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Definition of a baby?


Abortion Debate

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  #41  
June 1st, 2009, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Ovadue View Post
If given the chance to live, those attributes will grow that were decided at conception.
I don't think I ever said otherwise, although, that is not a guarantee that it will become a person. There are many factors that can affect the outcome other than a sperm and egg coming together. In the same sense, a bunch of metal and plastic can become a car according to a set of plans. That does not mean the raw metal and plastic, along with a set of plans, are a car.
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  #43  
June 1st, 2009, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddyx2 View Post
The law has to be free of personal feelings. Medically, is it a human being with all the attributes and rights that go along with being a human? If it is not, abortion should be legal. Religion or personal beliefs should not factor into the legality.

As far as the decision being personal, I agree. It should be up to each individual woman what she chooses to do, not for others to dictate.
I think there must be a few different debates going on here because I'm not talking about the law, I'm talking about personal perspectives and have been the entire time. There also seems to be a debate going on about what happens when the sperm and egg meet. I guess I'm unclear as to exactly what everyone is discussing. As far as the law goes, I'm not disputing whats "on the books" but in my personal life, I have always referred to what was in my belly, from the time I got my positive result, as a baby. And when I had my mc in the early weeks, I said "I lost the baby". So, thats the "word" I use....whether its to debate abortion(which I rarely do) or just to talk about my prior pgs. or someone elses.
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  #44  
June 4th, 2009, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammyjh View Post
I'm talking about personal perspectives and have been the entire time.
Right, but those personal perspectives are, as I said in another thread, projection. When we are carrying a wanted pregnancy, and we say "I felt the baby move" that's an act of emotional projection. We view the fetus in the easiest most accessible way we can, because we see babies but we do not see fetuses. I hope I'm making sense. It's one of those concepts that's hard to articulate.

Anyway, those projections have no bearing on actual fact. Thinking the fetus is in there waving "hi" to me during ultrasound does not make it so. Most likely, it was a reflex. I like to think that my cat licks me because he loves me. But in reality not so, he licks me because he likes tasting the salt on my skin. My perspective does not change the actual fact that his brain is not developed enough to grasp the concept of love.

Calling a fetus a baby works in the same way.
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Last edited by MissTorrieIfYou'reNasty; June 4th, 2009 at 05:40 PM.
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  #45  
June 9th, 2009, 06:40 PM
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Whether you choose to believe that it is or is not a baby. ( which it is) You know that it will be a baby at some point. There have been very premature BABIES that survive. It is wrong to KILL an unborn baby/ fetus whatever name you want to give the growing child. YOU know they will (unless a miscarraige were to happen) be a baby and it is wrong to kill them. I have 2 precious children as you can see and it sickens me that people can kill the unborn. They never asked to be put into your womb. They are the most vulnerable because of people who are prochoice. Late term abortions, you must know is also very wrong. You know for sure that usually that child will survive if born at that time. Lord have mercy on Judgement day! I will even admit that when I was pregnant with my youngest, I was so sick for 4 months straight vomiting many times a day and always very nauseaus and lost alot of weight, I did think of an abortion as an easy way out and I have long since felt terrible that I thought that and I asked for forgiveness from my saviour because it is never right to take a life and it is a life. I love my kids dearly.
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Last edited by mommy10_13; June 11th, 2009 at 08:22 AM.
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  #46  
June 9th, 2009, 09:06 PM
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Nevermind.
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  #47  
June 10th, 2009, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommy10_13 View Post
Whether you choose to believe that it is or is not a baby. ( which it is)
This is a debate board, so you will have to defend that claim if you want to be taken seriously. As I asked on another thread... please give your definition of a baby and list the attributes of that baby that define it as being uniquely human.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mommy10_13 View Post
You know that it will at least be a baby at some point.
No, you don't know that. The majority of fertilized eggs spontaneously abort and never become a baby. Even then, just because it has the potential to be a baby does not mean that it is what we would define as a baby, along every step of the way, from the point of fertilization.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mommy10_13 View Post
There have been very premature BABIES that survive. It is wrong to KILL an unborn baby/ fetus whatever name you want to give the growing child. YOU know they will (unless a miscarraige were to happen) be a baby and it is wrong to kill them.
Great. Now you are making a moral claim. Please make a moral argument that at no point in a pregnancy it should be aborted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mommy10_13 View Post
I have 2 precious children as you can see and it sickens me that people can kill the unborn. They never asked to be put into your womb.
Since no one put the baby in there, an argument can be made that it trespassing on the woman's body.

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Originally Posted by mommy10_13 View Post
Late term abortions, you must know is also very wrong. You know for sure that usually that child will survive if born at that time.
I oppose late-term abortions except under extreme medical circumstances.

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Originally Posted by mommy10_13 View Post
Lord have mercy on Judgement day!
There will never be a judgment day. If you would like to discuss this then feel free to repost it on the Religion Debate board.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mommy10_13 View Post
I will even admit that when I was pregnant with my youngest, I was so sick for 4 months straight vomiting many times a day and always very nauseaus and lost alot of weight, I did think of an abortion as an easy way out and I have long since felt terrible that I thought that and I asked for forgiveness from my saviour because it is never right to take a life and it is a life. I love my kids dearly.
I think you should lighten up on yourself a bit. There is no reason to condemn yourself for wanting to stop a difficult situation. BTW, it is sometimes necessary to take a life, whether it be a fetus or an adult. It is just part of reality when you try to minimize harms in the world, but I'm not sure you can understand that because you seem to have a very simplistic view of a world that is rather complex.
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  #49  
June 11th, 2009, 06:12 AM
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See why I said nevermind? LOL
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  #50  
June 11th, 2009, 08:46 AM
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I did fix my comment. I removed the at least part.. don't know why I put that..lol. From a quote;
"So you believe that the pro-choice are doing this for the right reasons if you want your Lord to have "mercy" on them. Why the big whoo-la?" It is just a saying "Lord have mercy" I am saying that it will all come back on you on judgement day.. that is all. When I said that alot of premature babies survive.. I was saying that partial birth abortion is disgusting and wrong. A lot of those babies or all of them would survive if born at that time instead of murdered.

This quote is stupid.. "Since no one put the baby in there, an argument can be made that it trespassing on the woman's body."

You made the choice to have sex with the knowledge of pregnancy as a probability. It is because of your sexual act, that the child was put into your womb. We are parents when we are pregnant and we are supposed to love our children and protect them, not go around killing them because you don't want the responsibilty of taking care of them. This is not for all pregnancies, but I mean the ones that are because of permissive sex. I do believe all babies should be given the chance to develop and be birthed and adoption is always an option. If people would go by the Bible and live properly and wait until they are married to have sex there would be a lot less unwanted pregnancies in this world. I will attach a pic of my sons 20 week 3D ultrasound as he was smiling and it is magnificent to see how miraculous it really is.. the whole process of human development. I am pro life and everyone should be for life. I am not on a high horse, I am stating my opinion. I am totally against abortion in any situation as we should not have any right to decide which baby is or isn't allowed to live during pregnancy. We all know that an unborn baby / fetus has the potential to be a human child if you don't think they already are and that in itself makes it very wrong.

Just a thought after uploading my sons ultrasound pic.. it is amazing how he looks the same now pretty much.. too cute!
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Last edited by mommy10_13; June 11th, 2009 at 08:54 AM.
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  #51  
June 11th, 2009, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommy10_13 View Post
This quote is stupid.. "Since no one put the baby in there, an argument can be made that it trespassing on the woman's body."

You made the choice to have sex with the knowledge of pregnancy as a probability. It is because of your sexual act, that the child was put into your womb.
I child was not "put into the womb". Only sperm were put into the womb. The sperm and the egg colluded to take over a portion of the woman's body without her consent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mommy10_13 View Post
We are parents when we are pregnant and we are supposed to love our children and protect them, not go around killing them because you don't want the responsibilty of taking care of them.
I agree, you are a parent when you have a child. The question is... when does a child exist? Can you define a human child for me please so we are talking about the same thing? Please list some attributes of a child which make it uniquely human.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mommy10_13 View Post
This is not for all pregnancies, but I mean the ones that are because of permissive sex. I do believe all babies should be given the chance to develop and be birthed and adoption is always an option.
I agree... we just have different definitions of what a "baby" is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mommy10_13 View Post
If people would go by the Bible and live properly and wait until they are married to have sex there would be a lot less unwanted pregnancies in this world.
Oh, please, we don't want people living by the Bible. We have advanced well beyond that. (Again, feel free to bring up this topic in the Religion Debate board)

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Originally Posted by mommy10_13 View Post
I am pro life and everyone should be for life.
Again, a moral claim. Why should everyone be for life? Can you make a moral argument that "life" is always better?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mommy10_13 View Post
I am not on a high horse, I am stating my opinion. I am totally against abortion in any situation as we should not have any right to decide which baby is or isn't allowed to live during pregnancy.
You are great at stating your opinions! Just not so good at defending them, IMO. Ignoring the issue of when a baby exists, why shouldn't we have any right to decide when a baby is or isn't allowed to live?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mommy10_13 View Post
We all know that an unborn baby / fetus has the potential to be a human child if you don't think they already are and that in itself makes it very wrong.
I don't think you have yet made a valid argument that a human child exists at all points in a pregnancy.
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  #53  
June 11th, 2009, 06:48 PM
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Want to join me in my corner of hell with all the other pro-choicers who probably had pre-marital sex?
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  #55  
June 11th, 2009, 07:52 PM
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We'll be there with the gays, it will be FABULOUS!
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  #56  
June 11th, 2009, 08:34 PM
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We'll be there with the gays, it will be FABULOUS!
I needed that. Thank you.
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  #57  
June 11th, 2009, 10:33 PM
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Is the point of this debate to say that because the baby human may have similar attributes as a baby of another species that it's ok to kill it? Do people really think that killing animals for reasons other than food is ok too? I think not, since there are laws in place that protect animals against animal cruelty. I think all life is sacred and should be respected whether the lump of cells turns out to be a human or a cow. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the debate, but the OP sounded like it was trying to make the connection that if the attributes were the same then it's ok to kill whatever that lump of cells is.

Also, I don't understand the viable arguement. There are many humans alive that couldn't survive without the assistance of other humans, or are born with diseases that will surely kill them. Where do you draw the line of when it's deemed ok to kill someone? It's ok to kill a baby in utero because it couldn't survive outside the womb anyways, but it's not ok to kill a handicapped person who couldn't survive without their source of life either? It's ok to kill a baby in utero because it will surely die anyways, but it's not ok to kill a person with the same death sentence once they're born? Sounds like fuzzy logic to me.
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Last edited by oicyur; June 11th, 2009 at 10:38 PM.
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  #58  
June 12th, 2009, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by oicyur View Post
Is the point of this debate to say that because the baby human may have similar attributes as a baby of another species that it's ok to kill it? Do people really think that killing animals for reasons other than food is ok too? I think not, since there are laws in place that protect animals against animal cruelty. I think all life is sacred and should be respected whether the lump of cells turns out to be a human or a cow. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the debate, but the OP sounded like it was trying to make the connection that if the attributes were the same then it's ok to kill whatever that lump of cells is.

Also, I don't understand the viable arguement. There are many humans alive that couldn't survive without the assistance of other humans, or are born with diseases that will surely kill them. Where do you draw the line of when it's deemed ok to kill someone? It's ok to kill a baby in utero because it couldn't survive outside the womb anyways, but it's not ok to kill a handicapped person who couldn't survive without their source of life either? It's ok to kill a baby in utero because it will surely die anyways, but it's not ok to kill a person with the same death sentence once they're born? Sounds like fuzzy logic to me.
A fetus is not legally considered a PERSON. Someone who has been BORN is. Which makes the argument irrelevant. And it is not fuzzy logic. Viability is something the scientific community has squabbled about for generations. Generally, 24-26 weeks (or 21 weeks in some circles, though no child born at 21 weeks has ever survived) is considered the point of viability. That means the child MIGHT survive outside of the womb depending on the strength of the medical care, appearances of micro-preemie problems that can be deadly, just plain luck, etc etc etc. I have a cousin who just turned 11 weeks old yesterday who was born at 24 weeks, 6 days. She was born weighing 14.8 oz and was 10 inches long. Think roughly the size of a small bottle of water, and that's how big she was. She now weighs 2 1/2 lbs. It is an absolute miracle that she survived as statistically, she very well could have died - and almost did several times. Babies are not meant to be born at that gestational age and they generally always will have problems the rest of their lives. Alivia is considered a person because she was born - and she survived the odds of a micropreemie and lived. The logic is fine because you are forgetting the fact that a fetus is not considered a living breathing born human being by law, therefore your arguments against killing a living breathing born human being who is handicapped are irrelevant. Apples and oranges. An 8 week old fetus could never be a person. Period. A 24 week fetus? 50/50 chance of surviving past birth, let alone past a few days after birth. As gestational age gets higher, the higher the chance for viability and surviving past birth. Medically and legally, a fetus is not an actual person. And it HAS to stay that way or it becomes far too much of a slippery slope.

And just because I want to bang my head against the wall again, for a previous poster who is oblivious to what reality is:

LATE TERM ABORTION IS OVERWHELMINGLY PERFORMED FOR EMERGENCY MEDICAL CIRCUMSTANCES ONLY. WHICH MEANS, THE MOTHER WILL DIE OR THE CHILD WILL DIE OR IS DEAD OR BOTH WILL DIE IF THE PREGNANCY CONTINUES. It's something like 0.01% of all late-term abortions that are not for medical reasons. And besides the fact, there isn't a clinic in the ENTIRE COUNTRY that will allow an abortion for any reason except medical past 26 weeks. Third trimester abortion is ONLY performed as a MEDICAL EMERGENCY. Partial birth abortion DOES NOT exist in the way pro-lifers think it does, and besides the fact that term isn't even a freaking medical term, it's a term thought up by extremists to describe a particular abortion procedure and now it's spiralled into this huge evil thing even though the majority percentage of women who HAVE to get these procedures are doing so because they are dying, or their child has died or absolutely will die and they have to make the excrutiating choice to have a medically necessary abortion. Good grief, I really can't stand it when people don't know what they're talking about and refuse to educate themselves on reality.
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  #59  
June 12th, 2009, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by irishxrose View Post

LATE TERM ABORTION IS OVERWHELMINGLY PERFORMED FOR EMERGENCY MEDICAL CIRCUMSTANCES ONLY. WHICH MEANS, THE MOTHER WILL DIE OR THE CHILD WILL DIE OR IS DEAD OR BOTH WILL DIE IF THE PREGNANCY CONTINUES. It's something like 0.01% of all late-term abortions that are not for medical reasons. And besides the fact, there isn't a clinic in the ENTIRE COUNTRY that will allow an abortion for any reason except medical past 26 weeks. Third trimester abortion is ONLY performed as a MEDICAL EMERGENCY. Partial birth abortion DOES NOT exist in the way pro-lifers think it does, and besides the fact that term isn't even a freaking medical term, it's a term thought up by extremists to describe a particular abortion procedure and now it's spiralled into this huge evil thing even though the majority percentage of women who HAVE to get these procedures are doing so because they are dying, or their child has died or absolutely will die and they have to make the excrutiating choice to have a medically necessary abortion. Good grief, I really can't stand it when people don't know what they're talking about and refuse to educate themselves on reality.

Just one question -
How would a late term abortion save the mother? How would an emergency c-section not also save the mother? People keep talking about late term abortions and say how it can be necessary for the mother's health and I just don't understand how an abortion is any safer than a induction or a c-section. Please enlighten me. I'd love an example of how a late term abortion will save mother but she would die if the baby was delivered without being killed first.
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  #60  
June 12th, 2009, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by oicyur View Post
Is the point of this debate to say that because the baby human may have similar attributes as a baby of another species that it's ok to kill it?
No, the point is to define a human in a meaningful way so we can discuss what is or is not happening to a person. A fertilized egg has no attributes of a human being except for a unique combination of human DNA. This fact alone does not give it inherent rights that we would likely apply to something that is clearly defined as a human being, like a newborn baby, or an 8 month old fetus (just to give two examples).

Quote:
Originally Posted by oicyur View Post
Do people really think that killing animals for reasons other than food is ok too? I think not, since there are laws in place that protect animals against animal cruelty.
Yes, of course. Anyone can take their animal to a vet and have it euthanized. That is not to say that you should torture the animal in the process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oicyur View Post
I think all life is sacred and should be respected whether the lump of cells turns out to be a human or a cow.
Did you know that when you sneeze you kill millions of cells that were alive? When you walk down the sidewalk or across a lawn you are probably killing dozens of things that are alive. Do you like it when someone brings you flowers? They were alive and are now dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oicyur View Post
Also, I don't understand the viable arguement. There are many humans alive that couldn't survive without the assistance of other humans, or are born with diseases that will surely kill them. Where do you draw the line of when it's deemed ok to kill someone?
The courts currently draw the line at "viability". Why? Because that is a defining point where some critical things happen. The fetus has sufficiently developed such that it could survive without the mother.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oicyur View Post
It's ok to kill a baby in utero because it couldn't survive outside the womb anyways, but it's not ok to kill a handicapped person who couldn't survive without their source of life either? It's ok to kill a baby in utero because it will surely die anyways, but it's not ok to kill a person with the same death sentence once they're born? Sounds like fuzzy logic to me.
A handicapped PERSON has already been granted the rights that we give to people. A fetus has not necessarily gained those rights. The logic is not fuzzy at all, although the line where we assign rights to a "person" is.
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