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Abortion Debate

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  #1  
November 30th, 2009, 09:08 PM
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Can you believe and not believe in Abortion at the same time?

I am for a mother's rights but only up until the point when the baby has become a fetus like an actual feeling, moving fetus which I believe is 12 weeks gestation. Does this contradict itself?

Although I also believe if the baby/mother would have an illness that would effect the mothers health or would have a greater than 50% chance of dying anyways at anytime an abortion would then be considered a needed procedure and not a wanted procedure... Do I make any logical sence?
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Last edited by ms.amy; November 30th, 2009 at 09:19 PM.
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  #2  
November 30th, 2009, 09:57 PM
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I don't support abortion as birth control, but in cases of rape or incest, or the health of the mother, then I do support it. It's a tragic loss even under those circumstances, but far more acceptable - in my opinion. I totally agree that the mother's health and well-being needs to come before the baby's. In an ideal situation it would never have to, but sometimes it does come down to that, and if the mother opts to save herself rather the risk her life, I would fully support her.

I don't think the issue is black and white, and I don't think it should ever be considered as such. I consider myself pro-life, as it's not a choice I myself would make. But I respect a woman's right to choose, and refuse to judge them for their decisions. Maybe that makes me pro-choice. I've never really figured it out.

Anyways, I believe it's considered an embryo until either 10 or 12 weeks (help me out Jess). So if your defining characteristic is the scientific/medical embryo to fetus transition, then "feeling and moving" wouldn't really play a role.
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  #3  
December 1st, 2009, 06:49 AM
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I have always debated this issue internally. As a teen, I believed everyone had the right to her own body. Then as an older teen, I was so against it. But right now, I am torn. I know I would never have one, but I have never been in the position to even approach the issue. ITA with Keskes with the whole pro-life vs. pro-choice. I guess the best position is for no one to ever HAVE to make that choice.
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  #4  
December 1st, 2009, 06:57 AM
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I think most pro-choice people feel the same way you do. I am very much pro-choice, but I only support abortions past the 12th week when the mother's life is at risk or there is a severe fetal deformity that would result in death or no quality of life. It's really not the black-and-white issue the pro-life side would like people to believe.
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  #5  
December 1st, 2009, 08:45 AM
diet_a&w's Avatar Susan
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I am pro-choice and believe the mother's right to choose but I myself would not choose that. I am okay with abortion in the first trimester and I do not believe in abortion as birth control.

I think you can totally be both. What I hate is when I say I'm pro-choice people automatically assume I'm all for partial birth abortion (which I'm not) and that I'd abort any chance I got. I liken it to being supportive of gay marriage but not being gay.
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  #6  
December 1st, 2009, 10:42 AM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keskes View Post
I don't support abortion as birth control, but in cases of rape or incest, or the health of the mother, then I do support it. It's a tragic loss even under those circumstances, but far more acceptable - in my opinion. I totally agree that the mother's health and well-being needs to come before the baby's. In an ideal situation it would never have to, but sometimes it does come down to that, and if the mother opts to save herself rather the risk her life, I would fully support her.

.

I'm just curious - how does your religion justify abortion in cases of rape or incest? If I understand correctly, this wasn't always the position of the LDS Church. I know that LDS value life very much so how can abortion be justified in those circumstances? Is some life not as valuable as other life?
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  #7  
December 1st, 2009, 10:53 AM
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I am VERY pro-choice. Mothers body - Mothers choice. That does NOT mean that personally I like abortion or that I would ever have one. I've CHOSEN 5 times to not have an abortion - but that was MY choice.
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  #8  
December 1st, 2009, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
I'm just curious - how does your religion justify abortion in cases of rape or incest? If I understand correctly, this wasn't always the position of the LDS Church. I know that LDS value life very much so how can abortion be justified in those circumstances? Is some life not as valuable as other life?
Rape/incest goes along with health of the mother. The mother's emotional health matters just as much as her physical health. If carrying a child would destroy her emotionally or physically, and she didn't choose to have sex or to get pregnant, she is not required to carry that child. Mind you that when anyone seeks the church's advice on abortion it comes with lots of counseling, prayer, etc. The mother is never explicitly ENCOURAGED to terminate the pregnancy - it's left in her hands, and her decision is ultimately between her and God. Those that I've known of have always chosen not to abort, though.
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  #9  
December 1st, 2009, 02:24 PM
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Yup, you sure can go both ways.

I'm "ok" with it until 12 weeks. After that I'd like a medical reason behind it. After viability I believe the baby should be delivered and placed into state/gov't care if the mother doesn't want it anymore. I don't believe in termination outside of the baby is going to die after 24 weeks. Even if the mother's life was at risk, many times the baby could be delivered and all would be well (not all the time, but many times).

I don't think I could choose it again. Yes, I've aborted, for medical reasons, but it's still an abortion. I almost think I'd rather proceed until I could at least hold and see my baby, as long as they wouldn't suffer.
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  #10  
December 2nd, 2009, 09:00 AM
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Yes, you can. This is me. I hate abortion. I hate the thought of it. I hate everything about it. I think that in any case other than where the mothers life is in danger or where there is something very very wrong with the fetus, having an abortion is reprehensible and basically murder.

However, I believe it should still be legal. Why? My feelings are not shared by everyone. My situation is different from that of other women. I havent' lived a day in another womans shoes, you know? Everyone is different and just because I think a person is a person whether it's inside the womb or out... I understand that not everyone shares that stance. For other people, for some the rights of the mother outweigh the rights of the unborn and thats their stance and it is a legitimate one. If I were to argue with someone who had that stance, neither of us would come out a winner.

Also, unfortunately, I do not see any reasonable way in which abortions could be banned. I mean yeah, you can slap a law on the books banning abortions, but 1) you can't change peoples hearts and minds just by putting a law on the books and 2) If so many are being performed there is obviously a NEED for them. In my mind the best way to eliminate abortion is to eliminate the NEED for them. I think that people need more education about and better access to birth control, and there needs to be more resources for... unwanted children. I mean you could outlaw abortion tell girls/women " oh put the baby up for adoption" but that is only going to help so many children until the market is saturated with babies and even newborns can't find homes. Given the number of abortions performed per year, this will defonately happen. Then what? Orphanages? Really, we need to stop things before conception. Abstinence isn't going to work. I think that birth control should be handed out for free, like candy and that education on how to use the birth control should be mandatory for all people after the age of 14.

I'm usually anti governemnt intervention, anti spending my tax money on pretty much anything, but in this case I would be a-ok with the goverment funding birth control education programs and giving out any type of birth control for free if it meant fewer abortions. Free pills, free shots, free condoms, free iuds, free sterilization, whatever people want. Or even just to kids and people who can't afford it or whatever. I really think people would use birth control more consistantly and effectively if they knew how and had access. I mean, seriously. It's crazy that schools STILL don't teach birth control to high schoolers. Thats insane.
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  #11  
December 2nd, 2009, 01:12 PM
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Birth control IS free. You can get it free at health clinics or planned parenthood, and don't even need a parent's permission. They also give out condoms for free.
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  #12  
December 2nd, 2009, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keskes View Post
Birth control IS free. You can get it free at health clinics or planned parenthood, and don't even need a parent's permission. They also give out condoms for free.
Not everywhere. There are still places where you need parental permission and a doctors rx for them.
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  #13  
December 2nd, 2009, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ~Tithen~ View Post
Not everywhere. There are still places where you need parental permission and a doctors rx for them.
I suppose you're right, and I shouldn't have made a blanket statement. But I've personally never heard of a health department charging for birth control. It's a prescription, but the HD doctor writes it and gives you the BCP. In most cases you can get free Depo, too. I guess some places need parental permission, but I've never seen or heard that either. Most places also treat STDs without parental permission, too. They'd rather get it taken care of and get the kid what she needs without the uptight parents getting in the way.
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  #14  
December 2nd, 2009, 07:34 PM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilmom View Post
Yes, you can. This is me. I hate abortion. I hate the thought of it. I hate everything about it. I think that in any case other than where the mothers life is in danger or where there is something very very wrong with the fetus, having an abortion is reprehensible and basically murder.

However, I believe it should still be legal. Why? My feelings are not shared by everyone. My situation is different from that of other women. I havent' lived a day in another womans shoes, you know? Everyone is different and just because I think a person is a person whether it's inside the womb or out... I understand that not everyone shares that stance. For other people, for some the rights of the mother outweigh the rights of the unborn and thats their stance and it is a legitimate one. If I were to argue with someone who had that stance, neither of us would come out a winner.

.

I do not understand this position. It sounds to me like you are saying that abortion should not be illegal because there is not a general consensus that abortion is murder although YOU belief it is murder. Are you saying that our laws should be based on what some or most people believe to be morally right or wrong? I especially wonder about when you say that "for some the rights of the mother outweigh the rights of the unborn and thats their stance and it is a legitimate one." what makes it legitimate?
You say it is basically murder but if someone doesn't believe it to be murder what then? are you saying it would not longer be murder because that person doesn't believe it to be murder?
Why couldn't i change your paragraph slightly and pretend we are back in the 50's or 60's? --- example:
My feelings are not shared by everyone. My situation is different from that of other white people. I havent' lived a day in another white persons shoes, you know? Everyone is different and just because I think a person is a person whether it's white or black or red... I understand that not everyone shares that stance. For other people, for some the rights of the whites outweigh the rights of the blacks or browns and thats their stance and it is a legitimate one. If I were to argue with someone who had that stance, neither of us would come out a winner.
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  #15  
December 2nd, 2009, 07:57 PM
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I think she meant that it can't be illegal because people will do it anyways, and it's safer for everyone if it remains legal. That what I took from it. You can tell people they're not allowed to have a doctor do it, but they'll just use weird herbs and coat hangers. Making it illegal won't stop it from happening, and plenty of lives will be lost as people try to illegally abort their unwanted fetuses.

Also, a fetus being alive is an opinion, and everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if you (general) think they couldn't be more wrong. It doesn't make their opening illegitimate.. just wrong.
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  #16  
December 2nd, 2009, 08:46 PM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keskes View Post
I think she meant that it can't be illegal because people will do it anyways, and it's safer for everyone if it remains legal. That what I took from it. You can tell people they're not allowed to have a doctor do it, but they'll just use weird herbs and coat hangers. Making it illegal won't stop it from happening, and plenty of lives will be lost as people try to illegally abort their unwanted fetuses.

Also, a fetus being alive is an opinion, and everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if you (general) think they couldn't be more wrong. It doesn't make their opening illegitimate.. just wrong.

Well, I'm curious to hear if that is what she really meant, but I again I don't think that makes sense. In what other circumstance would a person justify the legalization of murder - she herself said she views it to be murder - in order to make things "safer" for everyone? Let's say it is legal for men to kill their wives but many people believe it to be morally wrong because men and women have equal value as human beings. But, let's say history has shown us that if we make it illegal for a man to kill his wife he is likely to still kill her but just try and make it appear to be an accident - gas leak in the house, drain brake fluid in the car etc etc and these methods often lead to others getting hurt in the process. So....although a person may be very much against the legalization of men killing their wives, it should remain legal because it is safer for everyone? that doesn't make logical sense.
And it also isn't being intellectually honest to claim that MORE people would die if abortion was illegal rather than legal. If she believes abortion is murder than that means she believes the unborn to be a person and so therefore it would only be "safer for everyone" to be legal IF the number of illegal abortions performed plus the number of women who die during or after those procedures outnumbered the number of abortions currently being performed plus the number of women who die during or after the legal procedures and I have NEVER heard anyone make that claim before.
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  #17  
December 3rd, 2009, 05:57 AM
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If you abort your baby with a coat hanger, you are more likely to die than if you have a doctor perform the actual procedure. That's kind of common sense. You don't think more women would die from illegal abortions than legal ones? Really? We should all just go ahead and give ourselves C-sections too, I guess.

You can't liken it to murdering your wife. Scientifically, an adult woman is considered alive. Scientifically, a fetus is not considered alive until it would be viable outside the womb. Until science catches up with "moral opinion" abortion is not on the same table as murdering your wife. It's not considered a "lesser human" - it's not considered human, period.

Last edited by IAmMomMomIAm; December 3rd, 2009 at 06:21 AM.
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  #18  
December 3rd, 2009, 07:24 AM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keskes View Post
If you abort your baby with a coat hanger, you are more likely to die than if you have a doctor perform the actual procedure. That's kind of common sense. You don't think more women would die from illegal abortions than legal ones? Really? We should all just go ahead and give ourselves C-sections too, I guess.

You can't liken it to murdering your wife. Scientifically, an adult woman is considered alive. Scientifically, a fetus is not considered alive until it would be viable outside the womb. Until science catches up with "moral opinion" abortion is not on the same table as murdering your wife. It's not considered a "lesser human" - it's not considered human, period.

Like I said, but I will repeat myself, SHE said that she considers abortion to be murder. Therfore, SHE considers the fetus to be a human life (you can't murder a nonhuman life) therefore the value of the TWO human lives are equal. Reread my post, will you please? I said the number of abortions plus the number of women who die with legal vs illegal abortions - there would still be more LIVES lost with legal abortions. Man, you get upset when people don't read your posts - I get the impression you didn't read mine.
Also, a fetus most definitely IS considered to be alive!! are you kidding? if something isn't alive it is dead - there is no inbetween. Even plants are alive!!!

ETA: I am sorry about my tone - I was going to rewrite the above post but I'll leave it. The whole reason I wrote anything was because I don't understand the position the position that some people give - "I think it is murder but I also think it should be legal." And so every example or argument I was making is off of the basic premise that she believes abortion is murder. I totally understand that some don't consider a fetus to be a life of any value etc etc etc BUT she herself said that it was and that is what everything I have written is based on. That is what I am trying to flush out - how exactly she justifies her position - that murder should remain legal!

Last edited by AMDG; December 3rd, 2009 at 07:31 AM.
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  #19  
December 3rd, 2009, 07:54 AM
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I did read your post. I don't think there would be more lives lost with legal abortion.. because I don't think making it illegal would drastically reduce the number of abortions that happen, they would just be hidden. Doctors would still do them, women would take surprise trips to other countries and mysteriously come back not pregnant, and those without the resources for that would try very hard to find a way to do it themselves. I think less people would be willing to do it if it was illegal, but if a law doesn't stop people from murdering someone they DO think is alive, it's certainly not going to stop them from killing a fetus.

Yes, a fetus is alive, but it's not LIFE. It has a heart beat, but it's not considered life, scientifically speaking, until it's viable. If it was, then it would be illegal to kill it. But it's legal because it's not considered life, it's considered part of the mother. If you kill a pregnant woman, it's considered double homicide if she's past a certain gestation.. I assume 20ish weeks, but I've never looked up the specifics. If she's before that point, it's not murder. Because before that the fetus is not considered alive.

I personally think abortion is murder, but I also think it should remain legal. Making it illegal would accomplish very little.

ETA: I believe it's murder because religion says it is. But religion doesn't make laws, and shouldn't make laws.. though it's true that the fundamental laws of our country are based on the 10 Commandments, but that's more about common sense, than actual religion these days.

The scientific criteria for life:
Does it react to it’s environment?
Does it adapt to its environment?
Does it reproduce?
Does it grow?
Does it obtain and use energy?
Is it made of cells?

Last edited by IAmMomMomIAm; December 3rd, 2009 at 08:02 AM.
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  #20  
December 3rd, 2009, 01:34 PM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keskes View Post

I personally think abortion is murder, but I also think it should remain legal. Making it illegal would accomplish very little.

ETA: I believe it's murder because religion says it is. But religion doesn't make laws, and shouldn't make laws.. though it's true that the fundamental laws of our country are based on the 10 Commandments, but that's more about common sense, than actual religion these days.
?

So, what should make laws? The general consensus of the people? are you saying that what is right or wrong is subjective? Are you saying that because many people do not believe that the unborn have value that therefore the unborn don't? what if the general consensus was that the severly mentally retarded aren't equal in value to the rest of us? would you argue that it is murder to kill them but should be legal religion doesn't make laws and just becuase LDS value the metally handicapped that doesn't mean the rest of the country does?
I am obviously pro-life and i believe all life has equal value. i disagree with those who say the unborn are not worth protecting but of course it would make sense that abortion should be legal if the unborn is not a life. i find disgusting that people would argue that abortion is murder and yet say that the murder of the unborn should be legal. that is much more disturbing to me than people who argue that it isn't a life.
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