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View Poll Results: Pro-Choice or Pro-Life?
Pro-Choice 92 51.11%
Pro-Life 77 42.78%
Other (please explain) 11 6.11%
Voters: 180. You may not vote on this poll

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  #61  
May 30th, 2010, 09:31 AM
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I'm pro life

In the majority of cases the mother made a choice to have sex, no birth control is 100% so we go into having sex knowing that a baby can be created. So I believe that the fetus should have rights too.
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  #62  
May 30th, 2010, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Ann_momof2 View Post
I'm pro life

In the majority of cases the mother made a choice to have sex, no birth control is 100% so we go into having sex knowing that a baby can be created. So I believe that the fetus should have rights too.
Some of the mothers that choose abortion want the child to rights to things like stability, a father, choices she didn't have, etc. which is why the mother chooses abortion in the first place. The mother isn't necessarily making a choice that isn't in the best interest of the fetus.
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  #63  
May 30th, 2010, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by (.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.) View Post
Some of the mothers that choose abortion want the child to rights to things like stability, a father, choices she didn't have, etc. which is why the mother chooses abortion in the first place. The mother isn't necessarily making a choice that isn't in the best interest of the fetus.
So they think that death/or not living is in the best interest of the fetus vs not having a father/stability etc. I would wonder if the same mother had another baby and gave birth was married stable etc, would she then think it would be better to kill said infant if they divorced/and no longer had any money.
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  #64  
May 30th, 2010, 05:33 PM
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Ugh. Why does the "would you kill an infant?" question get thrown out there all the time? It's so irritating and not even a little bit relevant. A cluster of cells that has the potential to eventually become an infant is NOT an infant.
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  #65  
May 30th, 2010, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Jess is Write View Post
Ugh. Why does the "would you kill an infant?" question get thrown out there all the time? It's so irritating and not even a little bit relevant. A cluster of cells that has the potential to eventually become an infant is NOT an infant.
Apparently to some people it is. a baby is a baby, a child is a child. *shrug* Though it's not an especially tactful argument.
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  #66  
May 30th, 2010, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Jess is Write View Post
Ugh. Why does the "would you kill an infant?" question get thrown out there all the time? It's so irritating and not even a little bit relevant. A cluster of cells that has the potential to eventually become an infant is NOT an infant.
But isn't that the whole issue with this debate, some believe it's a cluster of cells and others believe that it's a human life.
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  #67  
May 30th, 2010, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Ann_momof2 View Post
But isn't that the whole issue with this debate, some believe it's a cluster of cells and others believe that it's a human life.
It's not an intellectually honest argument. Just because YOU believe a zygote is the equivalent of a living, breathing human infant, it isn't. That's just not reality. And it is EXTREMELY offensive to suggest anyone who is pro-choice must condone infanticide. They're not the same thing scientifically or legally. When people throw around emotionally charged words like "death," "murder" and "baby" they're beyond having a logical discussion with.
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  #68  
May 30th, 2010, 08:05 PM
(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.)
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Originally Posted by Ann_momof2 View Post
So they think that death/or not living is in the best interest of the fetus vs not having a father/stability etc. I would wonder if the same mother had another baby and gave birth was married stable etc, would she then think it would be better to kill said infant if they divorced/and no longer had any money.
If there is a good thing about abortion, it's that the death happened before it's born, the majority of the time before 8 weeks. You may feel a 6 week old fetus is equal but women who choose abortion do not. The whole point of making that choice before the baby is born is to avoid what you're suggesting.
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  #69  
May 31st, 2010, 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Keskes View Post
Apparently to some people it is. a baby is a baby, a child is a child. *shrug* Though it's not an especially tactful argument.
(this is not directed at you Kes - but directed at the concept)
Not only is it not tactful - it isn't intellectually honest. I do fall on the side of believing that ALL life has value & merit & it all deserves respect. But saying a baby is a baby isn't totally honest. I had a lot of miscarriages (7 to be exact - one with twins) and it has been one of the hardest things of course I have ever dealt with. I would still take another mc in a heartbeat over loosing Jonah or Isaac. I know that sounds terrible...but it's honest. Not only that, but I can promise you - no one ever treated me like I lost a child. Not really. Some people were very nice & very understanding & supportive....but then they would forget...completely. Even my own mother who vehemently claims every baby is a baby couldn't understand why I didn't feel like coming to her house along with all my siblings & their families for mother's day. I told her I was going to stay home to work in my garden (the only garden I had at that time was a memorial garden for my angels) because today was going to be hard for me (this was before I had my boys) and she said "why?". Why? really... If I had a baby that had been born that year & died would she ask why? If I had even had a stillbirth rather than a mc would she ask why? I doubt it. Another time I had my brother call me last minute needing a baby sitter so he could take his wife out for her birthday (sitter cancelled). It was on one of my due dates. I tried to deflect (knowing most people don't understand or respect why those days are so hard) but he was persistant - so I finally decided to just tell him why...and STILL he persisted in trying toget me to watch his children so they could go. It wasn't just frustrating - it was so painful to know that others didn't value that loss of life at all. Instead I got responses like "and..." People constantly acted like "sorry for your luck" more than "sorry for your loss". The only people who got it really were the women on JM at the support boards for loss. So people can say all they want that they view all life the same & that it all has equal value to them, but clearly it doesn't. If I were to call someone today to tell them one of my boys passed, they would likely cry on the phone with me. When I had to call people to tell them I had amc, I often responses like "Oh hun I am so sorry. Anyway, like I was telling you..blah, blah, blah". I even went to church one year with my mom for mother's day (again before I had my boys). They had all the moms stand & honored them, etc. Then they went on to honor all those lost to abortion that year...blah blah blah... Not once did they think to mention all the moms of angels who might be having a particularly hard day today.... Needless to say I didn't go back the following year. I have long since dismissed the argument that ALL life is valued the same. Heck all grief isn't even valued the same.

I am not trying to take some superiority stance here for having gone through what I have gone through - I am simply offering insight that others may not have. If all life is valued the same, then you would think I wouldn't have felt so absolutely blown off ALL the time while going through the worst of it. You would think every "right to life" person in my life (of which there are many) would have been devastated for me & had the time & energy to listen to me cry & offer support & love. You would think I might even get a sympathy card or two... I got one sympathy card. It was from a very pro-choice coworker & that was after my second loss. I also got flowers once from my mom, but i think that was to make-up with me as much as anything because for that loss she found out through one of my sisters because I hadn't confided in anyone else because I was so tired of not feeling like they cared I felt it was better not to tell. I guess I just don't buy that argument based on what I have seen.
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We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters. ~Gloria Steinem

If a man has been his mother's undisputed darling he retains throughout life the triumphant feeling, the confidence in success, which not seldom brings actual success along with it. ~Sigmund Freud
My mom is a neverending song in my heart of comfort, happiness, and being. I may sometimes forget the words but I always remember the tune. ~Graycie Harmon
Don't wait to make your son a great man - make him a great boy. ~Author Unknown
You don't raise heroes, you raise sons. And if you treat them like sons, they'll turn out to be heroes, even if it's just in your own eyes. ~Walter M. Schirra, Sr.
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Mother's love is peace. It need not be acquired, it need not be deserved. ~Erich Fromm
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it. - Harold Hulbert
Mother is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children. ~William Makepeace Thackeray
God could not be everywhere, so he created mothers. ~Jewish Proverb
The best conversations with mothers always take place in silence, when only the heart speaks. ~Carrie Latet




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  #70  
May 31st, 2010, 10:51 AM
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*shrug* I have a hard time with abortion arguments, because it always seems to come down to Science vs. God and I'm never sure which I should side with. Because I do think the fetus is a "baby," but I don't think abortion is equal to infanticide. I definitely think a mother who's experienced a miscarriage deserves just as much sympathy and positive energy/prayer sent her way as a mother who lost a living (born) child.
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  #71  
May 31st, 2010, 10:58 AM
Mom of 2 boys!
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I was pro-choice when I was young and before I knew anything about pregnancy/babies. Now I am pro-life...as soon as I was TTC #1 , I became pro-life.....
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  #72  
May 31st, 2010, 11:45 AM
(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.)
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Originally Posted by beck12 View Post
(this is not directed at you Kes - but directed at the concept)
Not only is it not tactful - it isn't intellectually honest. I do fall on the side of believing that ALL life has value & merit & it all deserves respect. But saying a baby is a baby isn't totally honest. I had a lot of miscarriages (7 to be exact - one with twins) and it has been one of the hardest things of course I have ever dealt with. I would still take another mc in a heartbeat over loosing Jonah or Isaac. I know that sounds terrible...but it's honest. Not only that, but I can promise you - no one ever treated me like I lost a child. Not really. Some people were very nice & very understanding & supportive....but then they would forget...completely. Even my own mother who vehemently claims every baby is a baby couldn't understand why I didn't feel like coming to her house along with all my siblings & their families for mother's day. I told her I was going to stay home to work in my garden (the only garden I had at that time was a memorial garden for my angels) because today was going to be hard for me (this was before I had my boys) and she said "why?". Why? really... If I had a baby that had been born that year & died would she ask why? If I had even had a stillbirth rather than a mc would she ask why? I doubt it. Another time I had my brother call me last minute needing a baby sitter so he could take his wife out for her birthday (sitter cancelled). It was on one of my due dates. I tried to deflect (knowing most people don't understand or respect why those days are so hard) but he was persistant - so I finally decided to just tell him why...and STILL he persisted in trying toget me to watch his children so they could go. It wasn't just frustrating - it was so painful to know that others didn't value that loss of life at all. Instead I got responses like "and..." People constantly acted like "sorry for your luck" more than "sorry for your loss". The only people who got it really were the women on JM at the support boards for loss. So people can say all they want that they view all life the same & that it all has equal value to them, but clearly it doesn't. If I were to call someone today to tell them one of my boys passed, they would likely cry on the phone with me. When I had to call people to tell them I had amc, I often responses like "Oh hun I am so sorry. Anyway, like I was telling you..blah, blah, blah". I even went to church one year with my mom for mother's day (again before I had my boys). They had all the moms stand & honored them, etc. Then they went on to honor all those lost to abortion that year...blah blah blah... Not once did they think to mention all the moms of angels who might be having a particularly hard day today.... Needless to say I didn't go back the following year. I have long since dismissed the argument that ALL life is valued the same. Heck all grief isn't even valued the same.

I am not trying to take some superiority stance here for having gone through what I have gone through - I am simply offering insight that others may not have. If all life is valued the same, then you would think I wouldn't have felt so absolutely blown off ALL the time while going through the worst of it. You would think every "right to life" person in my life (of which there are many) would have been devastated for me & had the time & energy to listen to me cry & offer support & love. You would think I might even get a sympathy card or two... I got one sympathy card. It was from a very pro-choice coworker & that was after my second loss. I also got flowers once from my mom, but i think that was to make-up with me as much as anything because for that loss she found out through one of my sisters because I hadn't confided in anyone else because I was so tired of not feeling like they cared I felt it was better not to tell. I guess I just don't buy that argument based on what I have seen.
When added to the abortion debate, adds to the point fetuses aren't as valued as children in thee most profound way.
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  #73  
May 31st, 2010, 04:57 PM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Denver metro area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beck12 View Post
(this is not directed at you Kes - but directed at the concept)
Not only is it not tactful - it isn't intellectually honest. I do fall on the side of believing that ALL life has value & merit & it all deserves respect. But saying a baby is a baby isn't totally honest. I had a lot of miscarriages (7 to be exact - one with twins) and it has been one of the hardest things of course I have ever dealt with. I would still take another mc in a heartbeat over loosing Jonah or Isaac. I know that sounds terrible...but it's honest. Not only that, but I can promise you - no one ever treated me like I lost a child. Not really. Some people were very nice & very understanding & supportive....but then they would forget...completely. Even my own mother who vehemently claims every baby is a baby couldn't understand why I didn't feel like coming to her house along with all my siblings & their families for mother's day. I told her I was going to stay home to work in my garden (the only garden I had at that time was a memorial garden for my angels) because today was going to be hard for me (this was before I had my boys) and she said "why?". Why? really... If I had a baby that had been born that year & died would she ask why? If I had even had a stillbirth rather than a mc would she ask why? I doubt it. Another time I had my brother call me last minute needing a baby sitter so he could take his wife out for her birthday (sitter cancelled). It was on one of my due dates. I tried to deflect (knowing most people don't understand or respect why those days are so hard) but he was persistant - so I finally decided to just tell him why...and STILL he persisted in trying toget me to watch his children so they could go. It wasn't just frustrating - it was so painful to know that others didn't value that loss of life at all. Instead I got responses like "and..." People constantly acted like "sorry for your luck" more than "sorry for your loss". The only people who got it really were the women on JM at the support boards for loss. So people can say all they want that they view all life the same & that it all has equal value to them, but clearly it doesn't. If I were to call someone today to tell them one of my boys passed, they would likely cry on the phone with me. When I had to call people to tell them I had amc, I often responses like "Oh hun I am so sorry. Anyway, like I was telling you..blah, blah, blah". I even went to church one year with my mom for mother's day (again before I had my boys). They had all the moms stand & honored them, etc. Then they went on to honor all those lost to abortion that year...blah blah blah... Not once did they think to mention all the moms of angels who might be having a particularly hard day today.... Needless to say I didn't go back the following year. I have long since dismissed the argument that ALL life is valued the same. Heck all grief isn't even valued the same.

I am not trying to take some superiority stance here for having gone through what I have gone through - I am simply offering insight that others may not have. If all life is valued the same, then you would think I wouldn't have felt so absolutely blown off ALL the time while going through the worst of it. You would think every "right to life" person in my life (of which there are many) would have been devastated for me & had the time & energy to listen to me cry & offer support & love. You would think I might even get a sympathy card or two... I got one sympathy card. It was from a very pro-choice coworker & that was after my second loss. I also got flowers once from my mom, but i think that was to make-up with me as much as anything because for that loss she found out through one of my sisters because I hadn't confided in anyone else because I was so tired of not feeling like they cared I felt it was better not to tell. I guess I just don't buy that argument based on what I have seen.
I am very sorry for your losses and I am very sorry people treated you with such a lack of respect and sympathy. I personally had a different experience but I am not surprised by what you describe. I don't think that indicates that people don't value all life as being the same. I guarantee you people would respond to me differently if I told them that I lost my son vs. my 96 year old grandma. I don't think that means that the life of my son is valued more than the life of my grandma. I know I would grief differently if my child died vs. if my husband died. Differently doesn't mean that I don't value life equally. I didn't grief for my baby that I lost due to miscarriage the same way I grieved for my close friend who was murdered or my aunt although i view all life from conception to natural death to be completely equal.
I do not agree with how people responded to your loss and it sounds like very many people were callous and not very understanding but I don't think it is fair to say that if people don't respond to all death equally or with the same amount of grief they must not value all life equally.
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  #74  
June 1st, 2010, 07:27 AM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
I am very sorry for your losses and I am very sorry people treated you with such a lack of respect and sympathy. I personally had a different experience but I am not surprised by what you describe. I don't think that indicates that people don't value all life as being the same. I guarantee you people would respond to me differently if I told them that I lost my son vs. my 96 year old grandma. I don't think that means that the life of my son is valued more than the life of my grandma. I know I would grief differently if my child died vs. if my husband died. Differently doesn't mean that I don't value life equally. I didn't grief for my baby that I lost due to miscarriage the same way I grieved for my close friend who was murdered or my aunt although i view all life from conception to natural death to be completely equal.
I do not agree with how people responded to your loss and it sounds like very many people were callous and not very understanding but I don't think it is fair to say that if people don't respond to all death equally or with the same amount of grief they must not value all life equally.
I really am glad that you had a different experience. Unfortunately my experience is far from unusual. I spent years on the loss boards & hosted RPL for a couple of years & I would love to say my situation is unique - but it is far from it. From your perspective it may not seem like a lesser valuing of life - but I can't see how it's not. Of course anyone would grieve for their child more than their grandmother. I don't think it is a similar comparison really. I think that is normal. I am not sure your grandfather would feel the same way though. It is also normal to be able to accept the death of the elderly in general as we have the peace of knowing often they have lived a long life & that death comes to us all eventually. When grieving for our children we grieve what they "should" have had. What we should have had with them. No one is saying a "baby is a grandma". People do say a "baby is a baby" which means an unborn baby at any gestation is seen as the same as my 3 month old baby. I just don't think people truly see it that way even when they say they do. I do think of my angel babies as my babies....but I don't think of them as quite the same thing as my living children. That doesn't mean I don't respect their lives however brief they were, it doens't mean that I am "okay" with abortion...it just is what it is...and that is, it is different. I PERSONALLY believe life begins at conception. For that reason I could not do the one thing that would best ensure me to have no further losses which is IVF with PGD...because it would result in embryos that were "imperfect" being discarded & likely a number of them (based on what has happened in my pgs) & how could I not grieve for them like the "imperfect" embryos that grew in my womb, only to pass? So don't get me wrong, I do value all life. I just can't say that it is all the same. I also can't say I have any right to dictate to anyone else what there religious, spiritual, or moral beliefs should be regarding this. What I can say for sure is that when I was hurting the most I wanted validation & respect for MY feelings regarding my losses & if for no other reason it has made me realize that I OWE that same validation & respect to other women for THEIR feelings on it as well. I am sad so many women feel this is the path they want or need to take for whatever reason it may be & I am even more saddened when it in turn causes them such deep pain. I was blessed to have a huge wakeup call that someone close to me divulged they had an abortion while I was going through my losses (due to rape) & they didn't feel they could come to me for help or support for the pain they faced because they felt it would be too painful for me since I was in a position to desperately want a baby & they were in a position to desperately not want theirs. And through talk swith her I realized that her pain is like mine. It is not all that different. It is NOT what she wanted - it was all she felt she could handle. Had I not been confided in in this way I am not sure how much of this I would understand today. I may get blown off for my pain - but she gets judged & chastized for hers. I can share my story in open support groups. She has to tell her story to some anonymous person & then wait for a password to enter a support group so she doesn't get verbally assaulted & told she deserves her pain.
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We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters. ~Gloria Steinem

If a man has been his mother's undisputed darling he retains throughout life the triumphant feeling, the confidence in success, which not seldom brings actual success along with it. ~Sigmund Freud
My mom is a neverending song in my heart of comfort, happiness, and being. I may sometimes forget the words but I always remember the tune. ~Graycie Harmon
Don't wait to make your son a great man - make him a great boy. ~Author Unknown
You don't raise heroes, you raise sons. And if you treat them like sons, they'll turn out to be heroes, even if it's just in your own eyes. ~Walter M. Schirra, Sr.
A man loves his sweetheart the most, his wife the best, but his mother the longest. ~Irish Proverb
Mother's love is peace. It need not be acquired, it need not be deserved. ~Erich Fromm
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it. - Harold Hulbert
Mother is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children. ~William Makepeace Thackeray
God could not be everywhere, so he created mothers. ~Jewish Proverb
The best conversations with mothers always take place in silence, when only the heart speaks. ~Carrie Latet




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  #75  
June 1st, 2010, 11:13 AM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beck12 View Post
From your perspective it may not seem like a lesser valuing of life - but I can't see how it's not. Of course anyone would grieve for their child more than their grandmother. I don't think it is a similar comparison really. I think that is normal. I am not sure your grandfather would feel the same way though. It is also normal to be able to accept the death of the elderly in general as we have the peace of knowing often they have lived a long life & that death comes to us all eventually. When grieving for our children we grieve what they "should" have had. What we should have had with them. No one is saying a "baby is a grandma". People do say a "baby is a baby" which means an unborn baby at any gestation is seen as the same as my 3 month old baby. I just don't think people truly see it that way even when they say they do..

But it seems to me like you are comparing how people grieve or how people expect others to grieve with the value of the life. My point about the baby and grandma was that I believe the VALUE of both lives are 100% equal but I would not grieve the same way. People say a baby is a baby but that doesn't mean that people should feel the same amount of grief. Grief is not based on the value we place on a life but rather the level of bond with have with that person, the amount we love that person and how hard it is for us to accept and deal with the loss. I didn't grief as much for the baby I lost as I have after other losses probably because I didn't feel as bonded to my baby. It is the honest truth that I did not feel as attached or love that baby as much as I have my babies when they reached 3 months old. In no way does that mean that I didn't value that baby's life as much!!! I feel like you are confusing the amount of love or loss a person feels with the value of a life and they are not comparable. I could read the obituaries and not feel one ounce of loss for any of the people listed because I do not know any of them but I still feel each of those lives are just as valuable as my children, my husband, ANYBODY.
People often respond poorly to others losses because they expect a certain level of grief depending on the situation and that is not fair. It is not fair for someone to expect you not to grieve much for you baby nor is it fair for someone not to expect me to have much grief when my 96 year old grandma dies. Every person and every situation is different and we all experience grief in different ways. Grief or expected grief and the value of lives are totally separate things.
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  #76  
June 19th, 2010, 07:23 AM
TheMrs's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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I am pro choice.

I could probably never have an abortion myself unless my life was endanger. But I believe the legal option of abortion is what is best for society. I believe as a society we would be much worse off if drug addicts, those in severe poverty or simply those unwilling to be parents were forced to raise children. That being said I have a hard time respecting the God arguments. Truthfully I think they are a cop out. I think you should be able to support your beliefs, even if they are the same as those of your religion, without involving God or a religious text.

As far as adoption goes, again, I feel it is a cop out by those who either do not understand it or are not aware of what the foster system is like. Unless the child is white with no know disabilities the chances of them bouncing around from foster home to foster home creating feelings of inadequacy and unwantedness which add to things like our crime rates, teen pregnancies, poverty, drop outs, addicts, abusers, etc. are far greater than them being adopted and raised by a loving family like we want to believe they will.

For me, my view has much more to do with how the outcome, not the action itself, will effect the rest of us. I say this being a kindergarten teacher and the mother of a 7 week old. I love children. I just believe they deserve and need better than some can or are willing to give if we want the future society to be at least as good as it is now (how "good" it is, is also debatable).
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  #77  
June 19th, 2010, 03:07 PM
prantastic4
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I am pro-life.
If you don't want a child, don't have sex.
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  #78  
June 19th, 2010, 08:02 PM
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I also believe the baby should have rights and I'm sorry, but I think abortion is murder. I don't understand how there is another way around it. You have a child, the doctor kills that baby (fetus..whatever).

I know everyone will get in an uproar about this, but it's my honest opinion.
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  #79  
June 19th, 2010, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by prantastic4 View Post
I am pro-life.
If you don't want a child, don't have sex.
So, are you perpetually trying to conceive a child? Or are you just celibate when you're not wanting a pregnancy right then? And, if you're already pregnant, can you have sex? Because you don't want ANOTHER baby..
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  #80  
June 19th, 2010, 09:45 PM
(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Dayna~ View Post
I also believe the baby should have rights and I'm sorry, but I think abortion is murder. I don't understand how there is another way around it. You have a child, the doctor kills that baby (fetus..whatever).

I know everyone will get in an uproar about this, but it's my honest opinion.
I don't get into an uproar. I just feel it's an ignorant, narrow-minded view.
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