full/22/1/184

The cerebral cortex is the center of conscious thought.
http://www.fortunecity.com/millenium/bloss...indinbrain.html
[/b]
I didn't ignore the rest of your post, I just didn't comment on it because 1) it just further supported your OPINION and provided no scientific proof. You BELIEVE that life begins when the development of the cerebral cortex means the start of life. Some people believe that the beating heart is the start of human life. Others believe that it is at implantation, and others still believe that it is at the moment of conception. AND 2) I don't normally get into debating abortion, especially here on JM. I clicked on this thread because I wanted to read the link, but when I saw your claims about science proving exactly when life starts, I just had to call you on it, because I've never seen such BS in my life. I respect that you are pro-choice, but I would respect it a whole lot more if you would just be upfront and say that you believe that life starts at point X instead of trying to persuade others to see your POV through lies.
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  #18  
February 23rd, 2009, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
I didn't ignore the rest of your post, I just didn't comment on it because 1) it just further supported your OPINION and provided no scientific proof. You BELIEVE that life begins when the development of the cerebral cortex means the start of life. Some people believe that the beating heart is the start of human life. Others believe that it is at implantation, and others still believe that it is at the moment of conception. AND 2) I don't normally get into debating abortion, especially here on JM. I clicked on this thread because I wanted to read the link, but when I saw your claims about science proving exactly when life starts, I just had to call you on it, because I've never seen such BS in my life. I respect that you are pro-choice, but I would respect it a whole lot more if you would just be upfront and say that you believe that life starts at point X instead of trying to persuade others to see your POV through lies.[/b]

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  #19  
February 23rd, 2009, 07:36 PM
MissTorrieIfYou'reNasty's Avatar Co-Host of Heated Debates
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Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Torrie @ Feb 23 2009, 05:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>It's obvious from your attitude that you will accept as "real proof" only God himself descending upon this debate and defining life for us, but I will give it a try anyway.[/b]
Oh, brother, give me a freaking break... Quite the opposite, really. I just know that there is no way science has proven this, and all one can really go by for the basis of where life begins is personal belief and opinion. I am perfectly willing to admit that it is my personal belief that life begins at conception, but you, however, are trying to disguise your belief as scientific fact.
[/b]
I like how you ignored the rest of my post. Nice.

Anyway, I am not trying to disguise my opinion as scientific fact, it is. It's scientific fact that the key parts of the cerebral cortex are not fully formed until around 23 weeks. It's scientific fact that there are no measurable brain waves until somewhere around 25 weeks. It is scientific fact that a fetus does not feel pain until around this time.

Tell me. What is life without thought? Why is thought and reasoning NOT a key component of life as we recognize it?


http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pain.htm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9053416/

Cessation of activity in the Cerebral Cortex in considered the cessation of life. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that the beginning of activity in the cerebral cortex is the beginning of life.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_argu.htm

The cerebral cortex is not present until around 22 weeks gestation.
http://www.ajnr.org/cgi/content/full/22/1/184

The cerebral cortex is the center of conscious thought.
http://www.fortunecity.com/millenium/bloss...indinbrain.html
[/b][/quote]

I didn't ignore the rest of your post, I just didn't comment on it because 1) it just further supported your OPINION and provided no scientific proof. You BELIEVE that life begins when the development of the cerebral cortex means the start of life. Some people believe that the beating heart is the start of human life. Others believe that it is at implantation, and others still believe that it is at the moment of conception. AND 2) I don't normally get into debating abortion, especially here on JM. I clicked on this thread because I wanted to read the link, but when I saw your claims about science proving exactly when life starts, I just had to call you on it, because I've never seen such BS in my life. I respect that you are pro-choice, but I would respect it a whole lot more if you would just be upfront and say that you believe that life starts at point X instead of trying to persuade others to see your POV through lies.
[/b][/quote]

Your opinion is that life begins at conception, with a beating heart. However, since you have ignored all overtures to prove your hypothesis with science or anything else other than hysterically screaming that I am wrong, I am forced to conclude that your opinion is garbage.

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  #20  
February 23rd, 2009, 07:48 PM
fluffycheeks's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donomama @ Feb 23 2009, 07:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>
Quote:
It's obvious from your attitude that you will accept as "real proof" only God himself descending upon this debate and defining life for us, but I will give it a try anyway.[/b]
Oh, brother, give me a freaking break... Quite the opposite, really. I just know that there is no way science has proven this, and all one can really go by for the basis of where life begins is personal belief and opinion. I am perfectly willing to admit that it is my personal belief that life begins at conception, but you, however, are trying to disguise your belief as scientific fact.
[/b]
I like how you ignored the rest of my post. Nice.

Anyway, I am not trying to disguise my opinion as scientific fact, it is. It's scientific fact that the key parts of the cerebral cortex are not fully formed until around 23 weeks. It's scientific fact that there are no measurable brain waves until somewhere around 25 weeks. It is scientific fact that a fetus does not feel pain until around this time.

Tell me. What is life without thought? Why is thought and reasoning NOT a key component of life as we recognize it?


http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pain.htm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9053416/

Cessation of activity in the Cerebral Cortex in considered the cessation of life. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that the beginning of activity in the cerebral cortex is the beginning of life.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_argu.htm

The cerebral cortex is not present until around 22 weeks gestation.
http://www.ajnr.org/cgi/content/full/22/1/184

The cerebral cortex is the center of conscious thought.
http://www.fortunecity.com/millenium/bloss...indinbrain.html
[/b]
I didn't ignore the rest of your post, I just didn't comment on it because 1) it just further supported your OPINION and provided no scientific proof. You BELIEVE that life begins when the development of the cerebral cortex means the start of life. Some people believe that the beating heart is the start of human life. Others believe that it is at implantation, and others still believe that it is at the moment of conception. AND 2) I don't normally get into debating abortion, especially here on JM. I clicked on this thread because I wanted to read the link, but when I saw your claims about science proving exactly when life starts, I just had to call you on it, because I've never seen such BS in my life. I respect that you are pro-choice, but I would respect it a whole lot more if you would just be upfront and say that you believe that life starts at point X instead of trying to persuade others to see your POV through lies.
[/b][/quote]

Your opinion is that life begins at conception, with a beating heart. However, since you have ignored all overtures to prove your hypothesis with science or anything else other than hysterically screaming that I am wrong, I am forced to conclude that your opinion is garbage.
[/b][/quote]


Hysterically screaming? Hardly. You'd know if I was. Ignored all overtures to prove my hypothesis, huh? Pretty fancy words, I must say. But it's obvious that you're not actually reading what I wrote, which is that SCIENCE HAS NOT PROVEN IT ONE WAY OR ANOTHER!!! I could go on until I was blue in the face citing references about life ending with the cessetation of a heartbeat (which, according to you would PROVE that life begins at the first heartbeat), or with life ending with the end of cellular regeneration (which, according to you would PROVE that life begins at the first cell split), etc., but it doesn't change the fact that what I believe is a personal belief and what you believe is a personal belief. I won't be so rude as to call your personal belief garbage because that's just plain rude, and I'm sure you have a reason for believing that, even if though I know that in your heart of hearts you know that you don't have a leg to stand on with "scientific proof." C'mon, just admit that there is no scientific proof one way or another, that you were just spouting off a bunch of BS to try to get people to see your way, and that it's your personal belief and we can move on. You know you wanna.
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