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Aborting because of gender


Abortion Debate

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  #61  
May 13th, 2011, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smt View Post
I agree, there are no relevant facts relating to "souls". But there are facts relating to what does or does not make up a person and those facts ARE relevant. So, the conclusion here is that a "soul" is no more relevant to the issue than any other personal opinion that someone has. In that case, I would say you shouldn't have an abortion, but that is not a reason for someone that believes differently to not have one. If you are going to assert that a soul does exist at conception then that places a burden on you to show how you know that is true.
A person is defined as "a human being regarded as an individual." Since the DNA of that fertilized egg is unique it could be argued that it is an individual. Therefore, that fertilized egg could be considered a person. You may disagree - you probably do. That isn't the issue. The issue is that there are no facts that state exactly when personhood is reached.
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  #62  
May 13th, 2011, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justarandomname47 View Post
A person is defined as "a human being regarded as an individual." Since the DNA of that fertilized egg is unique it could be argued that it is an individual. Therefore, that fertilized egg could be considered a person. You may disagree - you probably do. That isn't the issue. The issue is that there are no facts that state exactly when personhood is reached.
Except you wouldn't say that all cells with unique DNA are individuals. In your own body you have transcription errors in individual cells that now contain unique DNA. You would not call those cells unique individuals. Another way to look at this is that in the case of twins you might have two identical cells with identical DNA. You would not call those the same individual. No, what it is that makes up a person is something much more than unique DNA. Also, the use of the word "individual" is not helpful. An individual what? An "individual human being". That is not saying anything new, it is just rephrasing the original issue to "What is an individual human being".

While we may not be able to state exactly when personhood is reached, but we can say when personhood definitely does exist and when it does not. In between there is a lot of gray area.
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  #63  
May 13th, 2011, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by smt View Post
While we may not be able to state exactly when personhood is reached, but we can say when personhood definitely does exist and when it does not. In between there is a lot of gray area.
agreed.
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  #64  
May 15th, 2011, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smt View Post
When looking at these statements, why would you say that abortion for personal choice is valid or for preventing an unwanted child coming into the world, but not if it is for gender specific reasons? Why would that then be an invalid choice?
As I said prior to that, personally I believe abortions should be done by 12 weeks. You do not know gender by then. I'm all for no doctor giving gender before viability to prevent abortions for gender. those people obviously want a baby, they just want the ability to choose which gender, which I do not agree with at all.

It's a bit of a contradiction I'm aware, but If you want a child, take what you get. If you don't want the child, have your abortion, and have it early. Viability (which could be adjusted to 23 weeks as babies are surviving around then now) is viability. If it "could" potentially survive outside your body, you've waited too long.

But really, I'd like to see it dropped back to 12 weeks except for medical reasons, I've always had this opinion. I've done TFMR and even then, it's an awful choice. I couldn't imagine what would posses a person to terminate a child that they obviously want and they've felt kick because it's the wrong sex... truly cannot figure it out.
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  #65  
May 15th, 2011, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Tithen~ View Post
...If you want a child, take what you get.

I couldn't imagine what would posses a person to terminate a child that they obviously want and they've felt kick because it's the wrong sex... truly cannot figure it out.
What if someone could take a pill and select the sex of the child before it was conceived, would you have a problem with that?
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  #66  
May 15th, 2011, 11:55 AM
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Nope, because the baby hasn't been conceived yet. there has been no joining of sperm and egg, you just ruled out the sperm that would make the gender you did not want. not the same as a kicking and moving baby being aborted because it has the wrong junk.

I want a girl. No secret. We plan on doing all the sways and diets to make our chances for a girl the best. Will I be upset if we have a boy? yes, my step son is a boy, I have one already. Would I kill him because he's a boy? NO WAY.
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  #67  
May 15th, 2011, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ~Tithen~ View Post
Nope, because the baby hasn't been conceived yet. there has been no joining of sperm and egg, you just ruled out the sperm that would make the gender you did not want. not the same as a kicking and moving baby being aborted because it has the wrong junk.
What if there was a gender test for the day after conception? What would be wrong with killing that fertilized egg on that day, for any reason, even if just on a whim? After all, there is no kicking and moving baby being aborted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Tithen~ View Post
I want a girl. No secret. We plan on doing all the sways and diets to make our chances for a girl the best. Will I be upset if we have a boy? yes, my step son is a boy, I have one already. Would I kill him because he's a boy? NO WAY.
I agree that it would be wrong to murder a person over gender, but if you terminated a pregnancy before 12 weeks then there is no person being murdered, right? If there is no person then, by definition, it can't be murder.
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  #68  
May 17th, 2011, 11:05 AM
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my main point is.. gender is rarely determined except by cvs before 12 weeks. That is my personal limit for terminations except for medical reasons, I will judge, and have judged people who have waited until 18 or 19 weeks to decide to terminate because I believe there is no need for that. roughly 8 weeks is more than enough time to make a decision.

Before 12 weeks, or first trimester.. which I believe has been adjusted to 13?... I have 0 problems with abortions. None. If you have a cvs and it's not a boy, go ahead as long as you are not more than 12 weeks to the dot pregnant. . The issue with gender selection is it doesn't happen until much later into pregnancy, which is too far for my personal comfort level and I consider it wrong.

Sometimes I wish there was a legal way to sell your baby (not adoption).. I bet a lot less babies would be aborted for gender if you could get $15k to carry it for another 20 weeks.

****I'm starting to have major problems with the adoption system. We dont license people to raise their own kids, but we put good parents through the wringer and disqualify them for stupid reasons (like a pool) to raise kids that nobody wants. And if we do approve them, they're charged insane amounts of money for it. utterly idiotic in my books.
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  #69  
May 17th, 2011, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Tithen~ View Post
****I'm starting to have major problems with the adoption system. We dont license people to raise their own kids, but we put good parents through the wringer and disqualify them for stupid reasons (like a pool) to raise kids that nobody wants. And if we do approve them, they're charged insane amounts of money for it. utterly idiotic in my books.
I agree on this! We have friends were trying to go through the government and passed all the crazy tests and paperwork and jumped through the hoops...still waiting 6 months later and no one even contacts them. There are kids that need homes. There are people approved for kids. Why in the world are we not doing more here!?
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  #70  
May 25th, 2011, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ThreeLittleRockstars View Post
Omg Okay first the intelligender is NOT accurate at all. Out of something like 30-40 women who did it in my playroom when we were pregnant 3 yes THREE were correct. That means 37-27 were WRONG. Imagine if all those 27 women aborted their pregnancys

People who abort due to gender make me sick and they do not deserve any children.


I remember a case a few years back on a gender selection forum only it was a lady who had already had a boy who she claimed to be satans child because he was very disobedient, she got pregnant again and was overjoyed it was a girl then miscarried on christmas day, then TTC another girl and when she found out it was a boy she came to ingender hoping we were all going to tell her we would support her wanting to have an abortion , even after all the people saying yes gender selection can be fun but we would never abort the child . and begging her not to abort the baby. she went to a abortion clinic and had it done anyway, sense the abortion she has been unsuccessful TTC again.


Bottom line Gender selection is never 100% .
if your not willing to love and accept the child regardless of gender outcome you should not be TTC.
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  #71  
May 26th, 2011, 06:36 AM
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FWiW, I don't necessarily support abortion over gender, but I am just curious if there are any valid moral reasons against (as opposed to the emotional reasons given here).
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  #72  
May 26th, 2011, 06:58 AM
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Morally,
you get what you get and the child (boy or girl) is a gift. If you don't like it, don't have a baby, period. What's the point if you're just going to pick and choose. Someone who would abort over the gender of a child (with NO medical reason) probably has some psychological issues and shouldn't be a parent in the first place. It's just disgusting that people will go through these lengths and then complain when they start ttc (as such in the pp's example of the girl who thought her kid was Satan's Spawn) and it doesn't work.

Surprise, surprise! I say you gave up the right to parent when you abort for no good reason. And I do believe in 'choice' but I also believe there are consequences for certain choices we do make in our lives.

We're not talking a woman who was raped, has a medical condition or baby has one, is a teenager and can't care for a newborn or selective reduction: We're talking aborting because the baby is the wrong gender; that to me is so wrong.


As far as gender "disappointment" (another PP mentioned), I think that it's normal to want to have a lil girl to dress up or a boy to play ball with, but to be utterly disappointed by the sex of the child is not normal. Most parents will accept the fact that they got the opposite of what they expected or wanted, but they will also melt when they see their boy even if they wanted a lil girl. My 2nd child, I wanted a girl. No secret there. I wanted a girl because I was sure my husband would say no to a 3rd child if I had a boy (that would give us one of each). Well, my baby was a boy. BUT after a few days of feeling like "Well there goes my having another one" dreams, I got over it and my healthy, beautiful and very handsome son was born . I would not change one thing about it. Eventually my dh agreed for #3 and it worked out anyway. Had I aborted AJ, I don't think I would have deserved to have another baby.


As my dd would say "You get what ya get and you don't throw a fit" and in this kind of situation, I believe that statement fits PERFECTLY!
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  #73  
May 26th, 2011, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by smt View Post
FWiW, I don't necessarily support abortion over gender, but I am just curious if there are any valid moral reasons against (as opposed to the emotional reasons given here).
I laughed out loud when I read your post. There are plenty of moral reasons...just not that you and I would agree on, probably. You'd probably just say my morals were emotional.

Something we might agree on is that abortion based on gender is, by nature, sexist, which is immoral.
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  #74  
May 26th, 2011, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by GSLynn View Post
I do believe in 'choice' but I also believe there are consequences for certain choices we do make in our lives.
I agree there can be consequences. First of all, abortion carries a number of risks. Second, there is no guarantee that anyone will get pregnant a second time (or a first time). If you get pregnant and have an abortion then you may not get another chance to be pregnant. This happened to my sister. But I think it is mistaken to imply that the consequences may be some sort of punishment (maybe you were not saying that).

Quote:
Originally Posted by GSLynn View Post
We're talking aborting because the baby is the wrong gender; that to me is so wrong.
Right, and again, that isn't really a moral reason, it is an emotional appeal. I certainly understand the emotional appeal, particularly if you are a female and it is females that tend to be aborted most often. No one wants to think that they may not have been allowed to be born just because they were a particular sex. But then, both sexes can look at abortion in general from the same perspective. The hard thing to do is to disconnect our feelings after the fact, whereas, if you were aborted there would be no "you" to care.

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Originally Posted by GSLynn View Post
As my dd would say "You get what ya get and you don't throw a fit" and in this kind of situation, I believe that statement fits PERFECTLY!
Ya, my DW says that all the time. I hate that saying. It is little different than saying "shut up, i don't want to hear you complain". Why deny someone the chance to express their disappointment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justarandomname47 View Post
I laughed out loud when I read your post. There are plenty of moral reasons...just not that you and I would agree on, probably. You'd probably just say my morals were emotional.
I think we could agree on moral issues. As you said, the question would be whether or not they are actual moral arguments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justarandomname47 View Post
Something we might agree on is that abortion based on gender is, by nature, sexist, which is immoral.
Ya, I think by definition a gender based decision could be a type of sexism. But in the case of making a decision before another human being existed I don't think the word "sexist" would apply.
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  #75  
May 26th, 2011, 08:31 AM
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Ya, I think by definition a gender based decision could be a type of sexism. But in the case of making a decision before another human being existed I don't think the word "sexist" would apply.
I think sexist would apply. The definition of sexist is "prejudice or discrimination based on sex." This clearly falls into this case. It's not about whether you are talking about a fetus or a walking, talking child. You can be sexist towards an animal. It's all about the attitude being based on sex.

I'm probably not being clear here. What I mean is, if I'm being sexist then it isn't about what I'm being sexist towards. It's about my attitude and prejudice. Therefore, it doesn't matter if I'm being sexist towards a cluster of cells, an adult, or an animal, I'm still being sexist.

Personally (emotionally), I think being sexist is the least of the moral arguments against aborting based on sex, but it is a valid one.
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  #76  
May 26th, 2011, 08:10 PM
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It's impossible to debate morals unless you're in a place where there are defined time lines for abortion. When I lost my twins and had my surgery, there were girls in there 17 and 18 weeks for abortions, talking about how they could FEEL their babies.

I am pro choice. However, I am all for guidelines for that choice when it involves a potential life. Why a person can't make a choice in 8 weeks (from positive test to 2nd tri) is beyond me. if that reason is to see the gender.. that makes me shake my head. You want a baby, if you want to choose, go find a clinic to do IVF with gender selection and do it that way, if you're not willing to shell out 15k, take what you get.

But as I've said, my opinions.

S'why I've also said there should be a legal market for babies for sale. We'd have a lot less gender selective abortions if you could make 10-15k (minus lawyer fees) to carry the child to term and give it to a family who can't have kids.
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  #77  
August 23rd, 2012, 03:29 PM
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It's disgusting and downright hateful. i draw the line with aborting based on genetic disorders,late term,gender.
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  #78  
November 12th, 2012, 08:14 AM
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I believe that the reason why a woman aborts is not relevant. Instead, we should emphasise the importance of freedom, and the need for women to be trusted to make their own decisions about their pregnancy. Restricting when a woman should and should not abort just demonstrates a lack of support for the idea of choice in principle.
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  #79  
April 5th, 2013, 12:32 PM
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Honestly, I think this is the worst reason to have an abortion that I have ever heard.
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