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Abortion Debate

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  #1  
March 10th, 2009, 11:03 AM
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First, I do not believe in abortion as a form of birth control or simply because you don’t want the baby. (Or the sex of the baby for that reason) But I am shaking my head at all of you who are quick to judge saying “ I would NEVER have an abortion for ANY reason PERIOD) I have read some other topics on this forum.

Could you honestly say that if you were pregnant and you went into your ultrasound and found out your baby had a horrific condition such ie)You child’s brain is missing completely/ or failed to partially develop that your pride would allow your child to suffer in ways unbearable? Or what if you, a single mother of 3 small children had to for whatever reason have one or you, yourself would be at risk for death?

I do not hope or wish the day upon anyone that they are told these kind of things and have to make probably the toughest decision in their life. Until you are in that position, which most of you haven’t been and that’s why you have the stance you have, then you too, will realize that you shouldn’t be quick to judge that abortion is wrong in all situations… but having one for a reason that is not right is wrong.
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  #2  
March 10th, 2009, 11:32 AM
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If my life was at risk I would have one. If the doctor was 100% sure the baby would suffer I would have one.
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  #3  
March 10th, 2009, 03:36 PM
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I'm with both of you ladies. I've been in the position of "your baby isn't going to make it, do you want to put an end to it now, or wait until your body can't handle the weirdness going on and fails on all of you?" I chose to end it, if I couldn't bring home my baby in the end, for me going on wasn't worth it. I know for others that's different (I'm not quick to jump on the brain thing, a friend of mine was told her son was missing a part of his brain and infact, he does have it and is a healthy 6 month old), but if I was advised of some of the more serious issues (acenephaly for example) I was chose to induce my labor then, to avoid long drawn out suffering for everyone involved.
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  #4  
March 10th, 2009, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithen_loth_nim View Post
but if I was advised of some of the more serious issues (acenephaly for example) I was chose to induce my labor then, to avoid long drawn out suffering for everyone involved.
Yes, thats what I was gunna write at first, but I figured most would not know what it was. If you dont, look it up Aencephaly and I personally wouldnt want my helpless baby to suffer like that.

Thanks for your replies Ladies. I just was reading some of the replies on the other abortion topics and could not help but shake my head and say " These people have never been in this position have they?"
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  #5  
March 10th, 2009, 05:50 PM
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I just looked it up and the website showed pictures of babies born with it. How heartbreaking.
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  #6  
March 11th, 2009, 07:29 AM
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Ok.....Never really thought about it this way.........but I guess for medical I would have to be for it. I have been pregnant 19 times in my life. 1, I aborted (17 yrs old), 2nd was my son at 26 yrs old, 16 losses between (5-12 weeks), and my little girl now at 35 yrs old.

In those 16 losses I had 4 ectopics which I had the methotrexate shot. I guess those would be considered abortions?
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  #7  
March 11th, 2009, 07:35 AM
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*sigh* I regret saying that I have done so.

This is just me...I don't pretend to know what you have been through...at all...

However, it was after having my first that I realized the impact of what I had done. I regret it. I wholeheartedly believe that I should have carried the baby as long as I could...who am I to question what God gave me?

To each her own...I regret having done mine...
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  #8  
March 11th, 2009, 07:44 AM
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I'm sorry for your pain
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  #9  
March 13th, 2009, 04:52 PM
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I don't believe that I have the power to judge what life is worth living. I believe that only God has that power. The only way I would have an abortion, and the only way I would support another woman having an abortion is if the woman's life is in IMMINENT danger. And I don't consider "psychological stress" imminent danger, nor do I consider the necessity for a c-section, which has been used as a "medical excuse" to me, before, an adequate excuse. If the mother will almost certainly die by carrying the child to term, I can understand it, and would consider that. Other than that, I'm not for it.

I will say, in terms of cases like the 9 and 11 year old girls in Brazil, recently in the news, I'm not sure how I feel. While I think it's sad an innocent life suffers, I also understand the physical repercussions on a child's body.
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  #10  
March 13th, 2009, 11:37 PM
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I think that in the case where there is a chromosomal abnormality that will likely terminate the pregnancy anyhow (Trisomy 21 comes to mind), I would go ahead and schedule the D&C. Is that what we're talking about here?

I think if there was no way that the baby could survive, and I knew that there wasn't any chance of survival, I would definitely do it. I couldn't do it for other mental/physical deformities.
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  #11  
March 14th, 2009, 10:09 AM
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[quote=DollBabyKG;14871078]I don't believe that I have the power to judge what life is worth living. I believe that only God has that power. quote]


If God has a power? ....Why would he create a baby that has so severe deformaties that it will not allow him/her to live a normal life?
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  #12  
March 14th, 2009, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NavyWife1981 View Post
I think that in the case where there is a chromosomal abnormality that will likely terminate the pregnancy anyhow (Trisomy 21 comes to mind), I would go ahead and schedule the D&C. Is that what we're talking about here?

I think if there was no way that the baby could survive, and I knew that there wasn't any chance of survival, I would definitely do it. I couldn't do it for other mental/physical deformities.
Yes. But not necassarily Trisomy 21. That is down syndrome and most babies have the capabilty to live a long life. With most of the other trisomy's they never make it through utero, are born still, or come out gasping for air and die within a few hours. I guess the point Is who are they to judge for saying I would NEVER have an abortion when they have never been in the posistion?
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  #13  
March 14th, 2009, 12:55 PM
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I think I can judge that all abortion is wrong without ever having been in one of the positions mentioned. Who I can't judge is the mother making that decision. I may not understand what she is going through etc but I can say that all abortion is wrong.
i have never understood the argument that one can't say all abortion is wrong if they don't experience certain circumstances for themselves. Can you say it is wrong to kill a one year old in all circumstances? According to the logic in the original post you can't unless you have experienced every possible horrible situation that may face someone. Well, I for one, can say that it is always wrong to kill an innocent person - whether that person is in the womb still or 1 years old or 99 years old.
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  #14  
March 15th, 2009, 09:11 AM
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[QUOTE=Ryleeroo;14878542]
Quote:
Originally Posted by DollBabyKG View Post
I don't believe that I have the power to judge what life is worth living. I believe that only God has that power. quote]


If God has a power? ....Why would he create a baby that has so severe deformaties that it will not allow him/her to live a normal life?
Why would he create individuals with spina bifida? Or Down's Syndrome? Or Fibromyalgia? Or Diabetes? We all have lessons to learn in this life, lessons to teach, trials to face. It's not up to me (or anyone) to judge WHY, however, I personally believe, it's up to us take the lives we are given, and give them as much love, and respect, as we would ANY "normal" person. To learn from each other, and take care of each other. And that includes those of us who are not "normal."

At that rate, why does God allow ANY of us to suffer? Why are there people in bankruptcy, and foreclosure? Why are hardworking individuals losing their jobs? Why do children die at a young age? These questions could go on all day long. The bottom line is that suffering exists, and there are lessons for all of us to learn from there. There must be opposition in all things.


And even if you take religion out of it, I think it's a dangerous and slippery slope, when we start deciding what disorders are "worth" living, and which ones aren't. For example, CF Testing, is now offered to all pregnant women. If they and their husband's have been determined to be carriers, baby can be tested. CF children often live into adulthood (into their 30's now, which is an incredible improvement), though they typical suffer through frustrating boughts of breathing difficulty, hospitalizations, etc. Is that a life not worth living? Down's Syndrome children live long, and full (albeit not "normal") lives. They often move out of their parents homes, get jobs, apartments, even get married. Is that a life not worth living? Where does it stop? As genetic testing gets more advanced, we will be able to identify more and more illnesses. Diabetes, heart disease, Lupus, MS, etc. Is it ethical to terminate any child with any illness that somehow makes them less than normal? This is a slippery slope we're treading down here. While I respect other individual's right to their opinions, I cannot respect the decision to terminate a life, because it's simply not "convenient" to raise a special needs child, or it's expensive. I just can't.
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  #15  
March 17th, 2009, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DollBabyKG View Post
Why would he create individuals with spina bifida? Or Down's Syndrome? Or Fibromyalgia? Or Diabetes? We all have lessons to learn in this life, lessons to teach, trials to face. It's not up to me (or anyone) to judge WHY, however, I personally believe, it's up to us take the lives we are given, and give them as much love, and respect, as we would ANY "normal" person. To learn from each other, and take care of each other. And that includes those of us who are not "normal."

At that rate, why does God allow ANY of us to suffer? Why are there people in bankruptcy, and foreclosure? Why are hardworking individuals losing their jobs? Why do children die at a young age? These questions could go on all day long. The bottom line is that suffering exists, and there are lessons for all of us to learn from there. There must be opposition in all things.


And even if you take religion out of it, I think it's a dangerous and slippery slope, when we start deciding what disorders are "worth" living, and which ones aren't. For example, CF Testing, is now offered to all pregnant women. If they and their husband's have been determined to be carriers, baby can be tested. CF children often live into adulthood (into their 30's now, which is an incredible improvement), though they typical suffer through frustrating boughts of breathing difficulty, hospitalizations, etc. Is that a life not worth living? Down's Syndrome children live long, and full (albeit not "normal") lives. They often move out of their parents homes, get jobs, apartments, even get married. Is that a life not worth living? Where does it stop? As genetic testing gets more advanced, we will be able to identify more and more illnesses. Diabetes, heart disease, Lupus, MS, etc. Is it ethical to terminate any child with any illness that somehow makes them less than normal? This is a slippery slope we're treading down here. While I respect other individual's right to their opinions, I cannot respect the decision to terminate a life, because it's simply not "convenient" to raise a special needs child, or it's expensive. I just can't.
To suffer is to be human, God gave us our chance to be pure and unsinful and free from all this, and we botched it and he flooded us out. Apparenlty what sprung from the waters didn't learn from the first mistakes either... so we continue to suffer

But we're not talking Downs or CF or Spina Bifida.. we're talking fatal abnormalities.

My boys had Trisomy 8 complete, aka Warkany syndrome. They had three full deformed copies of the 8th chromosome. One had already passed and the other was passing. Had they survived past 19 weeks (which very very very few do, and mine would not have because of the deformity in the choromosome) they could have been inflicted with any of the following: retarded psychomotor development, moderate to severe mental retardation, variable growth patterns (abnormally short or tall stature,) an expressionless face, and many musculoskeletal, visceral, and eye abnormalities. Tho it has been said that this cannot be passed between parents and child, the fact that their father has a very mild version of Trisomy 8 Mosaicism, and their sister was stillborn from Trisomy 8 has led so some research here to a genetic link. I do not have any extra or missing choromosmes.

Ryleeroo's little one had Trisomy 18, Edwards syndrome. And had it made it to birth, would have had less than a 1% chance of making it to it's 10th birthday. And that doesn't include the possible health issues that it could have faced. I'll ask you to find those yourself as I do not want to cause her any extra distress.


As I said, we're talking of no survival, or little, or no quality of life at all. Most of the disorders you listed MOST of us would not terminate for as they can be lived with/dealt with over time. I know someone who has spina bifida and except for getting sore very fast, lives a completely normal life, on two feet. Even drives a motorcycle.
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  #16  
March 17th, 2009, 01:44 PM
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But, to ME, personally, it doesn't matter. I've read, and understand the complications of a myriad of genetic disorders, for school, and for personal interest (I'm a pre-med student), but I just cannot be the one to determine when a life is worth saving, and when it's worth ending. For me, personally, I do not feel it's my place.

If the child didn't survive until it's 10th birthday, then that's just the plan that God had for that life (again, in my opinion). But, I will bet that taking care of that child, and coming into contact with him/her would teach those around it many valuable lessons, including gratitude, compassion, love, etc. No matter what the disorder, including ancephaly, which is not survivable in any fashion, I could not be the one to make the decision to end the life of my child, no matter how painful it would be to continue it.

While I certainly don't "judge" women who choose differently than I do, and view it in a different light than those who have abortions because of a simple unwanted pregnancy, for me personally, I could not do it. The only time I could, personally ever consider termination is if my own life were in imminent danger, because I feel that I have a responsibility to the children I already have.
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  #17  
March 18th, 2009, 02:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryleeroo View Post
Could you honestly say that if you were pregnant and you went into your ultrasound and found out your baby had a horrific condition such ie)You child’s brain is missing completely/ or failed to partially develop that your pride would allow your child to suffer in ways unbearable? It is not pride. It is a belief in a life being of equal value from the moment of fertilization to the moment of natural death. It's the belief that I do not have the right to decide a different worth/value/quality for that life. Or what if you, a single mother of 3 small children had to for whatever reason have one or you, yourself would be at risk for death? At risk for death does not equal certain death if I did not terminate my child at that instant.

...you shouldn’t be quick to judge that abortion is wrong in all situations… but having one for a reason that is not right is wrong. I can judge that ending a life at any stage is wrong. How can you say I can't and then say that "having one for a reason that is not right is wrong."? Why can you (or anyone) judge what is right and wrong and I can't?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
I think I can judge that all abortion is wrong without ever having been in one of the positions mentioned. Who I can't judge is the mother making that decision. I may not understand what she is going through etc but I can say that all abortion is wrong.
Exactly. I do not hold any ill feeling towards women who have had abortions. I believe most of them feel a great deal of pain from their loss. I know the pain of four mcs and I can't imagine the pain of an abortion, no matter what the reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Tithen~ View Post
As I said, we're talking of no survival, or little, or no quality of life at all.
Try to understand that some of us believe we are not to be the judge of quality of life. As I said, I believe all life from fertilization to natural death is equal and should have the same respect. I can not decide which life is of enough quality to continue (that includes adults with terminal diseases and elderly suffering at the end of their life), and I say that with no harshness towards those who have done so. I have no tests or ultrasounds done during pgcy because I will not terminate no matter what.
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  #18  
March 18th, 2009, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DollBabyKG View Post
If the child didn't survive until it's 10th birthday, then that's just the plan that God had for that life (again, in my opinion). But, I will bet that taking care of that child, and coming into contact with him/her would teach those around it many valuable lessons, including gratitude, compassion, love, etc. No matter what the disorder, including ancephaly, which is not survivable in any fashion, I could not be the one to make the decision to end the life of my child, no matter how painful it would be to continue it.

While I certainly don't "judge" women who choose differently than I do, and view it in a different light than those who have abortions because of a simple unwanted pregnancy, for me personally, I could not do it. The only time I could, personally ever consider termination is if my own life were in imminent danger, because I feel that I have a responsibility to the children I already have.
So you would be okay with keeping a child alive who had no quality of life whatsoever, just suffered for 10 years, and having to tell that poor child that he is going to die when he's 10 years old? That's horrible. If I became pregnant with a baby and the doctor told me that this baby would suffer horribly, have no quality of life, and would only live for 10 years, I would of course abort. It would be horrible to give birth to the child and make him suffer just because you think abortion is murder. I hate when people say that people's disabilities teach people compassion. So the suffering of the child doesn't matter? There are other ways for people to learn compassion without human suffering. Humans suffer enough. Why give birth to a child who will suffer for his entire life? Why is that noble or good? It would be more noble to abort the fetus and prevent its suffering. I disagree with aborting fetuses with disabilities, but when it comes to this, I feel completely different on the issue. People with disabilities like blindness, deafness, autism, Down syndrome, etc. can have good lives. I know a little boy who has mito. He has a g-tube, he has trouble breathing, he has so many medical issues, but he's still a happy kid. His parents are dealing with his issues and while he'll never be a normal kid, he's not suffering. I couldn't abort a fetus with these problems, but I could and would abort a fetus that didn't have a whole brain or had the other issues that PPs talked about. Why make a child suffer just for your political and religious views?
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  #19  
March 18th, 2009, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaFish View Post
Try to understand that some of us believe we are not to be the judge of quality of life. As I said, I believe all life from fertilization to natural death is equal and should have the same respect. I can not decide which life is of enough quality to continue (that includes adults with terminal diseases and elderly suffering at the end of their life), and I say that with no harshness towards those who have done so. I have no tests or ultrasounds done during pgcy because I will not terminate no matter what.
So if you were born with a horrible condition that made you suffer all the time, 24/7, for your entire life, and there was nothing to alleviate it, you would still want to live? For someone like that, there is no quality of life. You can't possibly enjoy life if you're constantly in pain. There are people who beg their health care providers to assist in their suicide because their pain is so bad that there's nothing left for them but death. Some of these people can't move or even breathe without being in immense pain. Why would you bring a child into the world knowing that this will be that child's life and that he may want to die? I don't understand why anyone would bring a child into the world fully knowing that that child is going to suffer. IMO, that is immeasurably cruel.
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  #20  
March 18th, 2009, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Tithen~ View Post
To suffer is to be human, God gave us our chance to be pure and unsinful and free from all this, and we botched it and he flooded us out. Apparenlty what sprung from the waters didn't learn from the first mistakes either... so we continue to suffer

But we're not talking Downs or CF or Spina Bifida.. we're talking fatal abnormalities.
I totally agree with this quote. We are not talking about special needs children we are talking about FATAL diagnosis' meaning a death sentance. Where there is a 98 % chance your baby wont live but a few hours to months after birth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DollBabyKG View Post

While I certainly don't "judge" women who choose differently than I do, and view it in a different light than those who have abortions because of a simple unwanted pregnancy, for me personally, I could not do it. The only time I could, personally ever consider termination is if my own life were in imminent danger, because I feel that I have a responsibility to the children I already have.
I think it is apples to oranges, when you compare a medical termination(fatal diagnosis) vs an abortion (because you just didnt want to get pregnant)

Choosing not to get an abortion of an unwanted child can result in adoption for a faimly that very much wants a baby. Choosing not to medically terminate for fatal diagnosis results in death for a family that very much wants a baby. Two totally different situations here.
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