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Abortion Debate

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View Poll Results: Pro-Choice or Pro-Life?
Pro-Choice 92 51.11%
Pro-Life 77 42.78%
Other (please explain) 11 6.11%
Voters: 180. You may not vote on this poll

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  #141  
June 22nd, 2010, 01:03 PM
IAmMomMomIAm
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Well, by the Webster's definition of murder, one can't attach abortion to it. Seems that webster defines abortion as murder in only some countries.. so I'm not really sure why that's such a valid definition of murder for a pro-life opinion.

I agree with Webster that murder is the unlawful taking of a life. I would agree with the definition in a court of law, most of the time. But I also think it's possible to murder animals, and the law doesn't really address that.

I suppose my definition of murder would include:
Unlawfully taking a life
Taking a life with no regard for that life at all
Taking a life for no reason
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  #142  
June 22nd, 2010, 02:37 PM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keskes View Post
Well, by the Webster's definition of murder, one can't attach abortion to it. Seems that webster defines abortion as murder in only some countries.. so I'm not really sure why that's such a valid definition of murder for a pro-life opinion.

I agree with Webster that murder is the unlawful taking of a life. I would agree with the definition in a court of law, most of the time. But I also think it's possible to murder animals, and the law doesn't really address that.

I suppose my definition of murder would include:
Unlawfully taking a life
Taking a life with no regard for that life at all
Taking a life for no reason
earlier you made it sound like self-defense has to be involved. By the definition you list here, abortion wouldn't be murder if someone didn't want to gain weight and felt they were too young to "wreck" their body.
Could pulling a weed ever be murder? they would have some regard for the life but not enough to go through pregnancy for and although it may not seem like a good reason to me, it is a reason.
You say killing bacteria isn't murder because it self-defense - in that the bacteria could eventually kill you but in a legal sense, self-defense has to be more immediate. So, is it true that you view self-defense as being justifiable - as in it turns something that would be murder into just killing - even if the danger is somewhere in the future?

Do you believe murder is bad in all cases?

Also, I don't think I ever said that abortion was murder. I may think that should be considered murder in many cases but I don't think I ever said it was.
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  #143  
June 22nd, 2010, 03:18 PM
IAmMomMomIAm
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There are probably exceptions within my definition. If you'd like, you can throw specific circumstances at me over and over, and I can tell you whether or not it's murder or not, but that could go on forever. I'm not REALLY sure what you want me to say..

I will address the ones you've already thrown at me, in case you'd like me to:

Quote:
earlier you made it sound like self-defense has to be involved. By the definition you list here, abortion wouldn't be murder if someone didn't want to gain weight and felt they were too young to "wreck" their body.
That would be classified under a disregard for the life you are taking. If by "wreck your body" you meant damage your organ systems (kidneys, liver, heart, etc), that would be different.

Quote:
Could pulling a weed ever be murder? they would have some regard for the life but not enough to go through pregnancy for and although it may not seem like a good reason to me, it is a reason.
I don't really think of plants as being murdered, but yes.. I suppose that would be murder. I guess murdering plants doesn't have the same effect on me that murdering a person or animal does.

Quote:
You say killing bacteria isn't murder because it self-defense - in that the bacteria could eventually kill you but in a legal sense, self-defense has to be more immediate. So, is it true that you view self-defense as being justifiable - as in it turns something that would be murder into just killing - even if the danger is somewhere in the future?
I thought I said that killing bacteria is more like self defense than it is murder, not that it was strictly self defense. if that's not what I said then it's what I meant, lol. I don't really put the lives of bacteria on the same level as humans, animals and plants, either. But I suppose that killing bacteria for no reason would be murder, just like pulling a weed. But again, it doesn't effect me the same way.

In terms of abortion, if you find out in week 10 that carrying a baby has a high chance of killing you, then the danger is not in fact imminent, but I wouldn't vote for waiting until you're immediately about to deliver the baby (and die) to act on the "threat" of said delivery.

However, if you kill someone when they are 10 because you think they will likely kill you when they are 20, that would be murder. This is where abortion is the exception to the "immediacy" rule in my mind, though I understand not in everyone's.

Quote:
Do you believe murder is bad in all cases?
I'm gonna go with yes, it's always bad, but I won't deny that sometimes fear or emotion would justify it in my head (for instance, if Bob has killed three people, and is likely to kill again, and then Jane kills Bob, that would be murder, and that would be bad, but I would be inclined to morally absolve Jane of her crime. Note, this doesn't necessarily mean I think she should be legally absolved).


Self defense doesn't have to be involved for killing to not be murder. Michelle said that Dayna was a murderer for wiping down her counters, and I was addressing that specific claim. My previous previous post was not an all inclusive. My last post was more inclusive, but to be honest murder vs. killing isn't cut and dry or black and white to me in every case. There will probably be exceptions here and there where my emotions break my own set of rules.

I probably shouldn't go into any sort of law or justice type field because I have a hard time separating emotion from legal definitions. I realize that my definition of circumstances wouldn't always agree with the legal definition, and I'm okay with that.
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  #144  
June 22nd, 2010, 07:51 PM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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The word murder has a very strong and very negative connotation for for me so I was just wondering if you believed "murdering" bugs, plants or bacteria was really wrong or if it just fit your definition of what is required to commit a murder. I think I understand your position better now.
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  #145  
June 22nd, 2010, 10:36 PM
IAmMomMomIAm
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Ah, yes. How I define murder and how I feel about a particular instance of murder would not always be the same. Technically pulling a weed fits my definition of murder, but doesn't have nearly the same connotation as murdering a person. It's sort of like falling off a chair counts as "falling" but doesn't hold the same meaning as falling off a building.

When I answered that murder is always wrong, I was mostly speaking in terms of murdering humans or animals, and not plants and bacteria. However, I think that disregarding any life is wrong, though I admit that I have done so (like pulling weeds or swatting a mosquito). Everything has a soul, and as such all life should be valued and respected to some extent. Actually, I'm not entirely sure bacteria having a soul.. no one really goes into that.

Last edited by IAmMomMomIAm; June 22nd, 2010 at 10:39 PM.
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  #146  
June 23rd, 2010, 10:06 AM
mommabirdof4
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I am pro-choice...but for myself personally I am pro-life...does that make sense...I could never have an abortion but who am I to say what anyone else is to do.
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  #147  
June 23rd, 2010, 12:09 PM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mommabirdof2 View Post
I am pro-choice...but for myself personally I am pro-life...does that make sense...I could never have an abortion but who am I to say what anyone else is to do.

well, we tell other people what they should or shouldn't do all the time. For you, is the statement you made any different than if I said - I am personally against physically abusing my children and I would never beat my children but who am I sto say what anyone else is to do.
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  #148  
June 23rd, 2010, 01:43 PM
TheMrs's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
well, we tell other people what they should or shouldn't do all the time. For you, is the statement you made any different than if I said - I am personally against physically abusing my children and I would never beat my children but who am I sto say what anyone else is to do.
I feel the same way, but I disagree with you. I think all women should have the right to choose however I wouldn't do it myself. I think this maybe the way she feels as well.

Now I do feel that I would under specific circumstances, like rape or maybe even if for some reason I became homeless. But I feel my husband and I are emotionally, physically and financially able to care for children.
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  #149  
June 23rd, 2010, 01:45 PM
mommabirdof4
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I get what you are saying...But in my opinion I can't control someones elses body...It would be like if I said everyone should breastfeed or every mother should have a natral childbirth....Those things are for me and my body and children but I know they are not for everyone so who am I to say what someelse can do with their body.

Abusing a child is an action someone is taking on another human being. Plus having been in a situation like that (SIL and BIL abusing their kids)...You can take measures to stop it but it is up to the courts...after having custody of those 3 kids for 3 years guess who the court returned them to...Their father.
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  #150  
June 23rd, 2010, 02:13 PM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mommabirdof2 View Post
I get what you are saying...But in my opinion I can't control someones elses body...It would be like if I said everyone should breastfeed or every mother should have a natral childbirth....Those things are for me and my body and children but I know they are not for everyone so who am I to say what someelse can do with their body.

Abusing a child is an action someone is taking on another human being. Plus having been in a situation like that (SIL and BIL abusing their kids)...You can take measures to stop it but it is up to the courts...after having custody of those 3 kids for 3 years guess who the court returned them to...Their father.
well, I know you or I personally can't control what someone else does with their body - the question is - should there be a LAW telling someone what he/she should do with his/her body.
So, from your response I assume two things: 1) you are against seatbelt laws, drug laws, and any other law that tells a person what to do with his/her body. ( I am usually as well, just trying to figure out your position) and 2) that you don't believe that an unborn child is another human being because you said "abusing a child is an action someone is taking on another human being."
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  #151  
June 23rd, 2010, 03:33 PM
TheMrs's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
well, I know you or I personally can't control what someone else does with their body - the question is - should there be a LAW telling someone what he/she should do with his/her body.
So, from your response I assume two things: 1) you are against seatbelt laws, drug laws, and any other law that tells a person what to do with his/her body. ( I am usually as well, just trying to figure out your position) and 2) that you don't believe that an unborn child is another human being because you said "abusing a child is an action someone is taking on another human being."
Most laws concerning others bodies are a result of them just not effecting themselves but others. If someone is killed in a crash, whether they were wearing their seatbelt or not may effect if or how anyone else involved is charged. Drugs obviously effect ones behavior and often have negative effects on others, especially any children involved.

I think one becomes a human being when they are likely to survive on their own. When do you?
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  #152  
June 23rd, 2010, 06:36 PM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMrs View Post
Most laws concerning others bodies are a result of them just not effecting themselves but others. If someone is killed in a crash, whether they were wearing their seatbelt or not may effect if or how anyone else involved is charged. Drugs obviously effect ones behavior and often have negative effects on others, especially any children involved.

I think one becomes a human being when they are likely to survive on their own. When do you?
I think one becomes a human being at conception. By your definition, a baby becomes a human being a lot earlier in the united states then a baby does in remote villages in China - is this correct? A baby can survive at about 24 weeks gestation here in the united states without medical advancements but in a remote village in China that kind of treatment is not available.
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  #153  
June 23rd, 2010, 07:33 PM
(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
I think one becomes a human being at conception. By your definition, a baby becomes a human being a lot earlier in the united states then a baby does in remote villages in China - is this correct? A baby can survive at about 24 weeks gestation here in the united states without medical advancements but in a remote village in China that kind of treatment is not available.
Dh's grandmother was a preemie and it was a homestead. In those days, they popped them in the stove and she literally grew in the oven!
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  #154  
June 25th, 2010, 07:57 AM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.) View Post
Dh's grandmother was a preemie and it was a homestead. In those days, they popped them in the stove and she literally grew in the oven!
haha! well, I wish TheMrs would come back and clarify what she means exactly. I was thinking that I bet a lot of babies survive in other parts of the world because people value skin to skin contact more than we do here in the western world!
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  #155  
June 25th, 2010, 08:34 AM
(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.)
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Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
haha! well, I wish TheMrs would come back and clarify what she means exactly. I was thinking that I bet a lot of babies survive in other parts of the world because people value skin to skin contact more than we do here in the western world!
I agree about skin to skin! (Lord knows I was just waiting for a moment to tell that story too! LOL!)

Honestly though, it's a bit of a jab at myself and own ignorance too. I was raised to believe only western medicine is the answer. I thought scenarios of preemies met certain death. Only when I got pregnant and had my baby did I start questioning medical authority here. It was then I learned that once upon a time, midwives had remedies for women who wanted abortions. I wonder if the answer to abortion is to go back to that instead of allowing OB's do it?
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  #156  
June 25th, 2010, 08:49 PM
KMG KMG is offline
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I think for me abortion is wrong, I also think that it should not be used as a form of birth control however I do believe the option should be there for those who need or want it for whatever reasons. I do not think that the morals,values and beliefs of some should control what others do in their own life. I guess I get pissed off when I see the protesters who are majorly 50+ year old men. Who are they to dictate, comment or do anything else in regards to a young woman who for whatever reasons made the decision she did. I am usually the one driving past those picketers yelling at them to go home and hug their grandkids.
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  #157  
June 27th, 2010, 11:05 PM
*Dayna*'s Avatar Aussie Mama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMG View Post
I think for me abortion is wrong, I also think that it should not be used as a form of birth control however I do believe the option should be there for those who need or want it for whatever reasons. I do not think that the morals,values and beliefs of some should control what others do in their own life. I guess I get pissed off when I see the protesters who are majorly 50+ year old men. Who are they to dictate, comment or do anything else in regards to a young woman who for whatever reasons made the decision she did. I am usually the one driving past those picketers yelling at them to go home and hug their grandkids.
Because they probably have children. Men are allowed to feel strongly about abortion.
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  #158  
June 28th, 2010, 03:32 PM
KMG KMG is offline
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Yeah my problem is when I see the protesters outside our hospital and they are all men, what I want to say to them is, are you gonna pay for the child, are you gonna get up in the night. The point I make is it isn't any of their business it isn't any of anyones business to dictate what another person should or shouldn't go through.

I don't know about where you are but they only protest outside the hospital when they know there is someone having an abortion. I know for me it was a difficult day for me when I had to have emergency surgery, and almost died due to an ectopic pregnancy that ruptured and when I came out of the hospital I had to drive through the protest line. Not something I needed or should have had to deal with, nor anyone else who may or may not have had an abortion that day.

Personally its like gay marriage for me, it doesn't affect me so what should it matter to me what they do. The choices another woman makes in regards to her health, emotionally and physically makes no impact on me so why should my personal values be imposed on that person.
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  #159  
July 3rd, 2010, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by prantastic4 View Post
I am pro-life.
If you don't want a child, don't have sex.



Should be made into a t-shirt
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  #160  
July 5th, 2010, 11:58 PM
summerblue's Avatar Veteran
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I am pro choice. I don't want to live in a society where 100% control of my body is ever taken away for any reason. That being said, I can't imagine having an abortion myself but I still want the choice. And I want the choice for every other medical procedure.
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