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Aborting because of gender


Abortion Debate

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  #41  
February 19th, 2011, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Kendra3 View Post
I am tired of dumb people. I DO NOT agree with abortion AT ALL. But because people will do what people do I would seriously hope that it becomes illegal or draw the line somewhere. Everyone who has an abortion has to be forced to get a hysterectomy. No reverse and no way in the world they can have kids.
Ok. So in your opinion someone who has to have an abortion due to an etopic pregnancy should have her reproductive rights revoked? I think getting an abortion for vanity reasons is wrong but you can't just lump them in with people who have legitimate reasons for an abortion.
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  #42  
February 19th, 2011, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Kendra3 View Post
I am tired of dumb people. I DO NOT agree with abortion AT ALL. But because people will do what people do I would seriously hope that it becomes illegal or draw the line somewhere. Everyone who has an abortion has to be forced to get a hysterectomy. No reverse and no way in the world they can have kids.
Statements like these can be seen as general attacks on people who do not share your belief system. Also, there's a difference between being a bad person and being dumb, however you define dumb.

My personal belief system would state that women aborting past 20 weeks for a non-lethal/non-severely-handicapped baby should not expect their reproductive rights to be provided by me if I held the key.
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  #43  
February 21st, 2011, 12:45 PM
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The issue is that we have to draw a line. I mean, what makes a baby at 20 weeks more human or more alive than a baby at 18 weeks? Or 15weeks? Or 8 Weeks? Development? According to physiology, the avg. person is not fully developed until age 25. I mean, at conception, the baby is a person,it can't become anything else. I believe that the only logical line to draw is at conception, because at one moment there are two seprate things (egg adn sperm) and the next they joint to create a new thing...a person. I understand that there are people out there with difficult situation, but I don't think that we should let outside circumstances ie how the baby came to be, wanted vs unwanted or perfection vs nonperfection determine a humans worth.
Ectopic pregnancies aren't techincally aborted, the child cannot survive where it is and until we find the technology to transplant the baby from the tubes to the uterus, the baby will die, it is just a matter of time. So removing the baby at that point is very different from an abortion.
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  #44  
February 21st, 2011, 02:17 PM
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Children CAN survive ectopic pregnancies. BBC News | Health | Doctors hail 'miracle' baby

20 weeks is an arbitrary phrase indicating when fetal gender is typically learned, to describe about where in a pregnancy my beliefs conflict with "abortion rights." 20 weeks-ish or second trimester are more expansive. I see a huge difference in early vs later term abortions (by which I mean miscarriages, chemical, and surgical abortions). I personally feel less bad if I were to need to lose a ball of cells vs a formed fetus.
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  #45  
February 21st, 2011, 03:00 PM
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OK so disregard all women's rights and just force them to carry a child to term because you (general) believe life starts at conception? Sorry can't get on that bandwagon. Do I think there should be a line drawn, yes. However, to draw it so early or to even draw one at all infringes on the rights we as women currently have.

Outside circumstances do matter. Not all women can deal with certain situations the same. Lets say for arguments sake the child is a product of rape. So to you it's OK to force that women to deal with what happened to her on a daily basis until she delivers. Never mind the effects that might have on her mentally. Sure she may go mad and end up suicidal after or during the pregnancy. But that's OK because the unborn fetus was protected. We should never force our beliefs on others, and that included abortion rights.
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  #46  
February 21st, 2011, 06:44 PM
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If you read the article you will see it is a rarity for this to happen. She was lucky that the placenta basically made a barrier that preented internal bleeding and miscarriage. Most etopic pregnancies hae to be aborted due to the risk of internal bleeding.

The quote from the article:

He said the chances of such an embryo surviving is one in 60 million.
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  #47  
February 22nd, 2011, 02:10 PM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.A.T View Post
We should never force our beliefs on others, and that included abortion rights.
really? we, as a society, "force" our beliefs on people ALL THE TIME. Stop and think about some of our laws - do you really want to stick by that statement?
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  #48  
February 22nd, 2011, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
really? we, as a society, "force" our beliefs on people ALL THE TIME. Stop and think about some of our laws - do you really want to stick by that statement?
Yes I do! I know that many of our laws infringe upon the rights of other, that doesn't mean that I agree with them or support them. They just are and I accept that. What I think you misunderstand with me is that what I feel and/or believe doesn't carry over into law. Do you mean to tell me that you agree with each and every law on the books? Or do you know that they are just laws and therefore accept them for what they are until they are changed? Cause honestly if you're going to sit there and tell me that you stand by and believe in each and every single law on the books, then I'm going to have to call bs on that.
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  #49  
February 22nd, 2011, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.A.T View Post
Yes I do! I know that many of our laws infringe upon the rights of other, that doesn't mean that I agree with them or support them. They just are and I accept that. What I think you misunderstand with me is that what I feel and/or believe doesn't carry over into law. Do you mean to tell me that you agree with each and every law on the books? Or do you know that they are just laws and therefore accept them for what they are until they are changed? Cause honestly if you're going to sit there and tell me that you stand by and believe in each and every single law on the books, then I'm going to have to call bs on that.
I guess maybe I don't understand you. You said that we should never force our beliefs on others and that includes abortion rights. Of course I don't agree with all the laws on the books - not even close. What laws do you agree with? Do you agree with speeding limits? Because that is society forcing its belief that speeding laws make the roads safer for all. Do you agree with laws against child pornography? because as a society we are forcing our belief that child porn is abuse, bad for society and bad for any child involved.
How can you say we should never force our beliefs on others? I assumed you meant by enacting laws. You must be against every single law right? what laws DON'T force a certain belief on others?
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  #50  
February 22nd, 2011, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
I guess maybe I don't understand you. You said that we should never force our beliefs on others and that includes abortion rights. Of course I don't agree with all the laws on the books - not even close. What laws do you agree with? Laws that coincide with my beliefs naturally. That's just how things tend to work. A person will agree with things they believe in. Do you agree with speeding limits?Actually no but I do abide by them. Because that is society forcing its belief that speeding laws make the roads safer for all. Do you agree with laws against child pornography? Yes, I do agree with it them. It's a matter that the child is underage and cannot legally consent. because as a society we are forcing our belief that child porn is abuse, bad for society and bad for any child involved.
How can you say we should never force our beliefs on others? I assumed you meant by enacting laws. You must be against every single law right? what laws DON'T force a certain belief on others?
The point is that the law is the law and I have to accept them, regardless of my belief system. What I believe vs. what actually is are two different things, and I acknowledge that. I can mentally separate the two and some people cannot. At the end of the day whether you agree, or understand for that matter, with my stance does not matter to me. I feel how I feel and that's just the way it is.
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  #51  
February 22nd, 2011, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.A.T View Post
The point is that the law is the law and I have to accept them, regardless of my belief system. What I believe vs. what actually is are two different things, and I acknowledge that. I can mentally separate the two and some people cannot. At the end of the day whether you agree, or understand for that matter, with my stance does not matter to me. I feel how I feel and that's just the way it is.
I wrote a long response and it was deleted but basically - I think it is sad that you believe "the law is the law and I have to accept them" - ugghh our country has made so much progress specifically because people didn't believe that. Where could the civil rights movement have gotten had people held that view?
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  #52  
February 23rd, 2011, 07:44 AM
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And that's OK, you have every right to think it's sad. This is how I see things, you see them differently and guess what, it's OK.
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  #53  
February 25th, 2011, 12:58 PM
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What about the rights of the unborn women? If life begins at conception, then abortion is just murder of a younger person and belief would not be an issue because don't we all agree on what murder is? THe only issue that people disagree on is when a baby becomes a person and therefore cannot be voluntariliy killed. I believe that it is very dangerous to play with that line of life and personhood...I have known many pro-abortion people who believe that killing an infant who is discovered to be undesireable is ok as long as it is done within a certain timeframe after birth. But that is a different issue. I think that all life is sacred, whether they are wanted, planned, perfect or not. For clarity I do not supprt the death penalty because that is an unnatrual death.
As far as rape goes, I think that I cannot speak to that as I have not been raped. I believe that that discussion should be reserved for rape victims who found themselves preganant only. I do have an opinion on it, but I will not share it because I don't want to touch such a sensative subject when I don't know who may be reading it. Rape is a traumatic experience and I would never want to make it worse.
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  #54  
March 9th, 2011, 01:00 PM
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Life, of a sort, begins at conception, but a sperm and an egg are "alive", too. That doesn't make them human beings or assign them any special rights. There is nothing "dangerous" about playing the "personhood" game. It is a necessity when discussing the issue of abortion because it IS an issue of personhood. Clearly, calling a fertilized egg a "person" is a bit of a stretch. It has almost none of the attributes that we would use to define a human being. Along the same lines, suggesting killing a human being which is born would be a clear infringement of a human being's right to life. These are not the gray areas of the debate.

If all life is sacred, are you careful not to walk on the grass and harm it? Of course not. You might say that all human life is sacred, but I'm sure you don't hold sacred the skin cells on your arm that die when you scratch an itch. No, what we say is that human beings are sacred, but then, you first have to define what a human being is when you defend the relevant claims.

If you don't support the death penalty, would you support killing someone if that is the only way to stop them from killing others? That would be an unnatural death, as would be the deaths caused by the murderer. Sometimes we have to weigh competing harms and make tough decisions. BTW, I oppose the death penalty, too, but not because it is an unnatural death. I oppose it because we make errors in judgment and if you kill the accused then you can't rectify the error.

Regarding rape, it might help to talk about it because if a rape victim thinks they are "murdering a person", when in fact they are not, they might feel better to know the relevant facts and not carry unnecessary guilt.
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  #55  
May 12th, 2011, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by smt View Post
Regarding rape, it might help to talk about it because if a rape victim thinks they are "murdering a person", when in fact they are not, they might feel better to know the relevant facts and not carry unnecessary guilt.
I could be reading you wrong, but it sounds like you are saying an abortion is not "murdering a person." There are many (myself included) who believe that it is. The problem is that we can't all agree on when a person is formed (conception, implantation, 20 weeks, birth). So, we can't give rape victims the "relevant facts" because there are no indisputable facts telling when a person is created.
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  #56  
May 12th, 2011, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justarandomname47 View Post
I could be reading you wrong, but it sounds like you are saying an abortion is not "murdering a person." There are many (myself included) who believe that it is. The problem is that we can't all agree on when a person is formed (conception, implantation, 20 weeks, birth). So, we can't give rape victims the "relevant facts" because there are no indisputable facts telling when a person is created.
I can't speak for her, but personally before 12 weeks (and or first trimester) I do not believe abortion is murdering a person. After 12 weeks for me the line becomes thinner, because I do believe they should be performed as early as possible.. but until viability to me, in my opinion, it is not a "person" nor would it be murder.



technically, the removal of a fetus by any medical means from the uterus is an abortion. Yes, miscarriages ARE abortions. The removal of a fetus = abortion. doesn't matter if it's dead or alive in medical terms. We as people put the "lines" that we want on the term. Usually someone having a D&C for a miscarriage will never be said to have an abortion, however, if you read medical records in many cases it says just that. Heck, even a natural miscarriage is medically an abortion!

In fact, where I'm from, any medical procedure that removes fetal tissue, dead or alive, is considered an abortion. If the fetus is already dead, it's done in a hospital, if the fetus is alive (think non viable) you go to the abortion clinic at the hospital. Still listed in the records as "medical abortion".

You are entitled to your beliefs on the matter. As am I, as is the cat lady up the street. We leave the playing field open to allow people to make a choice to exercise their beliefs. You don't want an abortion, don't have one. But don't tell the couple who practice contraception like an art but still have an mix-up that they cannot have one.. unless you want to pay taxes into a federal program for people who want an abortion but you wont let have one.

We make advances in society all the time. banning abortions to me seems like a step BACK in time to where women had illegitimate children, were shunned by their family etc. There are enough unwanted children in this world now, don't add another billion of them.



eta: I dont believe in abortion for gender for any reason. I'm all for gender scans being done only past viability.
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  #57  
May 13th, 2011, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by justarandomname47 View Post
I could be reading you wrong, but it sounds like you are saying an abortion is not "murdering a person." There are many (myself included) who believe that it is. The problem is that we can't all agree on when a person is formed (conception, implantation, 20 weeks, birth). So, we can't give rape victims the "relevant facts" because there are no indisputable facts telling when a person is created.
Sure, we all have our opinions on things like this. The question is, what facts do we have to support our claims. When we use a word like "person", that has a specific meaning. I think when you really drill down into the details that a good case can be made that a "person" is much more than something like a single cell. There ARE indisputable facts which can be shared and which can help us assess the situation relating to personhood. So, where do we draw the exact line? I don't know, but that does not mean we can't safely draw lines in some places.
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  #58  
May 13th, 2011, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ~Tithen~ View Post
We leave the playing field open to allow people to make a choice to exercise their beliefs.

There are enough unwanted children in this world now, don't add another billion of them.

eta: I dont believe in abortion for gender for any reason. I'm all for gender scans being done only past viability.
When looking at these statements, why would you say that abortion for personal choice is valid or for preventing an unwanted child coming into the world, but not if it is for gender specific reasons? Why would that then be an invalid choice?
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  #59  
May 13th, 2011, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by smt View Post
Sure, we all have our opinions on things like this. The question is, what facts do we have to support our claims. When we use a word like "person", that has a specific meaning. I think when you really drill down into the details that a good case can be made that a "person" is much more than something like a single cell. There ARE indisputable facts which can be shared and which can help us assess the situation relating to personhood. So, where do we draw the exact line? I don't know, but that does not mean we can't safely draw lines in some places.
Many believe that what makes a person a "person" is a soul. And most of those believe that a soul exists from conception. So, I don't think there are any indisputable facts when it comes to personhood. I'm not willing to tell someone, "It's ok if you abort that baby - it wasn't even a person yet."
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  #60  
May 13th, 2011, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by justarandomname47 View Post
Many believe that what makes a person a "person" is a soul. And most of those believe that a soul exists from conception. So, I don't think there are any indisputable facts when it comes to personhood. I'm not willing to tell someone, "It's ok if you abort that baby - it wasn't even a person yet."
I agree, there are no relevant facts relating to "souls". But there are facts relating to what does or does not make up a person and those facts ARE relevant. So, the conclusion here is that a "soul" is no more relevant to the issue than any other personal opinion that someone has. In that case, I would say you shouldn't have an abortion, but that is not a reason for someone that believes differently to not have one. If you are going to assert that a soul does exist at conception then that places a burden on you to show how you know that is true.
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