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Abortion Debate

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  #1  
December 16th, 2009, 09:41 AM
(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.)
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Quote:
Unable to get an abortion during a tour of duty in Iraq, a soldier is left with no option but to do it herself—a humiliating but not uncommon dilemma. Women in the military are forced to obtain a leave to get the care they need; but if they’re honest about why, they put their military career in jeopardy. If they’re not, they put their military career in jeopardy.
Quote:
The first sergeant came to her hospital room to announce that Amy would be punished under Article 92 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which addresses violations of general regulations, for having had sex in a war zone.
Quote:
At Amy’s request, she was sent home from Iraq, after a military psychiatrist determined that she was “too psychologically unstable” to remain, and diagnosed her with acute anxiety, PTSD, and depression. “They convinced themselves that anyone who would do a self-abortion is crazy,” Amy says. “It’s not a crazy thing. It’s something that rational, thinking women do when they have no options.”
Alexa Kolbi-Molinas, staff attorney for the ACLU Reproductive Freedom Project, says Amy’s horrifying story is the logical outcome of the longstanding military ban on abortion that affects 200,000 female service members as well as female military spouses and dependents living on military bases covered by the armed forces’ Tricare health coverage. Shocking as the story may be, Kolbi-Molinas says, “If you restrict women to unsafe abortions, this is what will happen.”
Military Women “Do Not Receive the Protection of the Constitution they Defend”
Starting in 1979, Defense Department appropriations bills have been used to restrict or prohibit the use of federal funds—meaning all military health coverage—for abortion services at overseas military hospitals. Although President Clinton reversed the ban shortly after taking office, anti-abortion forces in Congress made the ban permanent in 1995, preventing future presidents from altering the rules by executive order.
What began as a funding ban, compelling women to pay for abortion services themselves, was later extended into a more comprehensive embargo on performing abortions in any military hospital except in cases of rape, incest, or threat to the life of the mother. Rep. Susan Davis (D-CA), argued that “servicewomen do not receive the protection of the Constitution they defend,” and tried unsuccessfully in 2005 and 2006 to repeal the ban—or at least to bring it in line with current Medicaid standards by allowing abortion funding in rape and incest cases. Opponents like Kansas Republican Jim Ryan postured in response claiming that, “allowing self-funded abortions would simply turn our military hospitals overseas into abortion clinics.”
In fact, before Roe v. Wade the situation was reversed: servicewomen were pressured into having abortions due to a military policy of automatically discharging pregnant women. That policy ended with Crawford v. Cushman, a 1976 US Appeals Court case ruling that the discharge rule violated due process.
Military Abortion Ban: Female Soldiers Not Protected by Constitution They Defend | Human Rights/Immigration | ReligionDispatches

Your thoughts?
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  #2  
December 16th, 2009, 10:08 AM
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"Fearful of the advice of a sympathetic female officer who suggested that Amy might be charged for the abortion as well (she wasn’t), she flushed the fetus down the toilet." The vision of that sickened me beyond belief.

WOW!!

IMO she knew not to have sex in a war zone. It is clearly stated and she knew the rule, so yes she should be punished for violating that.
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  #3  
December 16th, 2009, 10:10 AM
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Not surprising that I don't see anything about her partner being charged for the same crime. Just sayin....
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  #4  
December 16th, 2009, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by StaceyC View Post
Not surprising that I don't see anything about her partner being charged for the same crime. Just sayin....
Ditto this.
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  #5  
December 16th, 2009, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by ShellaMarie View Post
IMO she knew not to have sex in a war zone. It is clearly stated and she knew the rule, so yes she should be punished for violating that.
Men have sex in war zones but there is a double standard because women can get pregnant as proof where men can't. I don't understand wanting her punished. As what she went through wasn't punishment enough?
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  #6  
December 16th, 2009, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by (.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.) View Post
Men have sex in war zones but there is a double standard because women can get pregnant as proof where men can't. I don't understand wanting her punished. As what she went through wasn't punishment enough?
She did that to herself. My husband used to be in the military and boy the rules they have, and yes it seemed unfair to me because I'am a woman. What she did was wrong both the sex and the self-inflicted abortion.
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  #7  
December 16th, 2009, 12:06 PM
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I call BS on the "rape" she would have been able to recieve proper medical attention if she was in fact raped and it had resulted in a pregnancy. I honestly believeit was a cop out because it's totally irrelevant since she still never pursued it after being caught pregnant! She knew the rules and should have been punished, period! Although, I also don't see any equal punishment for the father, which should have been given!
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  #8  
December 16th, 2009, 12:36 PM
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Have you seen any of the stories of the things that have happened to women who have reported being raped in the military, specifically in a combat zone? Who are they going to report their rapes to in the middle of a combat zone? How are they supposed to feel safe to report their rapes? A pentagon report recently revealed that one in three women, in the military, will be sexually assaulted during the course of her enlistment.

Google "Rape in the Ranks: The Enemy Within".

The military is a boy's club. For the most part, women that are granted admittance are expected to shut up and color and not make any waves. Those that try to rock the boat will, most often, face the consequences and be put back in your place.

Rep. Jane Harman (D-CA) wrote a piece a few months back for the LA Times where she stated, "We have an epidemic here. Women serving in the U.S. military today are more likely to be raped by a fellow soldier than killed by enemy fire in Iraq."

Quote:
"He raped you," asks Kroft.

"Yes," says Dyer.

"Is there any way he could have misinterpreted your intentions?" asks Kroft.

"I don't feel it's possible to misinterpret, 'No, don’t do this. Or stop.' Those are the words that I used again and again,” says Dyer.

Dyer says she reported the rape "within 10 to 15 minutes," and after she was taken to the emergency room to be examined, she was then sequestered for three days without access to a telephone.

She says her story was greeted with disbelief by military investigators and indifference from her command, which gave her only a two-week convalescent leave, then refused to extend it.

"They stated that two weeks was enough time to recover from such an incident," says Dyer. "I was told that if I didn't return on time, they would send MPs to my door and have me arrested."
Quote:
"Three out of every 100 military women say that they were sexually assaulted. That compares to – the equivalent civilian rate for women that age – it’s about 3 in a thousand," says Berkowitz. "So if the defense department numbers are right, the problem in the military could be as much as 10 times the civilian problem."
Quote:
Often, the cases are hard to prove. And in a military culture still dominated by men, the decision on whether or not to prosecute almost always rests with the male commander.

Berkowitz says that the chances of actually going to prison, if you're accused of rape in the military, is "pretty slim."
Quote:
Sharon Mixon was a staff sergeant, and a highly decorated combat medic during Operation Desert Storm. She was in Saudi Arabia, and about to come home, when she says she was drugged and gang-raped.

"I woke up face down on a cot. I was being held down. And there were six men taking turns raping me," recalls Mixon. "They were U.S. soldiers, and they told me that if I told anybody that they would kill me. But I went and told the MPs anyway. And they told me the same thing."

"They kind of laughed and said, 'Well, what did you expect, being a female in combat? And we will always know where to find you. And if you open your mouth, you know what’s gonna happen,'” adds Mixon, who kept quiet for more than 10 years.

Mixon continued her military career until she said she began having flashbacks and was hospitalized for post-traumatic stress disorder. She has actively lobbied Congress on behalf of military rape victims.
Quote:
"They want to brush it under a rug. They want it to go away," says Marine Lt. Tara Burkhart, who comes from a military family. She was serving with distinction as a public affairs officer in Kuwait during Operation Iraqi Freedom, escorting reporters in and out of the combat zone. She and several enlisted men from her unit were invited to a party thrown by Kuwaiti nationals to thank them for all they had done.

"During the course of that evening, the sergeant who was under my command raped me," says Burkhart, who didn't initially report it. "I was afraid. I had seen what other people had gone through when they had tried to report sexual assault or rape."

She didn’t say anything, until allegations surfaced that she and her men had violated orders by drinking at the party, and that she had sex with a subordinate.

"I got my attorney. And he immediately contacted the command," says Burkhart. "'This is crazy, my client was raped.' And my command said, 'No, she’s lying. We don’t believe her. You shouldn’t either. And we’re gonna prosecute her. She’s gonna go to a court-martial.'”

Lt. Burkhart was charged with 19 counts, including sexual misconduct, providing alcohol to enlisted men, making false statements and disobeying orders – charges that could have sent her to prison for 26 years.

The soldier who Burkhart says raped her was later accused in another rape. "He was accused during my investigation," says Burkhart. "The other victim came out and claimed that he raped her in Kuwait, too."

Burkhart says the soldier was never prosecuted: "There has never been any charges brought against him. He was given a grant immunity to testify against me."

Burkhart was eventually acquitted of the most serious charges, including sexual misconduct, but served 30 days for violating alcohol policies and disobeying orders.

As for her career, Burkhart says, "It's over. It's over."
Army Rape Accuser Speaks Out - 60 Minutes - CBS News
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  #9  
December 16th, 2009, 12:47 PM
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I'm not sure if you are talking to me personally by asking If I saw any stories.

But, I was married to a Marine stationed in Camp Lejeune and oddly am with a great man now who was also a Marine. I know LOTS of things that go on first hand not limited to Rape or Abortions. That doesn't change the fact this woman still never, atleast, in that story did it mention after it all came out did she try to get the man who raped her for the rape. If after it was all said and done, she had lost the baby, was sent home, and lost rank. Why would she STILL be embarrassed to call out the man who raped her, when she basically said those were her only fears. I am sorry but after reading this ONE story I truely believe she used the rape as a good thing to say to make her look not so evil. That is my personal opinion.
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  #10  
December 16th, 2009, 01:04 PM
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But just because she claimed it afterwards doesn't make it any less true. I was raped when I was young and a teen, but I haven't claimed it to anybody except online and my husband because I don't want the people surround me and this man giving me the victim pity that I have seen from these people, but that is just ME. Not everybody wants to come forward about it.
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  #11  
December 16th, 2009, 01:18 PM
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So she is evil for having an abortion and a rape liar.. well, I'm really sorry to read that. It's no wonder why rape victims don't come out and why women feel so much shame about abortion loss.

Just wondering to both Sheila and Amy if you support women in the military in general
?
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  #12  
December 16th, 2009, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ms.amy View Post
I'm not sure if you are talking to me personally by asking If I saw any stories.

But, I was married to a Marine stationed in Camp Lejeune and oddly am with a great man now who was also a Marine. I know LOTS of things that go on first hand not limited to Rape or Abortions. That doesn't change the fact this woman still never, atleast, in that story did it mention after it all came out did she try to get the man who raped her for the rape. If after it was all said and done, she had lost the baby, was sent home, and lost rank. Why would she STILL be embarrassed to call out the man who raped her, when she basically said those were her only fears. I am sorry but after reading this ONE story I truely believe she used the rape as a good thing to say to make her look not so evil. That is my personal opinion.
I am an Air Force veteran. Not only that, I worked as an air traffic contoller in the military, which is a majorly male dominated career field (it was not too terribly long ago, actually, that women were not permitted in the career field). I assure you, your marriage to a marine doesn't give you a fraction of the insight to the sexism that permissibly runs rampant in the military.
If someone in your unit/squadron/company rapes you, it would be VERY difficult and intimidating, in and of itself, to report because you still have to work with that person(s). Add to that fear, the high potential that threats and intimidation are involved, not only from the attacker but from other coworkers, as well as the individuals you report your attack to and you have your answer.
Again, watch the movie I mentioned in my pp.

ONE IN THREE WOMEN ARE RAPED IN THE MILITARY!!
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  #13  
December 16th, 2009, 01:50 PM
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I support a woman with whatever she wants to do, military, abortion, gay, I don't care. Her body, her life, her decision.

I didn't say I personally thought she was evil but I'm sure she would think others would consider her being evil to harm herself by taking pills and trying to self abort leaving herself to hemmorage. Not to mention flushing the fetus down the toilet, who even knew how far along she was? Would that make a difference? What is she was 18 weeks or farther? Those are evil things to do to yourself or anyone else.

Maybe I could be sympathetic and say okay she was raped. I was molested as a young child by my uncle! I was scared, and the pit of my stomach dropped everytime I saw him or to this day see him! I was naive and young, I didn't tell anyone because I was scared, I was a small child who thought nothing would be done and he would just know I told. I later told my mom and nothing was done except for the why didn't you tell us earlier bit after he divorced my aunt I told her.

I am a woman now, and if I joined the Military I would know the law and the rules are enforced strictly. I don't care if you are a woman or a man. I think that both parties should have been punished. She knew the rules, and this is the EXACT reason it's the law to NOT have sex in a WAR zone?!? Why should the government have to pay for you to break the law and pay for the abortion? I think after everything came out she should have stood up for all the woman who have been raped and voice what happened, especially NOW that her story makes headlines worldwide.

I think she had every opprotunity to point out the father so he has a reputation as equal as she does. She had the chance for woman future and past to read her story and if they ever became raped read that there would be justification for the man too. Why would she still hide that she was raped and break a rape story into a small one line saying it was not violent, ect? Rape is violent mentally, it is hurtful, demeaning, sad, and changes you.
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  #14  
December 16th, 2009, 02:01 PM
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I am also talking about this ONE particular story. I did not ever disagree with the fact of one out of every three woman get raped in the military I am ONLY talking about this one story and the details it gave. If I were to read other stories on the same woman maybe it would influence my thought and I would suggest she was in fact raped. This is my Jury type of opinion, I read the information and gave my opinion on the ONE story.

And the fact you have to work with the man everyday, she will possibly have to see this man now and if she does he knows what he just read. Do you think just because she doesn't mention him in a headline breaking story that he isn't gunna call this woman names and claim she is a liar to all of his friends?

I saw she also suffered PTSD among other issues, were these from the war zone or the fact she had to self abort from not reporting what happened to the authorities? What would your thoughts be if she filed a claim with the V.A. and was now recieve benefits for the rest of her life from the fact she was suffering from PTSD from what she failed to report because it was military related?
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  #15  
December 16th, 2009, 02:05 PM
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I support women in the military but being a victim of rape when I was 10 year old I know first hand the kind of physical and emotional trauma from it. It took me 3 months to come clean only because he threatened to put harm on my family if I did so. Yes it is very scary to come clean about an accuser for fear he might try to hurt you or your "embarrassed."

It sounds like to me that she was just pulling the rape card so she wouldn't feel as bad about self-inflicting an abortion on herself, so people wouldn't be as quick to judge her.

One and three women are raped in the military same standards apply to women in the civilian world as well.
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  #16  
December 16th, 2009, 02:17 PM
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P.S. Just another question if a Marine in a War Zone was going to rape a woman why would he particularly rape a woman who had the possibility of telling on him possibly giving him the chance of being NJP'd, why would he not shoose to rape a Iraq woman who could not speak english?

I have given this story to my Boyfriend and he simply told me a storyhe witnessed personally about a woman who was considered there (in Iraq) to be easy. She would have sex with multiple men on several occasions telling them she was happy just to feel wanted by a man of such honor. She was later caught and she claimed being raped. The man/men was sent to the brig (jail) and she suffered no ill consequences. Although many men had had sex with her before and even after they were not willing to admit it fearing they too would be caught. Even hearing the woman openly admit she was never raped......

Also if you are raped you report it to your chain of command and no one can say anything because it is confidencial. She would have been sent home or even flown to Germany on Medical and sent her back if she wanted.
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Last edited by ms.amy; December 16th, 2009 at 02:23 PM.
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  #17  
December 16th, 2009, 02:18 PM
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No, the incidence of rape in the military is estimated to be TEN TIMES higher than the civilian world. It is also believed that that is a modest estimate.

Anyone that thinks that reporting rape, in general, is an easy thing to do is naive and anyone that thinks it is any easier in the military has no knowledge of the social dynamics of the military.


Quote:
The Pentagon said it received 2,923 reports of sexual assault across the military in the 12 months ending Sept. 30 2008. That's about a 9 percent increase over the totals reported the year before, but only a fraction of the crimes presumably being committed.
Quote:
The most recent figures, which include cases left open from previous years, show that only 317 cases were referred for courts-martial, or military trials. Another 247 were referred for nonjudicial punishment.
t r u t h o u t | Military Rape Reports Rise, Prosecution Still Low

Quote:
Having the courage to report a rape is difficult enough for civilians, where unsympathetic police, victim-blaming myths, and simple fear prevent 59 percent of rapes from being reported, according to the U.S. Bureau of Justice. But within the military, reporting is even more risky. Military platoons are enclosed, hierarchical societies, riddled with gossip, so any woman who reports a rape has no realistic chance of remaining anonymous. She will have to face her assailant day after day, and put up with rumors, resentment and blame from other soldiers. Furthermore, she runs the risk of being punished by her assailant if he is her superior.
The private war of women soldiers - Salon.com
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  #18  
December 16th, 2009, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ms.amy View Post
P.S. Just another question if a Marine in a War Zone was going to rape a woman why would he particularly rape a woman who had the possibility of telling on him possibly giving him the chance of being NJP'd, why would he not shoose to rape a Iraq woman who could not speak english? I have given this story to my Boyfriend and he simply told me a story about a woman who was considered there (in Iraq) to be easy. She would have sex with multiple men on several occasions telling them she was happy just to fell wanted by a man of such honor. She was later caught and she claimed being raped. The man was sent to the brig (jail) and she suffered no ill consequences. Although many men had had sex with her before and even after they were not willing to admit it fearing they too would be caught. Even hearing the woman openly admit she was never raped......

Also if you are raped you report it to your chain of command and no one can say anything because it is confidencial. She would have been sent home on Medical.
Just because a man accussed of rape claimed that the woman was easy, a *****, etc doesn't automatically mean it is true. Just because a woman was not a virgin does not mean that she cannot be raped.

To the last part: rape reporting in the military has NOT been anonymous, until very recently when the DoD had an epiphany that it might encourage women to report rape. HOWEVER, if you look at the website, it is NOT anonymous because it still requires that the reporting person provide their name, rank, age, branch of service, race, date and time/location of the alleged assault. The DoD website also suggests that women report rape to a chaplain, personnel who are not trained in rape counseling. If a soldier confides in another soldier about the rape, that friend is legally obligated to report the assault.

Those that report their assaults are seen as traitors. They are threatened, ostracized and verbally/emotionally abused/intimidated.
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  #19  
December 16th, 2009, 02:43 PM
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I still believe she claimed rape to turn what would have been a illegal iraq sex story into a rape story to make what she did seem logical and until I get moreinformation about this story this is my opinion.
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  #20  
December 16th, 2009, 06:01 PM
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I'm curious, I have seen here that one in three women in the military is sexually assaulted and one in three women is raped. While I am not making any argument that either one is okay, I am still curious. They are not always the same thing.
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