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Mother verses unborn ~ who has rights?


Abortion Debate

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  #1  
October 19th, 2009, 06:40 PM
(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.)
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I'm curious which side do you lean more on?

ETA: The poll didn't work!

I'm wondering if you think a mother loses all rights when she gets pregnant, therefore no right to do anything with her body that might be a threat to a baby like drinking and smoking but especially not an abortion?

or

If you feel a mother can make the decision to eat tuna, have a drink, and especially have the right to decide an abortion?

I'm sure there is lots in the middle but let's talk about it ~ Cheers!

Last edited by (.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.); October 19th, 2009 at 06:46 PM.
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  #2  
October 19th, 2009, 07:36 PM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.) View Post
I'm curious which side do you lean more on?

ETA: The poll didn't work!

I'm wondering if you think a mother loses all rights when she gets pregnant, therefore no right to do anything with her body that might be a threat to a baby like drinking and smoking but especially not an abortion?

or

If you feel a mother can make the decision to eat tuna, have a drink, and especially have the right to decide an abortion?

I'm sure there is lots in the middle but let's talk about it ~ Cheers!

Neither. Were there other options? I am 100% against abortion from the moment of conception. But I do think a mother can make the decision to eat tuna, or have a drink. This is because I believe all people have the right to life but I don't believe the government has the right to control everything a mother does. Just as a mother doesn't have the right kill her toddler because that toddler has the right to life but that doesn't mean that toddler has the right to be raised by the best parents. I don't think that toddler should be given soda pop, be plopped down in front of the TV all day etc etc but that is certainly not the same thing as being denied the right to life.
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  #3  
October 19th, 2009, 09:35 PM
AmandaR
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I think the decision to eat tuna or have a little caffiene during pregnancy is up to the mother.

I don't think ending the baby's life should be up to the mother.

So like the PP, I'm in between.
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  #4  
October 19th, 2009, 10:47 PM
(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.)
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LOL! Did you miss this part:

Quote:
Originally Posted by (.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.) View Post
I'm sure there is lots in the middle but let's talk about it ~ Cheers!
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  #5  
October 20th, 2009, 09:54 PM
irishxrose
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The mother has all rights.

I won't tolerate the government or anyone else telling me to take birth control, I certainly won't tolerate them telling me how many children I can or won't have. My body = my rights come first. I am living, breathing, BORN. The fetus is not. My life, and my rights, come first. Period. Does that mean I'm going to go do whatever the hell I want the next time I get pregnant? That'd be a big fat no. But that's MY choice, MY decision to do so - I am not being forced. So while I personally would not do anything harmful (as much as I can avoid) while pregnant, I cannot restrict what others do - because that harms my rights to my body and my reproductive freedom just as much as it harms theirs.

Last edited by irishxrose; October 20th, 2009 at 10:02 PM.
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  #6  
October 21st, 2009, 07:20 AM
aussiemummy
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I'm for the babys rights. The moment you get pregnant, the baby is relying on you to give them the best start in life. Should be law pregnant women can't drink, smoke etc etc.

So it's okay for the government to lock up murderers but not protect a fetus? It's okay for the government to step in some places but not others? I don't understand. Everyone should be about protecting the baby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by irishxrose View Post
The mother has all rights.

I won't tolerate the government or anyone else telling me to take birth control, I certainly won't tolerate them telling me how many children I can or won't have. My body = my rights come first. I am living, breathing, BORN. The fetus is not. My life, and my rights, come first. Period. Does that mean I'm going to go do whatever the hell I want the next time I get pregnant? That'd be a big fat no. But that's MY choice, MY decision to do so - I am not being forced. So while I personally would not do anything harmful (as much as I can avoid) while pregnant, I cannot restrict what others do - because that harms my rights to my body and my reproductive freedom just as much as it harms theirs.
What does it matter if you're born? Really there isn't much of a difference with the fetus. So he has taken his first breath yet...he has no rights. Bull****.
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  #7  
October 21st, 2009, 07:50 AM
irishxrose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiemummy View Post
I'm for the babys rights. The moment you get pregnant, the baby is relying on you to give them the best start in life. Should be law pregnant women can't drink, smoke etc etc.

So it's okay for the government to lock up murderers but not protect a fetus? It's okay for the government to step in some places but not others? I don't understand. Everyone should be about protecting the baby.

What does it matter if you're born? Really there isn't much of a difference with the fetus. So he has taken his first breath yet...he has no rights. Bull****.
While the fetus is in MY body, MY rights take precedent. If my health is at risk because of a fetus, I would have an abortion to save myself for my already LIVING BREATHING BORN child and to save MY life, since I am living, breathing, BORN. The fetus is not. There IS a difference between a fetus and a person who is already born.

I can just as easily call "bull----" on your first and second paragraph. The government does not consider a fetus a living person until it takes its first breath. The United States and its emphasis on rights and freedoms is why a woman's right to her own body trumps a potential human's - and yes, it is only a POTENTIAL human life until it survives being born. There is no guarantee that a fetus will survive pregnancy or birth. I find it disturbing that people would so willingly throw away the woman's life for a fetus that isn't even guaranteed to live - but the woman IS alive, IS breathing, IS here on this earth. She comes first, in my opinion, and the government's, AND in the eyes of science.
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  #8  
October 21st, 2009, 07:55 AM
aussiemummy
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All sounds very selfish.
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  #9  
October 21st, 2009, 10:14 AM
irishxrose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiemummy View Post
All sounds very selfish.
You know how Jess explained the circumcision comparison? How would you like the government to force you to circ your boys, or vaccinate your kids, or force you to take the chicken pox or swine flu vaccination for yourself, even if you don't want it? Or how would you like to live in El Salvador or Nicaragua, in which you would die because all abortions are illegal, including those to save the mother's life? Meaning that the government would force you to die for a fetus that is not even guaranteed to live (meaning if your fetus is killing you and it's dying - you both die for no reason except that the government has taken away your rights to continue living by putting the dying fetus' rights above yours). Or on the flip side, how would you feel if the government forced you to have abortions after having only one child, as China's one-child policy did? How would you feel if the government forcibly sterilized people, like they did during the eugenics movement, and anyone who was deemed "unfit" (meaning mentally ill, those who had given birth to anyone with a mental delay or defect like autism, minorities, basically anyone who was different was forcibly sterilized) was deprived of the very right to reproduce? How would you feel if the government forced you to take birth control? In all of these cases, the government is taking away YOUR rights, and forcing you to do something, violating your own autonomy to your body, or taking away your parental rights to not circ your child, or not vaccinate your kid.

And we have seen in countries where abortion is restricted, where a fetus is given primary rights as you are arguing, that abortions continue to occur in much the same rate that they do in countries that have less restrictive abortion laws. The difference? Abortions are overall safe where they are legal. Where they are illegal... they are dangerous, and often kill or maim women. In El Salvador, if the fetus is dying and killing you - you both die because the child was given the primary right to live, even though the child was going to die in the first place. That means that any children who are living and breathing and born that you have will be without a mother. Do those circumstances happen all the time? No, but because they still do, I have to support the woman's rights and place theirs above the fetus. If I didn't... I feel that I am condoning situations in which government can force keeping a child even if it kills us both, can force abortion, can force circumcision, can force vaccination - in essence force whatever they wish that violates my autonomy and your autonomy over our bodies. It may seem selfish, and maybe in some sense it is, but it is essential to have the mother's rights come first so we ALL keep our reproductive rights. For once you start to restrict those rights, as El Salvador and China have, you end up with serious problems, as those countries are dealing with. And I don't know about you, but I certainly don't want anyone forcing me to keep a child if it's going to kill us both and leave my born child motherless. I certainly don't want someone forcing me to circ or not circ, vaccinate or not vaccinate. I certainly don't want someone forcing me to take hormonal birth control. Those are MY decisions - no one else's. Now, do I agree that at some point the state has a legitimate interest to step in and restrict it a little? Yeah. Viability is important to consider. Third trimester abortions for seemingly no reason make me uncomfortable, but I also know that in the United States at least, third trimester abortions are restricted to medical reasons and emergencies only... and that sometimes what I deem unnecessary may indeed be necessary for others. I know that late trimester abortions for no reason happen about .0001% of the time, so it's not like that's a huge issue or happens all the time, especially since it is already so restricted. Late trimester abortions are a different debate though, and in that debate I can see a reasonable argument for having to balance both the mother's right and the fetus' right to live in a medical emergency or for other medical reasons (personally, if you can save both - save both. If you can't, mom should be able to choose for herself, and if she can't choose for incompetency reasons - save her unless she has legally stated otherwise in a will). But to completely give the fetus the right to live over the mother at any time, and she has no say whatsoever at any time during the entire pregnancy? I can't justify that based on what I explained above.

Does that explain my view point better? I felt after responding that I didn't explain it correctly and that it may be coming off wrong... I'm still getting that feeling. Sigh, I tried.

Last edited by irishxrose; October 21st, 2009 at 10:17 AM.
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  #10  
October 21st, 2009, 10:25 AM
aussiemummy
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I absolutely respect your opinion and I honestly do understand where you're coming from. I wouldn't want the government to tell me I HAD to circ. I wouldn't do it regardless of what they said.

I understand women getting abortions due to the fact they could die. I also said I would never have an abortion but I have two little kids to take care of and I couldn't leave them.

This just really hurts my heart. I don't mean to come across all angry and annoying repeating myself over and over but I don't know. I just feel really, really bad for the baby/fetus. But I understand your point.
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  #11  
October 21st, 2009, 10:26 AM
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  #12  
October 21st, 2009, 01:34 PM
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I support the rights of the mother's. With that said, I don't think pregnant women should be getting drunk, smoking or doing drugs but I also would never support limiting women's rights with such prejudicial legislation. It would subjugate women, again, to a status of second class citizenship. The only way it could be enforced would be to force women to submit to a pregnancy test when attempting to engage in any "unsafe" or "risky" choices, even if they are legal. I suppose it would have to include purchasing lunch meat, frozen yogurt, sushi, alcohol, tobacco, caffeine, etc. I suppose we would also have to apply these restrictions to services such as salon services (due to chemicals), pedicures, etc. We might as well revoke their driving privileges and place them under house arrest.
The fact of the matter is, there is a major distinction (IMO) between what choices and individual should make vs what choices one should be forced to make. For instance, if my child's life depended on my donating blood or even a kidney, I cannot be forced to submit to either procedure even if society's majority would consider it the correct choice to make.

You cannot grant multiple persons EQUAL rights over one body. At one point or another the rights of one are going to conflict with the rights of the other and, therefore, the conflicting rights must be prioritized. As it stands, the rights of the autonomous person take precedent over the rights of the dependent fetus.
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  #13  
October 21st, 2009, 06:05 PM
(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiemummy View Post
I absolutely respect your opinion and I honestly do understand where you're coming from. I wouldn't want the government to tell me I HAD to circ. I wouldn't do it regardless of what they said.

I understand women getting abortions due to the fact they could die. I also said I would never have an abortion but I have two little kids to take care of and I couldn't leave them.

This just really hurts my heart. I don't mean to come across all angry and annoying repeating myself over and over but I don't know. I just feel really, really bad for the baby/fetus. But I understand your point.
Andrika really saved me a heck of a lot of time! LOL!

To add to what she said, I really have an issue with how women are looked at in this society. Arguably they are equal to men but I don't believe it. If a woman gets pregnant, it's her fault for spreading her legs open. If she was raped, she didn't fight hard enough. If a woman gets an abortion, she is a selfish babykiller. If she gives the baby up for adoption, she didn't try hard enough to be a mother. If a woman is given a terminal pregnancy diagnosis, she is a selfish woman for aborting. If a young pro-life mom has a baby instead of an abortion, she too young and condemned as a teen mom for having sex out of wedlock. If a single mom has a baby she's a bad mom for not being married. If a mom doesn't allow an OB/GYN free reign over her body during the birth, she's whining. If she has a homebirth, she is selfish and dangerous. If a mom formula feeds, she is not giving her child the best start. If a woman breastfeeds, she's doing it for her not her baby. If a mom is working, she is selfish, even if she is working to support her family. If a mother puts her child in daycare, she's allowing someone else to raise her child. If a mom stays at home, she's being lazy and not contributing to society even if she can't find a job, take in another child or (god-forbid) wants to stay at home to raise her own. Bla, blah, blah.. You can't win no matter what so the decision to have a baby is incredibly personal and very dependent upon circumstances.

Even in North America, it's not easy to have a baby. I applaud women who do it when the conditions aren't ideal but just because this teen mom could doesn't mean the next teem mom can. Just because a single mom had a baby, doesn't mean every single mom can. I know it might be hard to imagine but even women who abort are mothers because they made a decision to help their unborn baby. Not every women who ends up pregnant are ready to be mothers and I applaud them for knowing their limits. If they are suffering and know they can't bring another into their suffering, instead of applauding them, we condemn them. I promise you it hurts their hearts too. I don't think there is a woman who has aborted that doesn't think about that for the rest of their life. Abortion is an issue that deserves nothing but compassion and empathy for all parties involved.
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  #14  
October 21st, 2009, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.) View Post


Even in North America, it's not easy to have a baby. I applaud women who do it when the conditions aren't ideal but just because this teen mom could doesn't mean the next teem mom can. Just because a single mom had a baby, doesn't mean every single mom can. I know it might be hard to imagine but even women who abort are mothers because they made a decision to help their unborn baby. Not every women who ends up pregnant are ready to be mothers and I applaud them for knowing their limits. If they are suffering and know they can't bring another into their suffering, instead of applauding them, we condemn them. I promise you it hurts their hearts too. I don't think there is a woman who has aborted that doesn't think about that for the rest of their life. Abortion is an issue that deserves nothing but compassion and empathy for all parties involved.
Comments like that is what I wish every girl who has ever had an abortion could read, just once, and know that there are people out there that don't judge them.

First, I do not agree with smoking and drinking and doing drugs when pregnant, I think if you decide to keep the baby you should do all to keep the baby healthy....

But I do support the mother to make the choice to continue the pregnancy or not. And as you said, mothers who abort did it to help their babies. For so many of us who have had an abortion (I have) we do it not out of selfish reasons, but reasons because it honestly is the best for the baby and the family we may already have. We make the best decision we can, and emotional rocks are thrown at us by others. The HARDEST decision I have ever had to make was the decision to have an abortion. Having a child at barely 19 years old and still in high school wasn't even that hard. It killed me. It hurt my boyfriend and I. But we did what was best for our children we already have. I do not second guess my choice because it was best for me and my boyfriend and our 2 children. I would have LOVED to make a different choice, but it was what was best for us.

That being said, holy crap I've had some harsh statements thrown my way. People telling me to shut my F-in legs, tell me my children should be taken away from me, ask me how I will ever explain to my daughter I killed her sibling, insinuated I was uneducated, good lord man, I can't believe some things people think they have the right to say.

Abortion is an issue no one wants to talk about, but it should be, people need to understand that for the vast majority of us it HURTS us greatly. The emotional scar will never go away. You can be against abortion, but people need to stop condemning people. What is right for you isn't right for me, and vice versa. I applaud those who can give their children up for adoption, for me, I couldn't do it.

So I really do like seeing comments like yours where you recognize the agony we can go through and how it IS a decision about doing what is best. That truly means a lot.
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  #15  
October 22nd, 2009, 08:35 AM
aussiemummy
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I never thought about it like that before. I'm not going to say that I'm pro choice because I doubt I will ever be. But I'm abit more understanding about abortion now. My friend had one ten years ago. I never judged her, I told her to do what she wanted to do but inside I was dying for the fetus. I never thought that she was too.
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  #16  
October 22nd, 2009, 11:56 AM
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I'm with Andrika, Froggy, the wonderful lady with clevage in her name (LOL)

I believe that *I* would take precidence over a fetus because I'm here, I'm paying my taxes, I work, I contribute to society. They do not. And they will not until they've taken a breath (yes, I full understand no baby pays taxes etc... but I'm going to assume you'll get the point).

That being said I'm NEVER going to tell someone what they have to do and what they don't. I was borderline prolife until I was faced with terminating a pregnancy. That doesn't mean the friends I have who've had abortions meant less to me, I just reminded myself that while I would never choose that, and that I felt sad for the baby, I could not stop it.

I'm ok with people being pro life. I really am. I just don't want to be told over and over that I'm wrong, because I'm not. Neither are they. We are people with opinions. And if you (generally speaking) want to leave your kids motherless to save an unborn baby, you go right ahead, I'm not going to.
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  #17  
October 28th, 2009, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by StaceyC View Post
I support the rights of the mother's. With that said, I don't think pregnant women should be getting drunk, smoking or doing drugs but I also would never support limiting women's rights with such prejudicial legislation. It would subjugate women, again, to a status of second class citizenship. The only way it could be enforced would be to force women to submit to a pregnancy test when attempting to engage in any "unsafe" or "risky" choices, even if they are legal. I suppose it would have to include purchasing lunch meat, frozen yogurt, sushi, alcohol, tobacco, caffeine, etc. I suppose we would also have to apply these restrictions to services such as salon services (due to chemicals), pedicures, etc. We might as well revoke their driving privileges and place them under house arrest.
The fact of the matter is, there is a major distinction (IMO) between what choices and individual should make vs what choices one should be forced to make. For instance, if my child's life depended on my donating blood or even a kidney, I cannot be forced to submit to either procedure even if society's majority would consider it the correct choice to make.

You cannot grant multiple persons EQUAL rights over one body. At one point or another the rights of one are going to conflict with the rights of the other and, therefore, the conflicting rights must be prioritized. As it stands, the rights of the autonomous person take precedent over the rights of the dependent fetus.
I think that's taking the point too far. Drinking, smoking, drugs etc have been proven over and over to be harmful to unborn children. Some of the other things you listed have, but not nearly to the same degree. This is my third pregnancy. I won't drink or smoke while I'm pregnant (I don't when I'm not pregnant, but that doesn't really matter here), but I ate a ham sandwich for lunch today, and washed it down with a bottle of mountain dew. I do not put those actions on the same level. I do however, understand your point about where to draw the line if a law like that were trying to get passed. To say "anything potentially harmful" would be excessive, definitely.

My answer to the original question: I'm pro-life, and I don't think a woman should behave in the manner stated while pregnant. When you choose to get pregnant (or choose to keep the baby, whichever happens first) you accept the responsibility that goes along with that choice. However, as pro-life as I am, I do not believe the government should take away a woman's right to choose. Overall I would support the mother's rights, but there are certain cases when the child should take precedence.

There was an episode of ER where the mother would not get a C-section and just let her full term baby die because she didn't want a surgery. Do I think that was an appropriate time for the government to step in? Yes. By the time the baby is in the third trimester I think it should have some rights to life, even though it's life is not guaranteed. I'm not guaranteed to survive pregnancy and childbirth any more than my fetus is, but I still have rights.
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  #18  
December 11th, 2009, 05:44 PM
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They both have rights though in the context of abortion... the baby has a right to live. That outweighs all of the mother's rights & actually I don't think that the mother has the right to kill her unborn baby.

Let me ask you (generally speaking)... do you as a mother have the right to kill your toddler b/c things are too complicated for you? Do you as the mother take precedence over that toddler? Did Susan Smith have the right to drown her children? No, no, & no, therefore we don't have the right to kill our unborn children. B/c they are just that... children, not fetuses.
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  #19  
December 13th, 2009, 04:14 PM
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I am not willing to take away a woman's right to choose what happens to her body. But with that being said I don't believe in aborting a baby because of your own irresponsibility. But if we take away the irresponsible womans right to have an abortion, she may not live like shes pregnant and do drugs and alcohol that could harm the baby for life. Then you have a baby born with severe health problems who has to grow up disabled because some witch didn't want to do the right thing and take care of her child and her responsibility. So in this case, I'd rather see the woman have an abortion. I met a girl who was smoking and taking pills at 8 months pregnant. When I asked her why she said she didn't care because she was going to give the child up for adoption. So that poor child might suffer potential health problems because his mother was irresponsible and didn't care about his life, but obviously somewhere she felt it was morally wrong to have an abortion so she chose not too, to keep the pregnancy, adopt out the baby and continue living life as if she weren't carrying a child.

Since becoming pregnant I stay away from smokers because of the possibility of second hand smoke harming my child. I wouldn't let someone smoke around my infant, so I'm living like he's already been born and keeping him from danger.
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  #20  
December 13th, 2009, 09:37 PM
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I really hate the fetus/toddler references. They are NOT the same thing. I am surprised this example is still used.
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