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Interesting Read-- New Law in Utah


Abortion Debate

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  #1  
March 9th, 2010, 06:16 AM
jesridge's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Controversial Utah Law Charges Women and Girls With Murder for Miscarriages | Civil Liberties | AlterNet

What do you think of this? Make sure you read the scenario that occurred to prompt a law like this in the first place.
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  #2  
March 9th, 2010, 08:03 AM
irishxrose
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Slippery slope, and I absolutely do not agree with the wording of the bill. Criminalizing miscarriages goes too far, and frankly this law will be largely unenforceable. No competent prosecutor will want to touch this with a 100 foot pole; as every case they try will be appealed to the highest court it can get to and it will create hassles and cost more money in a time where budgets are shrinking. The law is too vague and severely restricts reproductive rights. What's next, Utah, outlawing abortion? I see a court fight up ahead.

Quote:
Ironically, just three days after Utah’s House and Senate overwhelmingly passed Rep. Wimmer’s Criminal Homicide and Abortion Amendments bill, the Senate refused to even debate legislation that would have allowed teachers to provide comprehensive sex education to students who had their parent’s permission. Current state law says teachers can’t advocate or endorse the use of contraceptive methods or devices, according to Bird.

“If you teach about chlamydia, you’re allowed to say, ‘This is a condom and this is chlamydia.’ The law would have allowed teachers to say, ‘If you’re having sex, you can use a condom to prevent chlamydia. Abstinence is the best way, but if you’re not abstinent, use a condom.’”

Every day in Utah, 12 teenage girls between the ages of 15 and 19 become pregnant. Chlamydia is the number one most reported communicable disease in the state, according to the Utah Department of Health. In 2007 there were 5,721 newly reported cases; 3,748 of those cases (66 percent) were diagnosed in individuals between the ages of 15 and 24. In Utah, you’re more likely to get chlamydia than chicken pox or the flu.
And this is just sad and pathetic. Wake up people!
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  #3  
March 9th, 2010, 08:49 AM
**Badfish**'s Avatar Worth Saving
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I understand the urge to legislate something that would prevent the scenario that prompted the bill, but realistically, if something is rare enough that it becomes an episode of SVU, it doesn't need to be legislated. There are already assault laws in place. They can be utilized without impacting reproductive rights.
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  #4  
March 10th, 2010, 03:22 PM
IAmMomMomIAm
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I'm torn. I don't think it needs to be a law that you can't abort your own fetus, or pay someone to beat the crap out of you so that you miscarry. If it was happening often, then I can see the need to legislate it, but one case really isn't enough.
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  #5  
March 10th, 2010, 06:53 PM
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First, I think the article was definitely skewed to one side. Unless I read it incorrectly (and feel free to correct me if I did) the wording was changed so that miscarriages (in the generally accepted, non-intentional form) are not a prosecutable offense, but only when a woman purposefully induces a miscarriage in order to (with the INTENT of) killing her unborn child.

I'm sort of on board with this, and I'm not sure why it's much different than the California law which allowed Scott Peterson to be charged in the death of his wife, Laci, AND her unborn son, Connor. I do see how it could be a slippery slope, in determining intent, but I guess that's a quagmire associated with many other crimes as well.

As far as the sexual education issue, I support comprehensive sex education WITH parental permission, and I'm surprised that the state still has it. Living in Utah, there are plenty of jokes about how many of the BYU students get around the chastity rules. Including having "gazing" parties where they all get naked and "gaze" at each other, rather than have sex. It's pretty hilarious to me (of course, those aren't my kids, either).

Oh, and if sex really is so rampant here, I wonder why there are SOOOO many books at Deseret Book (an LDS bookstore that is HUGE in Utah) aimed at teaching young, married, LDS women who have been taught not to have sex their entire lives that it's A-OK to enjoy sex with your husband once married. Our bishop made us read one called "Between Husband and Wife" when we got engaged, and I just laughed and told him I didn't think it'd be a problem for me (the sinner who'd ALREADY enjoyed pre-marital sex). But, it did open my eyes, and make me want to be sure that when I teach my kids about sex it's not that "sex is BAD," it's that "sex is really beautiful IF you are married."
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  #6  
March 10th, 2010, 09:11 PM
**Badfish**'s Avatar Worth Saving
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It's not really comparable to the law that allowed Scott Petersen to be charged for both deaths. In California (and other states with similar laws), one can be charged with homicide if the fetus was viable outside of the womb. Lacey Petersen was full-term at the time of her death. From what I read, there didn't seem to be any similar limitation on the law discussed in the article.
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  #7  
March 10th, 2010, 10:11 PM
(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jesridge View Post
Controversial Utah Law Charges Women and Girls With Murder for Miscarriages | Civil Liberties | AlterNet

What do you think of this? Make sure you read the scenario that occurred to prompt a law like this in the first place.
I read about the scenario that prompted this law and I was so sad that this woman is being demonized. She was uneducated and because of lack of resources to a safe abortion was forced to be beaten up as the alternative. Now there is a law because of this? It's just absurd to someone like me who can't understand the anti-choice movement. To me the incident is a black eye to a state for NOT teaching sex ed and for NOT having safe abortion alternatives. it's so messed up that I just can't comprehend it.
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  #8  
March 10th, 2010, 10:20 PM
(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DollBabyKG View Post
I teach my kids about sex it's not that "sex is BAD," it's that "sex is really beautiful IF you are married."
I know there are some great parents out there who are some form of Christian that can teach about sex and marriage in a healthy manner. Hats off to you. I just can't get behind sex before marriage equal sin. I also will never understand this teaching. I know so many Christians who teach this and I feel sorry for their kids. I'm sure that would be offensive to you and many others but that is how I feel. To me, it is a huge part of the reason why marriage is in shatters. We live in a culture that doesn't celebrate sex but makes it sound dirty and wrong ~ sinful even. So when hormonal teens jump at the alter, are we really surprised they don't have the tools to deal with marriage if we can't even talk to them about sex? I think people's lack of respect for sexual matters is a reflection of our inability to speak of sex in a more positive way. Pregnancy and abortion seem to be collateral damage because of our lack of communication of what positive sex is all about. That's messed up! We should be encouraging healthy self-respect, not condemnation to a person's sex life. I just think everything is so backwards.
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  #9  
March 11th, 2010, 06:14 AM
IAmMomMomIAm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.) View Post
I read about the scenario that prompted this law and I was so sad that this woman is being demonized. She was uneducated and because of lack of resources to a safe abortion was forced to be beaten up as the alternative. Now there is a law because of this? It's just absurd to someone like me who can't understand the anti-choice movement. To me the incident is a black eye to a state for NOT teaching sex ed and for NOT having safe abortion alternatives. it's so messed up that I just can't comprehend it.
No state has a "safe" abortion option for someone who's seven months pregnant and not at risk.. are you suggesting that abortions at any gestation, for any reason, should be legalized?
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  #10  
March 11th, 2010, 12:02 PM
(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keskes View Post
No state has a "safe" abortion option for someone who's seven months pregnant and not at risk.. are you suggesting that abortions at any gestation, for any reason, should be legalized?
When I read that article, it was very clear that girl had no option to abort any time because of the travel involved. So it's not even that she wanted to do this at 7 months but that she didn't have the option at 4 weeks, 8 weeks, 3 months, etc... She was desperate by 7 months.
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  #11  
March 11th, 2010, 01:30 PM
Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.) View Post
I know there are some great parents out there who are some form of Christian that can teach about sex and marriage in a healthy manner. Hats off to you. I just can't get behind sex before marriage equal sin. I also will never understand this teaching. I know so many Christians who teach this and I feel sorry for their kids. I'm sure that would be offensive to you and many others but that is how I feel. To me, it is a huge part of the reason why marriage is in shatters. We live in a culture that doesn't celebrate sex but makes it sound dirty and wrong ~ sinful even. So when hormonal teens jump at the alter, are we really surprised they don't have the tools to deal with marriage if we can't even talk to them about sex? I think people's lack of respect for sexual matters is a reflection of our inability to speak of sex in a more positive way. Pregnancy and abortion seem to be collateral damage because of our lack of communication of what positive sex is all about. That's messed up! We should be encouraging healthy self-respect, not condemnation to a person's sex life. I just think everything is so backwards.
But that's my point, there is a way to teach our children that sex is a sacred act (if that's what we believe), and should be reserved for within the confines of a loving marriage, without teaching them that the act itself is sinful, and bad.

I plan to teach our kids (at age-appropriate intervals of course), that sex can be beautiful, and downright GREAT, if it's done within the confines of a loving marriage (a LOVING marriage, not a marriage for the sake of sex), but that outside of those confines it can have real consequences, physically, emotionally, and spiritually. If you believe differently, that's okay by me, and I won't judge you by my personal standards, but for me, self-respect means NOT having sex with just anyone, and making sure it's within the confines of a stable, loving relationship (preferably marriage, but I didn't wait for marriage, though I was in a long term relationship with the other guy I've had sex with). I don't know, I think there is something truly beautiful about saving that part of yourself for the person you'll be with forever, and I hope my kids will, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.) View Post
When I read that article, it was very clear that girl had no option to abort any time because of the travel involved. So it's not even that she wanted to do this at 7 months but that she didn't have the option at 4 weeks, 8 weeks, 3 months, etc... She was desperate by 7 months.
I know this is a cliched argument that so many on the pro-choice side seem to hate, but she did have the option to not have unprotected sex that resulted in an unwanted pregnancy. (But I will give you that if she didn't have open, honest communication with her parents, the schools here wouldn't have provided it to her).

Either way, she did have the option of continuing the pregnancy for the last 2 months, and placing her baby for adoption.
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  #12  
March 11th, 2010, 01:49 PM
(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.)
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**shakes my head**

I think I have to understand the religious theory and I just can't. (For whatever reason, it's impossible to convey that marriage (or lack of) doesn't necessarily mean a person doesn't love and respect themselves. Sex has nothing to do with that.. Sex is only a condition of marriage and healthy relationships mean marriage in religious speak and I can't agree with any of that. There are their own separate issues.) Also, it's so cliche but had abortions services been available, this situation could have been avoided. I believe in harm reduction and it seems to go against religious thinking.. I guess there just is no point in me trying to debate this one with you. I'm sorry I can't communicate my pov in a manner that could help us both understand each other better.

Last edited by (.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.); March 11th, 2010 at 01:52 PM.
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  #13  
March 11th, 2010, 04:55 PM
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It's not that I don't understand where you are coming from. I understand that you don't believe that sex should only be shared within the confines of a loving marriage, and I can respect your opinion. I think we just come at the issue separately because we view it so differently. We may never agree, or live our lives the same way, but we can still understand it.

I'm not sure how I can articulate it to make it more relatable to someone who believes differently. Beyond religion (because there have been periods of my life where I haven't been particularly religious), I believe that sex is the most intimate act that you can share with another human being. To me, that makes it special, and different, and something I wouldn't want to share with anyone other than my husband because it would remove the sanctity of the act, and it would tarnish my idea of what it means. And that has nothing to do with religion, it's about the deeper meaning that I place on it. In that regard, even if I stopped believing in God, or the Christian idea of pre-marital sex, I still wouldn't be very likely to hop into bed with someone I wasn't married to, or at least someone I thought I would be marrying.

And honestly, all "deeper meaning" aside, there are so many potentially embarrassing things that can happen during the act, I absolutely cannot imagine doing it with someone I wasn't deeply committed to (and essentially HAD to face the next day).
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  #14  
March 11th, 2010, 05:05 PM
(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.)
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But the whole time you're implying that sex somehow isn't special to people who don't view marriage the way you do and that's it's given without thought. I think pre-martial sex can be given within great relationships. Just because people aren't married doesn't mean their relationship isn't at a level where they can sex without being meaningful. It doesn't mean unmarried people don't respect themselves or others.
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