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For pro-choicers: When should it be too late to have an abortion?


Abortion Debate

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  #1  
January 12th, 2010, 04:59 PM
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Okay, since everyone is getting annoyed with me in the "Men's Reproductive Rights" thread, I decided to move my arguments over here (because they're just bursting out of me ). I don't even have any specific title for this thread, since this is really just a loose collection of arguments carried over from the other one.

The more I think about it -- this whole "a fetus is just a potential person" thing -- I am really convinced that this is just something people tell themselves because it is INCONVENIENT for a fetus to be a person. But Mother Nature has never specialized in convenience, sadly.

What does it mean to be a "potential person"? An 18-year-old is a potential 19-year-old. A 17-year-old is a potential 18-year-old. etc. But we don't think about them this way, because these transitions are not especially significant for us.

What is so significant about the transition from womb to outside of the womb? What makes it not okay for an infant to be killed once it is outside of the womb, but fine for a fetus to be destroyed just a few hours or minutes or days before? As I have posted before in other threads, for you pro-choicers out there, WHAT moment, precisely, would you be willing to say that a fetus has finally entered the 'safe zone'? Is it when active labor has started? Or earlier than that, when the mom is having Braxton-Hicks contractions but isn't yet in active labor? Is it when the mom is finally dilated? When the baby is in the birth canal? When the head has emerged, but not yet the body? ALL of this is grey, as biology meant it to be. Please tell me WHEN it is too late to have an abortion. I don't know how you can possibly determine this moment.

On the other hand, the moment of conception is very clearcut. At the moment of conception, brand-new, never-before-seen human DNA is created. At the 'moment' of birth (if there is such a moment), no such DNA is created; all that happens is that the DNA moves locations.

Okay, now I guess I do have a title for this thread after all.
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  #2  
January 12th, 2010, 07:57 PM
(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.)
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I haven't read the other thread that inspired this one so I hope my answer does focus on what you're looking for. I do understand why you want to hold your position that just is not an acceptable time to ever have an abortion. In our arm chairs, it's really easy to have that position. I can't tell another woman when the time limit is but I also look at this very differently that I can't have the position.

The reason why the transition from womb to outside of womb is so significant is that even in wanted childbirth, not all babies live. The whole concept of living inside someone else means that being is still dependent on the body it's growing within. Living inside a mother is no guarantee of life. It's not that is about convenience on the semantics of the label "baby" or "fetus" but it's the reality that being may not ever get to live outside it's mom.

Last edited by (.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.); January 12th, 2010 at 08:53 PM.
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  #3  
January 12th, 2010, 08:34 PM
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I'm guessing this is addressed at me and you want me to give you a gestational age. After 13 weeks, I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of abortion unless there is a clear medical reason for it. If I'm going to get on my high horse, I would say all medically unnecessary abortions should occur before 10 weeks (still an embryo at this point), and the majority of them do.

And just for the record, I am not pro-abortion, which so many people seem to think those who are pro-choice are. I actually wish there was never a need for any. But if I want to maintain the right to my own autonomy, that means I need to fight for every woman's right, regardless of my personal feelings on the issue of abortion.
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  #4  
January 12th, 2010, 08:42 PM
irishxrose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jess is Write View Post
I'm guessing this is addressed at me and you want me to give you a gestational age. After 13 weeks, I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of abortion unless there is a clear medical reason for it. If I'm going to get on my high horse, I would say all medically unnecessary abortions should occur before 10 weeks (still an embryo at this point), and the majority of them do.

And just for the record, I am not pro-abortion, which so many people seem to think those who are pro-choice are. I actually wish there was never a need for any. But if I want to maintain the right to my own autonomy, that means I need to fight for every woman's right, regardless of my personal feelings on the issue of abortion.
to this and Michelle, exactly.
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  #5  
January 12th, 2010, 09:01 PM
lilflower
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I personally now would say that it should be before 8 weeks. But that is unrealistic. Some people don't even find out until they are WAY further along. I actually have a picture of the little baby girl I miscarried in January of last year at 10 weeks. You would never IMAGINE exactly what she looked like! She just looked like a miniature newborn, but red.

That being said. I'm pro-choice because there are reasons it needs to be legal and the effects of it being illegal would be detrimental. I'm sure it sounded in the other thread that I'm just pro-abortion, but I'm not. I wouldn't have an abortion for any reason...but it is legal and I'm happy it is.
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  #6  
January 12th, 2010, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by lilflower View Post
I personally now would say that it should be before 8 weeks. But that is unrealistic. Some people don't even find out until they are WAY further along. I actually have a picture of the little baby girl I miscarried in January of last year at 10 weeks. You would never IMAGINE exactly what she looked like! She just looked like a miniature newborn, but red.

That being said. I'm pro-choice because there are reasons it needs to be legal and the effects of it being illegal would be detrimental. I'm sure it sounded in the other thread that I'm just pro-abortion, but I'm not. I wouldn't have an abortion for any reason...but it is legal and I'm happy it is.
This is just me being nosey, and you don't have to answer if I'm out of line, but how did you know it was a girl? I know external genitalia isn't formed until around the 12th week, and I've always wondered when I see a sex given for an early loss if the mom just goes with her gut feeling of what the baby was...?
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  #7  
January 12th, 2010, 09:25 PM
lilflower
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Originally Posted by Jess is Write View Post
This is just me being nosey, and you don't have to answer if I'm out of line, but how did you know it was a girl? I know external genitalia isn't formed until around the 12th week, and I've always wondered when I see a sex given for an early loss if the mom just goes with her gut feeling of what the baby was...?
No nosey-ness at all. Since it was my 5th first trimester loss and my third loss (including my son who was stillborn) in a year, I had to bring the baby and all expelled tissue in to have genetic testing. I was told that she was female and had Trisomy 18 and should abstain from having any more children. But I couldn't see any sex organs and honestly assumed it was a boy until they told me otherwise.
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  #8  
January 13th, 2010, 05:12 AM
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I don't have an answer to when it is too late to have an abortion - I believe that is between a woman and her doctor. As others stated, I wish there didn't have to be abortions, but I would never want to see the law be overturned because of the ramifications. Me being pro-choice is about women's reproductive health rights.
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  #9  
January 13th, 2010, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jess is Write View Post
I'm guessing this is addressed at me and you want me to give you a gestational age. After 13 weeks, I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of abortion unless there is a clear medical reason for it. If I'm going to get on my high horse, I would say all medically unnecessary abortions should occur before 10 weeks (still an embryo at this point), and the majority of them do.

And just for the record, I am not pro-abortion, which so many people seem to think those who are pro-choice are. I actually wish there was never a need for any. But if I want to maintain the right to my own autonomy, that means I need to fight for every woman's right, regardless of my personal feelings on the issue of abortion.
Ditto.

I think abortions are horrible and would never ever have one. But I am not other people, I have not walked a day in someone elses shoes. Who am I to say that what is horrible for me isn't a godsend to someone else? Sickening as it is, I believe there is a societal need for them at this point. I think the only way to eliminate abortions is to eliminate the need for them. Just outlawing them or removing the choice will get us no where. People who "need" them, will still find them.
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  #10  
January 13th, 2010, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Lilmom View Post
Ditto.

I think abortions are horrible and would never ever have one. But I am not other people, I have not walked a day in someone elses shoes. Who am I to say that what is horrible for me isn't a godsend to someone else? Sickening as it is, I believe there is a societal need for them at this point. I think the only way to eliminate abortions is to eliminate the need for them. Just outlawing them or removing the choice will get us no where. People who "need" them, will still find them.
I actually agree with the bolded. I do think that birth control should be easily and freely accessible to anyone who wants it.
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  #11  
January 13th, 2010, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jess is Write View Post
I'm guessing this is addressed at me and you want me to give you a gestational age. After 13 weeks, I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of abortion unless there is a clear medical reason for it. If I'm going to get on my high horse, I would say all medically unnecessary abortions should occur before 10 weeks (still an embryo at this point), and the majority of them do.

And just for the record, I am not pro-abortion, which so many people seem to think those who are pro-choice are. I actually wish there was never a need for any. But if I want to maintain the right to my own autonomy, that means I need to fight for every woman's right, regardless of my personal feelings on the issue of abortion.
Ditto, and thank you Jess for wording it so eloquently! I'd've just messed it all up, so I'm copy-pasting yours
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