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"Window to the Womb" laws


Abortion Debate

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  #1  
May 19th, 2009, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Nebraska is the latest state to debate what activists call "window to the womb" laws, which require that women be shown an ultrasound of the fetus before going ahead with an abortion.
Agree or disagree? Why or why not?
Source
Understanding America's Shift on Abortion - TIME
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  #2  
May 19th, 2009, 11:17 PM
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I think a better solution would be to require a mandatory counseling session before the abortion where both a physician and a therapist are available to answer questions and provide information on both the physical and psychological symptoms that the woman will experience following the procedure. If the woman requests an ultrasound, then it should be allowed. Not mandated. The goal should be to allow the woman to make a fully informed decision in which she understands all of her options rather than blackmailing her into a pregnancy she isn't prepared for.

I fully agree with Obama that abortions should legal but rare. The only way to accomplish that is with education. That means comprehensive sex education in schools and over-the-counter availability of the morning after pill. Whether a woman is going to terminate a pregnancy or continue it, the decision shouldn't be one that she doesn't wholeheartedly agree with. A window to the womb law is just going to inflict psychological trauma on the women who truly feel like they can't continue the pregnancy and choose to abort, such as in cases of rape, incest or simply not being ready to be pregnant.

Does the law have any other purpose other than manipulating emotions?
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  #3  
May 20th, 2009, 09:56 AM
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Those were exactly my thoughts. It serves no other purpose than to make the patient feel guilty. Did you see this part of the article too?
Quote:
The Missouri Senate just passed a bill that would require doctors to talk about a fetus' development and its ability to feel pain. Opponents of "informed consent" laws that talk about fetal pain warn that doing so just causes the woman pain, and call it emotional blackmail.
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  #5  
May 20th, 2009, 02:03 PM
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This is a hard one. Obviously, if a woman was raped or a victim of incest, this would be traumatic. There should be an exclusion to this law in these cases. Aside from those types of issiues, I don't believe that women have to be so irresponsible that they cannot avoid abortions in the first place. Be an advocate for yourself and don't get yourself into that mess in the first place, and you'll eliminate the need for such an act. But the problem lies within the ability to have some self-control. Until we have that, whether or not you show an u/s pic, change laws, etc, we'll have to face the fact that abortion will not stop. And, maybe the u/s may change some women's minds, and maybe it won't. I don't know WHAT to say as far as making it a law. I think all of this discussion stems from all the problems people put on themselves. Its sickening.
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  #6  
May 20th, 2009, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSwishing4number5someday View Post
This is a hard one. Obviously, if a woman was raped or a victim of incest, this would be traumatic. There should be an exclusion to this law in these cases. Aside from those types of issiues, I don't believe that women have to be so irresponsible that they cannot avoid abortions in the first place. Be an advocate for yourself and don't get yourself into that mess in the first place, and you'll eliminate the need for such an act. But the problem lies within the ability to have some self-control. Until we have that, whether or not you show an u/s pic, change laws, etc, we'll have to face the fact that abortion will not stop. And, maybe the u/s may change some women's minds, and maybe it won't. I don't know WHAT to say as far as making it a law. I think all of this discussion stems from all the problems people put on themselves. Its sickening.
No contraceptive is 100 percent. Sure being irresponsible is the cause for some unwanted pregnancies, but not all. I don't agree with your choice of wording, but I do agree this all goes back to comprehensive sex education. Teach kids how to prevent pregnancy before they start having sex and the number of abortions will likely decrease.
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  #7  
May 20th, 2009, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSwishing4number5someday View Post
But the problem lies within the ability to have some self-control. ... I think all of this discussion stems from all the problems people put on themselves. Its sickening.
Maybe we should outlaw sex unless a couple promises to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term. Ya, that would be practical!

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Originally Posted by Daddyx2 View Post
Like Melkissa said, it serves no other purpose than to attempt to guilt the woman out of having the abortion.
And you point is?? Guilt is a GREAT motivator!
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  #8  
May 20th, 2009, 05:41 PM
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Here that is required. Not so much to guilt the woman, but abortions are not allowed if the fetus measures over 12 weeks 1 day, so they have to be done to check the dates.

My ultrasounds made my decision for me. We were 100% positive on my dates, the measurements were off, I was bleeding a little bit. Bloodwork can only show you so much, but when you see two babies not developing properly it helps make up your mind.

I have several friends who changed their minds on their abortions after they saw the baby on the screen and have never regretted changing their minds for a second.
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  #9  
May 21st, 2009, 03:15 PM
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I do not agree with mandatory laws. If the woman wishes to have one, then I agree that she should be allowed, but I think having it mandatory goes too far.
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  #11  
May 21st, 2009, 07:42 PM
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I am pro-choice and I also think women should be given informed consent before any medical procedure. I don't think they should require an ultrasound for an abortion any more than they should require an ultrasound before removing a spleen.
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  #12  
May 21st, 2009, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria View Post
There's nothing wrong with this. If a woman genuinely wants an abortion, seeing an ultrasound won't deter her. If it does, did she REALLY want the abortion in the first place or was it a knee-jerk reaction to finding herself with an unplanned pregnancy?

I had an old friend who had an abortion. She said the baby can't feel anything. I told her yes it CAN, ad she said if it can feel, no one, including herself, would abort because that would be a cruel way to kill something. So she aborted a baby thinking it didn't feel anything while admitting she wouldn't have if it could feel.

It doesn't do any good to keep the facts from a woman. Keeping her ignorant as to the stage of development and what the baby can feel is preventing her from making an informed decision. Plenty of women out there would have no problem aborting a baby the day before it's due if for some reason access to abortion wasn't available sooner.

Also a doctor and a counselor are GOOD ideas. Many women are unprepared for what they feel afterward, having no idea that mourning is normal, and then think there's something wring with them for feeling sad. Many women get abortions because they're being threatened that if they don't, they'll be hurt. A counselor can make sure a woman really wants to do it, that she doesn't feel threatened or coerced.

Funny how proponents of easy-access abortions think women should not be educated about what's happening in their bodies and what to expect before being allowed to sign the papers. Afraid that a woman might change her mind once she is informed...?
If she was far enough along for the fetus to feel pain, then that's different and most states don't allow abortion at that point anyways. But a fetus at 8 weeks can NOT feel pain and there is no other reason than to inflict shame or guilt to show them an ultrasound.
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  #13  
May 21st, 2009, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by melkissa2004 View Post
If she was far enough along for the fetus to feel pain, then that's different and most states don't allow abortion at that point anyways. But a fetus at 8 weeks can NOT feel pain and there is no other reason than to inflict shame or guilt to show them an ultrasound.
well put!

specific parts of the brain have to function for pain to be felt. There are adults out there with with brain injuries who do not feel pain because areas of their brain doesn't work. However, our brain stem gives us reflect (it's brain stem right? someone correct me if I'm wrong) and that's one of the first parts of the brain to form. A fetus can reflexively move away from something invaiding its space (abortion tools, ultrasound wands), but until those brain parts are formed and functioning pain isn't felt.
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  #15  
May 22nd, 2009, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Aria View Post
At eight weeks, nerve receptors are in place and working. What's the harm in giving the baby a euthanizing shot? It's cheap and will ensure that death isn't painful. It's evil and sick to say a baby's pain doesn't matter because it's not born. People who don't care aren't going to feel guilty because they're too selfish and only want what they want, regardless of who feels the pain.
Do you even read what people write?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria View Post
Adults without the ability to feel pain are in the tiny tiny tiny minority. When they have surgery, you bet they're still getting anesthesia to be on the safe side. What's the chance of a baby at eight weeks having a brain injury?
What are the odds that an 8 week old fetus has enough brain function to feel pain?
"At the end of the 20th century there was an emerging consensus among developmental neurobiologists that the establishment of thalamocortical connections (at about 26 weeks) is a critical event with regard to fetal perception of pain. Other researchers such as Anand and Fisk have challenged this late date, positing that pain can be felt around 20 weeks"


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria View Post
That's a website that does NOT go over the ethics of abortion, and actually seems to have a slightly more pro-choice stance. Yet it still cites medical verification that unborn babies at eight weeks have physical reactions to pain. Do you really expect me to believe that a heart rate drastically increasing in response to things that would hurt us means nothing, that the baby isn't feeling?
No, it is a physical reaction to stimuli. It is as erroneous as saying the baby has to think about making its heart beat. We have a whole reflexive and autonomous nervous system that requires no thoughts and need not feel any pain to react to stimuli.

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Originally Posted by Aria View Post
Watch this video. YouTube - ABORTION: The Silent Scream Part 1 2 3 4 5 COMPLETE VERSION Pro-life Anti-Abortion Video There is an ultrasound of a abortion happening. WATCH THE BABY'S RESPONSE. We may not be able to hear it, but that's a wide-mouthed scream.
Just so we understand your position... you are opposing circumcision because of the pain issue? So you would have no problem with killing an embryo before a brain develops?


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Originally Posted by Aria View Post
WHY SHOULD THE BABY NOT BE SPARED THIS PAIN? Give it a ****** cheap shot so it doesn't suffer!!! Being in denial doesn't make the pain not exist!
I don't think anyone here actually opposes giving a fetus a shot prior to an abortion... assuming it is necessary.

Last edited by smt; May 22nd, 2009 at 11:46 AM.
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  #16  
May 22nd, 2009, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria View Post
At eight weeks, nerve receptors are in place and working. What's the harm in giving the baby a euthanizing shot? It's cheap and will ensure that death isn't painful. It's evil and sick to say a baby's pain doesn't matter because it's not born. People who don't care aren't going to feel guilty because they're too selfish and only want what they want, regardless of who feels the pain.

Adults without the ability to feel pain are in the tiny tiny tiny minority. When they have surgery, you bet they're still getting anesthesia to be on the safe side. What's the chance of a baby at eight weeks having a brain injury?

Why Can't We Love Them Both? On Line Book by Dr. and Mrs. Willke.

That's a website that does NOT go over the ethics of abortion, and actually seems to have a slightly more pro-choice stance. Yet it still cites medical verification that unborn babies at eight weeks have physical reactions to pain. Do you really expect me to believe that a heart rate drastically increasing in response to things that would hurt us means nothing, that the baby isn't feeling?

Watch this video. YouTube - ABORTION: The Silent Scream Part 1 2 3 4 5 COMPLETE VERSION Pro-life Anti-Abortion Video There is an ultrasound of a abortion happening. WATCH THE BABY'S RESPONSE. We may not be able to hear it, but that's a wide-mouthed scream.

WHY SHOULD THE BABY NOT BE SPARED THIS PAIN? Give it a ****** cheap shot so it doesn't suffer!!! Being in denial doesn't make the pain not exist!!
Honestly, the links you have posted here and elsewhere on this debate board, are nothing but extremist pro-life proproganda. If you wish anyone here to take you seriously, I highly suggest that you avoid any pro-life website as oftentimes they are blatantly lies, misrepresented and distorted facts (partial birth abortion comes to mind as one such issue they have completely distorted and twisted to fit their own irrational emotions agenda) and other such biased actions; and instead perhaps focus on real, peer-reviewed scientific studies. They are out there; though the databases may be pay-for-use for anyone who is not a professional or a college student - but believe me, everything you have stated here... just wow.

Though it is controversial when exactly (meaning the exact week) a fetus will actually feel pain, it is generally and WIDELY accepted by scientists that a fetus will NOT feel any sort of pain until the late 2nd trimester and into the third trimester. Before then, the nerves are not connected, and the brain is still not fully formed, making it impossible for a fetus to feel any sort of pain as the nerve receptors are not connected. It is a MYTH fostered by extremist pro-lifers that a fetus will feel pain at 8 weeks and it is absolutely absurd to discount the scientific reality. Pain medication is therefore irrelevant, and besides the fact that the overwhelming majority of abortions occur in the first 8 weeks. Hardly a time that pain medication would even be needed.

Really, research the issue in depth and with non-biased REAL PROFESSIONAL SOURCES if you want anyone to take you or your arguments seriously... well, at least me anyway. I won't take any of those websites or a youtube video as a serious valid addition to a debate when they are quite simply emotional irrational proproganda and having absolutely no valid point besides stirring up emotions. Quoting from any website that is not professionally based or has direct links to the actual study or research source is something that every one of my college teachers has warned me against while writing research papers (and I have written quite a few, so I have become quite well versed in professional reputable sources to be used and which websites are to be laughed at and ignored) because quite frankly, google and wikipedia does not make anyone a research scholar.

Ahem, sorry for the little rant. Just a personal pet peeve of mine... carry on.
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  #17  
May 24th, 2009, 11:59 AM
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Some babies survive at as few as 20 weeks I think now. (Preemies). I am quite sure they can feel pain. But then I can remeber when they said no newborn could feel pain, so the didnt need anesthetics etc...
I believe a woman should have the procedure explained to her, both as it affects herself and the child before making a decision.
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  #18  
May 24th, 2009, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broxi3781 View Post
Some babies survive at as few as 20 weeks I think now. (Preemies). I am quite sure they can feel pain. But then I can remeber when they said no newborn could feel pain, so the didnt need anesthetics etc...
I believe a woman should have the procedure explained to her, both as it affects herself and the child before making a decision.
ITA- but IMO, this doesn't mean she needs to be shown an ultrasound to know how the procedure works.
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  #19  
May 25th, 2009, 07:12 AM
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I see no reason not to show an ultrasound, believe me I have seen enough of them, you cant see much early on, maybe a tiny heart beating. If its later, why shouldnt the mother know the truth, that is moving about and living?
The fact that they can hear and respond to sound in the second trimester is no longer disputed. If they can be afraid of sound why not pain?
Also I had an amnio at 19 or 20 weeks. I watched the whole thing on ultrasound, the needle got near his hand, I still say they pricked him but the dr says no, anyway you should have seen his reaction my whole stomache jumped and you could see him violently trying to get away from the needle after, the dr.s were all laughing about it. I really regretted it afterwards, but I was so terrified after what the midwife had told me ( mistakenly she hadnt adjusted numbers for his twin) I was bleeding and cramping anyway, and think I would have lost him just through stress over the next 4 months if we hadnt had the reassurance he was perfectly fine. So sorry but I am no more inclined to believe they dont feel pain at that age, then the old story of boys not feeling circumsison etc...
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  #20  
May 25th, 2009, 07:19 AM
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BTW - if the tests had come back differently, and the child had absolutely no chance of survival, according to the law here, I would still be meant to carry another 4 months give birth and watch him die. Abortion just because the baby has no chance of life is not legal, but many doctors get around this by saying the mothers mental health will be severely affected by the experience. The other option being travel to Scotland. I still am not sure what I would have done, I know I would never have had an abortion without pain relief for the child as well, I would not have let him suffer that.
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