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Definition of a baby?


Abortion Debate

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  #21  
May 29th, 2009, 03:49 AM
GinaB's Avatar Ex-Navy Lifetime NRA!
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I am simple, if there is a heartbeat then there is a baby and he/she should not be snuffed out due to selfish reasons (not including rape or endangerment of life of mother)
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  #22  
May 29th, 2009, 06:25 AM
Tammyjh's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Originally Posted by smt View Post
"Murder" is a legal term so that is easy. The How do you come to this determination? What criteria do you use to define a "baby" in this way. How many babies is it? How do you differentiate a fertilized egg/human baby from that of a fertilized egg/mouse baby? What exactly is it that makes one a human and not the other? Is it a unique mix of DNA? Is it something about how it looks? Is it where it is located?
Is it an abortion debate or "when do you think life really begins" debate. Also, I've never called anyone a "murderer".
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  #23  
May 29th, 2009, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by fergyferg View Post
There are different definitions of "baby". Some use the term baby as a term of endearment. For example, I call my oldest child a "baby" when clearly he is not. My husband calls me "baby" and vice versa when in reality, we are far from it (at least I am, lol). When I was pregnant with my oldest I referred to him as a baby when I knew he wasn't yet. It's all about how it's used in context. Medically, all definitions above are wrong but that can't stop me from using them.
But the magical medical terms were coined by who? Human beings who decided "this is what we'll call this stage of development". They can tell us scientifically what is going on but for many, the exact time of when to say life has begun and when they think that life is a baby, is perpsective, not science.
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Last edited by Tammyjh; May 29th, 2009 at 07:28 AM.
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  #24  
May 29th, 2009, 06:47 AM
smt smt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovadue View Post
I am simple
Perhaps overly simplistic with a complex issue?

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Originally Posted by Ovadue View Post
if there is a heartbeat then there is a baby
Are all things with heartbeats babies?

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Originally Posted by Ovadue View Post
and he/she should not be snuffed out
How do you know if it is a he or a she at this point?

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Originally Posted by Ovadue View Post
due to selfish reasons
Who is to say it is for selfish reasons?

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Originally Posted by Ovadue View Post
(not including rape or endangerment of life of mother)
So, you believe it is ok to kill a baby if it is the result of a rape?
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  #25  
May 29th, 2009, 07:21 AM
GinaB's Avatar Ex-Navy Lifetime NRA!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smt View Post

Are all things with heartbeats babies? everything I know starts out as a baby then grows up to adult


How do you know if it is a he or a she at this point? Isn't the sex determined at the moment of conception, thus defining this as more than just a clump of cells?


Who is to say it is for selfish reasons? I, personally, think it is selfish to rid yourself of a child that was created in an act that is known to cause such a product, a child......regardless of how much protection you use. I was selfish once in regards to this topic Nothing is certain but death and taxes


So, you believe it is ok to kill a baby if it is the result of a rape? I don't think it is okay but I do then consider the woman's mental health after the rape
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  #27  
May 29th, 2009, 08:51 AM
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No one is going to like my answer.... and I have defended it 1,000 times on here... but I do have a question..... does no one else find it offensive that many of you are comparing a human life growing inside a human with a beating heart a determined sex, human characteristics, you and your partners DNA to an *animal* I find it so offensive that any one would put the life of an animal in utero or outside of utero on the same level as the life of a human...
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  #28  
May 29th, 2009, 10:18 AM
Tammyjh's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Originally Posted by fergyferg View Post
But perspective does not make it right. Is my husband a baby? My perspective is that he is one from time to time. I'm not going to force what I believe to be a baby on anyone but I also expect the same from the other side.
But how would your husband figure in to the abortion debate...you are not trying to terminate him are you?....I hope not (And I hope you know that I am only joking here)

But again, even in the early weeks, when a woman miscarries, she does not say "I lost the fetus or the non person"....she will say "I lost the baby". So, my point is that in real life just about everyone refers to whats taken up residence in their uterus as a baby but when they try to make abortion sound less personal, they use the terms "fetus" and "non person". Why is it that the only time the "correct term" is important is in the abortion debate?
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Last edited by Tammyjh; May 29th, 2009 at 10:41 AM.
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  #31  
May 29th, 2009, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by fergyferg View Post
In an abortion debate, medical terms are more appropriate since abortion is a medical procedure.

To reiterate, in an abortion debate, since abortion is a medical procedure, it is correct to use the medical terms.
I can agree with this. I have had 17 losses between my son (9 yrs old) and my daughter (6 months old). I am listed in my medical files as a "habitual aborter".......nice eh?
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  #33  
May 29th, 2009, 11:15 AM
GinaB's Avatar Ex-Navy Lifetime NRA!
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Originally Posted by fergyferg View Post
Good ole medical terms. I would never tell you that you didn't suffer a loss. Personal meanings of words hold a lot more water, to me, than medical terms. I'm very sorry for your losses.
Thank you. My Victoria is very much a million dollar miracle
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  #34  
May 29th, 2009, 12:38 PM
Tammyjh's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Originally Posted by fergyferg View Post
I won't say if my thoughts are to terminate him from time to time. Just kidding!

In an abortion debate, medical terms are more appropriate since abortion is a medical procedure. I would never tell a woman who miscarried that she didn't lose a baby but in medical terms, she lost a potential baby (depending on the number of weeks, etc). Just as a woman who is grieving a young child over the age of one that has died. Even though she didn't technically lose her "baby", I am not going to tell her that. If she decides to say "I lost my baby", that's up to her. Who's going to say "Well, technically, you lost a toddler or a preschooler."

To reiterate, in an abortion debate, since abortion is a medical procedure, it is correct to use the medical terms.
Yes, thats your opinion. Giving birth is sometimes a medical procedure as well but people don't use medical terms when sharing their birth story....you know, "the moment my fetus turned into a baby..."
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  #35  
May 29th, 2009, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CartersMommy View Post
No one is going to like my answer.... and I have defended it 1,000 times on here... but I do have a question..... does no one else find it offensive that many of you are comparing a human life growing inside a human with a beating heart a determined sex, human characteristics, you and your partners DNA to an *animal* I find it so offensive that any one would put the life of an animal in utero or outside of utero on the same level as the life of a human...
Why is that offensive? Mammals are mammals. I don't eat meat for the same reason I don't eat babies. But I also respect others decision to eat meat. I would frown upon eating babies though, so maybe that's not a good comparison.
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  #36  
May 29th, 2009, 02:11 PM
smt smt is offline
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Originally Posted by Ovadue View Post
Are all things with heartbeats babies? everything I know starts out as a baby then grows up to adult
All fertilized eggs start as as unfertilized eggs. Does that make unfertilized eggs as valued as fertilized eggs? All mammals that start out as fertilized eggs may grow up to be adults. So, what is it about having a heartbeat that makes it so much more valuable? These are just arbitrary points in the development of a baby.

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Originally Posted by Ovadue View Post
How do you know if it is a he or a she at this point? Isn't the sex determined at the moment of conception, thus defining this as more than just a clump of cells?
It is only determined by a set of plans that exist in the DNA. You wouldn't say the fertilized egg has a big nose just because it genetically has a big nose in the plans. In the same sense, it isn't a male of a female at conception because there are no male or female attributes.

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Originally Posted by Ovadue View Post
Who is to say it is for selfish reasons? I, personally, think it is selfish to rid yourself of a child that was created in an act that is known to cause such a product, a child......regardless of how much protection you use. I was selfish once in regards to this topic Nothing is certain but death and taxes
What if you abort it the same day as conception. Can you really say you are killing a child when what is being killed has no attributes that would identify it as a child?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovadue View Post
So, you believe it is ok to kill a baby if it is the result of a rape? I don't think it is okay but I do then consider the woman's mental health after the rape
If you consider the rape victim's mental health and conclude that she can justify aborting the baby then why only make that consideration if she was raped? Why not consider her mental health for other reasons?
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  #37  
May 29th, 2009, 02:23 PM
smt smt is offline
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Originally Posted by CartersMommy View Post
No one is going to like my answer.... and I have defended it 1,000 times on here... but I do have a question..... does no one else find it offensive that many of you are comparing a human life growing inside a human with a beating heart a determined sex, human characteristics, you and your partners DNA to an *animal* I find it so offensive that any one would put the life of an animal in utero or outside of utero on the same level as the life of a human...
We are all mammals. I'm sorry if that offends you but it is just a fact. Of course, we are mammals with great brains so we can think about these things where other animals cannot.

What I am trying to do is to get people to define the attributes of a human baby and have something that differentiates it from other mammals. The fact that someone might call a fertilized egg a "baby" does not mean it has the attributes of a human baby. At some point I think we all agree that a baby does indeed exist, and most of us would agree that that time is sometime before birth. But I think it is safe to say that a fertilized egg is not a "baby" because it cannot be identified as anything "human" since it does not have what we would consider to be human attributes. It is a potential human, it has DNA instructions to create a human, but a human cannot be accurately defined as a single celled organism.

ETA: I don't think anyone is saying you can't experience a loss at any point in a pregnancy. Even if you are trying to get pregnant, just having your next period could be considered a loss. The loss is that of the potential baby you hoped for. I also don't see a problem with someone placing great value on her own fertilized egg. At that point it is like any other property and we are free to place whatever value we want on our property.

Last edited by smt; May 29th, 2009 at 02:28 PM.
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  #39  
June 1st, 2009, 04:35 AM
Tammyjh's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Originally Posted by fergyferg View Post
How dare you not be on my side about this! Have you not taken the Libertarian oath yet? Oops, I'm giving out our secrets.

When someone shares their birth story, it's usually an endearing moment for them so why would they use medical terms? If we are debating birth it would be best to use terms like vaginal birth instead of "when the baby popped out of my who-ha" or c-section instead of "having the baby ripped from my belly". Of course people may use whatever terms they want, no one can stop them. It's just proper etiquette, IMO.
To the bolded

I guess what I'm saying is that when abortion is debated, it cannot only be debated from a medical term standpoint alone because for some people, the topic is a personal one. If they believe that the "fetus" is a person(at whatever stage), then its "personal". And I do beleive that when these debates come up, one argument from one side is that its a "personal" decision between a woman and her dr.
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Last edited by Tammyjh; June 1st, 2009 at 04:50 AM.
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  #40  
June 1st, 2009, 04:38 AM
GinaB's Avatar Ex-Navy Lifetime NRA!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smt View Post

It is only determined by a set of plans that exist in the DNA. You wouldn't say the fertilized egg has a big nose just because it genetically has a big nose in the plans. In the same sense, it isn't a male of a female at conception because there are no male or female attributes.
If given the chance to live, those attributes will grow that were decided at conception.
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