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New law RE: pregnancy and birth defects


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  #41  
May 3rd, 2010, 07:01 PM
Momof4Boyz's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Not running, just not going to play into it. This is totally off topic now. It wasn't on the aboriton board but now is but I didn't click on it planning to debate abortion so I am not going to start now! I have my opinions on it and as "ridiculous" as they seem to you, they are my opinons and you don't have to like them anymore than I like yours.

And Melinda FYI that's a picture of an approx 4-8 week fetus. Generally, health issues are found about 16-22 weeks on the first u/s (the big one we all go in fear of) maybe as early as 12 if they have one done that early which is the second trimester so it would be a totally different proceedure. Just wanted to correct that real quick. You should look up abortions around 20 weeks, interesting to say the least.

For the record, about the ACTUAL topic - I don't like the law.
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Last edited by Momof4Boyz; May 3rd, 2010 at 07:05 PM. Reason: it got moved
  #42  
May 3rd, 2010, 08:45 PM
Christy72
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So I should go find some photos of 2nd trimester abortions then. Cool maybe tomorrow. I might go see if I can find that video of the aftermath of abortion. It is not a diagram but actual fetuses all torn apart. You people are in such denial. I am glad this got moved. I feel sick!!!!
  #43  
May 3rd, 2010, 09:15 PM
(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.)
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Ok.. I don't like anyone being told they are in denial. Everyone is denial in some way this the topic of abortion. Period. Read this:

Quote:
Certain conditions that can be diagnosed in advance are associated with risk of maternal mortality greater than 20 percent: pulmonary hypertension (primary or Eisenmenger's syndrome), Marfan's syndrome with aortic root involvement, complicated coarctation of the aorta, and, possibly, peripartum cardiomyapthy with residual dysfunction. Taken altogether, abortions performed for these conditions make up a barely calculable fraction of the total abortions performed in the United States, but they are extremely important because they have been used to validate the idea of abortion as a whole. They stand as a sign that abortion is in some cases unavoidable-that it can be the fulfillment of the good and natural desire of the mother to live.

It should be emphasized how rare these conditions are. Our obstetric service in the Los Angeles area has been the largest in the United States for most of the last fifteen years, averaging fifteen thousand to sixteen thousand births per year. Our institution serves a catchment for all high-risk deliveries in an area with thirty thousand deliveries per year. Excluding cases that have been diagnosed late in pregnancy, we do not see more than one or two cases per year that pose this degree of risk of maternal mortality; these are exceedingly rare conditions. This rarity does not diminish the tragic dimension of such cases, but the cases are seen in perspective when their numbers are compared to the total number of abortions performed.

If we examine other conditions associated with lesser though still significant risk of maternal mortality (conditions for which abortion is often recommended), we find that in many cases the prognoses are changing, both because of a better understanding of the natural history of the disease and because of advances in therapy. Here is the paradox, however. As the actual risks to the mother diminish because of medical advances, concern about maternal and fetal risks from complications of pregnancy is still offered as a justification for many abortions. From the case histories that follow, the distorted milieu of medical practice into which most pregnant women now enter can be shown.

(gap)

Since the fetus can be aborted for any reason, the physician may see fit to suggest or recommend abortion for almost any reason.

The basis for this attitude is closely linked to a second concern: the unbalanced legal burden of informed consent. When a mother has a major medical problem in pregnancy (or indeed any medical problem), the medical record must reflect the patient's informed consent to continue with the pregnancy despite the risks. If doctors fail to disclose those risks, they are negligent because the patient could have chosen abortion as a different course of treatment. To compound the problem for the physician, there are no clear legal guidelines to determine which risks do not warrant communication to the patient. A fact is considered to be material if a reasonable, prudent person in the position of the patient would attach significance to it in deciding whether or not to submit to the proposed treatment. The accurate assessment of the risks in a given case can be a tedious process. Should any untoward outcome result from the pregnancy, the record will be scrutinized intensely. No method of documentation is watertight.

The doctor's alternative-to suggest or recommend that abortion is the safest route-carries no such legal liability. There does not appear to be a legal precedent for a physician's liability in a case where abortion was recommended on supposed medical grounds that were subsequently found to be baseless or misrepresented.

With regard to fetal abnormalities, the burden is equally one-sided and even more clearly delineated in law. Physicians have legal and, some would say, ethical duties to inform pregnant women of prenatal tests that would affect their willingness to continue the pregnancy. The concept of "wrongful birth" in law establishes that failure to inform of tests that are widely accepted in the medical community as part of the standard of care could lead to legal liability. The related concept of "wrongful life," although less commonly invoked legally, is instructive for discovering the idea behind the law. In such cases, the child brings suit, claiming that it would be better not to have been born than to have been born with defects.

The concept of informed consent, simple in theory, is almost impossible in practice. For many physicians it translates into simply recommending every possible test and erring on the side of suggesting abortion whenever there is a question of risk to the mother or child. There is a tremendous imbalance between the liability involved in not informing the mother of risks compared to the liability of suggesting the alternative of abortion. All pregnant women, no matter what their personal convictions, are subject to the effects of this imbalance.
source

From: Thomas Murphy Goodwin, M.D., is Assistant Professor in the Department of Obsterics and Gynecology at the University of Southern California's Women's Hospital and is Director of Maternal-Fetal Medicine at the Hospital of the Good Samaritan in Los Angeles.

^ That was brought you by the pro-life side. Very clearly, as soon as all the all mighty doctor profession is questioned, as a woman, you're NOT getting the full story. Add legalities to the situation and we're just bloody pawns. It's not enough we have to fight to have any control over our uterus at a political level but we sure don't once a big fat positive shows up either.

I'm pro choice and can't believe the state of how everyone but the pregnant woman has say over our own bodies, and babies. I'm mad we ever let it get this far.
  #45  
May 3rd, 2010, 09:49 PM
irishxrose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christy72 View Post
So I should go find some photos of 2nd trimester abortions then. Cool maybe tomorrow. I might go see if I can find that video of the aftermath of abortion. It is not a diagram but actual fetuses all torn apart. You people are in such denial. I am glad this got moved. I feel sick!!!!
Posting those videos and pictures is against the rules here. If you do so, you most likely will get suspended. Posting a medical diagram is entirely different from posting pro-life graphic propaganda that often and deliberately misrepresents the truth. And if you post a picture of a so-called "aborted" fetus, I hope you know that 95% of those second trimester pictures are of stillborn and miscarried fetuses, and NOT those who have been aborted. I can't believe you find a medical diagram a problem but not the fact that those videos and photos you're talking about tend to have been falsified by the pro-life community to use to forward their cause with complete and total disrespect to the mothers who gave birth to those babies that were stillborn and miscarried. The pro-life community who uses that type of propaganda has no integrity. But hey, whatever furthers your cause right?

The problem with this is a doctor should not able to withhold MEDICAL information from a mother, period. That smacks of being unethical, as well as violating rights. It's kinda like a cop withholding exculpatory evidence. It's not right and I can't believe people are defending it - you are losing your RIGHTS here as women to know MEDICAL information that directly involves you as a patient! Just because a doctor might "think" that information may "cause" you to get an abortion - s/he still doesn't have a say over YOUR reproductive health and what you choose to do, and s/he DOES NOT have the right to withhold any information in regards to YOUR health, and when that involves a pregnancy, that involves YOUR health, not just a child's. A doctor withholding any information from you regarding your medical history and health is unethical. It just is.
  #46  
May 3rd, 2010, 09:55 PM
(.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.)
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Originally Posted by Mommiex2 View Post
Exactly, and if less than 2% of all the abortions performed are done at 20 weeks gestation, then obviously there is a real reason for it.
And the worst part is, even if this bill didn't pass, we still don't really get accurate medical advice with our pregnancies and bodies. This whole system I can't wrap my brain around. If we aren't fighting the anti-choice camp (which this bill reflects,) or the moral "right" then it's doctors and their BS.
  #47  
May 3rd, 2010, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.) View Post
And the worst part is, even if this bill didn't pass, we still don't really get accurate medical advice with our pregnancies and bodies. This whole system I can't wrap my brain around. If we aren't fighting the anti-choice camp (which this bill reflects,) or the moral "right" then it's doctors and their BS.
I've just sat and read this whole debate with my jaw on the desk.

The above bolded is pretty much my response to the whole thing. While I can see how such a law might save a few unborn babies/foetuses, it puts others in harms way. Without full knowledge of her unborn childs health a woman may make a decision that may put that baby in harms way. Without full knowledge of her childs health, how can one expect a woman to give consent to procedures, to make important decisions?

For example, (and I'm going to use my story as my example) if we had not been told of our sons heart defects then chances are we would have gone ahead with our plans for a home birth. He would have then been born into an environment that was ill equipped to cope with his health in the first few hours of his life. However, we were told and were than able to make decisions based on that and he was born into an environment where he got immediate medical attention.
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  #48  
May 4th, 2010, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mommiex2 View Post
You are correct, a second trimester abortion is one that would occur after the 20 week sonogram. The reason I posted the information I posted is because almost 90% of all abortions are the ones I described. However, the proceedure that the thread is talking about is called a Dilation & Evacuation (D & E). According to recent data, fewer than 2% of the abortions performed in this country are on fetuses that are 20 weeks of gestation. ( see http://www.guttmacher.org/presentati...ort_slides.pdf ) A fetus is not considered to be viable until after 24 weeks gestation, and as stated previously, the nervous system isn't functioning until after that. In your post, you indicated that a late term abortion was in humaine because of "decapitation". However, the proceedure is described as follows:

Dilation and evacuation (D&E) for abortion[/list]Do you have any links that would describe what you stated occurs? Do you have any information to state that the fetus feels pain or is of the understanding of what is occurring? I just don't understand how you can, with authority, state that the fetus "feels" this or that or that a proceedure does this or that without anything to back those statements up.



Christy, I didn't post anything that would have been offensive to the mothers on this board. If you can't see the difference in posting a medical diagram vs. "fetuses torn apart", well then I don't know what to tell you. But, go ahead and post what you think is the equivalent of what I posted. I am sure it will go over well.




Exactly, and if less than 2% of all the abortions performed are done at 20 weeks gestation, then obviously there is a real reason for it.

Did you have an ultrasound? Because I had a lot of them and that proceedure of the D & E is correct, but the "tissues" they speak of ARE LIMBS. If you disagree with that, then the pictures you post of your ultrasound must be fake? The ultrasound machine must... create the limbs? Because I could see my kids hands and feet on the u/s so I'm 100% sure they have them at that gestation. And obviously, you can't fit a baby that big out of a cervix in 1 peice therefore the limbs, er, tissues are torn off (which could leave baby *gasp* decapitated) and if you think that a child who you can poke and moves can't feel - wow, just wow. I don't care what any doctor says, my "fetus" wouldn't respond to touch if he could not feel.


And anyone who thinks the pictures of babies that are in peices were stillborn, I mean come on, I've seen a few stillborn babies and they don't look like that. I've never seen one come out with their skin black from the burns. That's just silly!

And yes, most abortions ARE done in the 1st trimester however, like I said, by the time a health issue is diagnosed you are going to be in your 2nd trimester which means you'll have a D & E not a suction abortion.
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  #49  
May 4th, 2010, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momof3Boyz View Post
And Melinda FYI that's a picture of an approx 4-8 week fetus.
Just wanted to show a real u/s of my current pregnancy at 8 weeks. The baby's legs were moving and he was very much moving all around the womb. I do believe they can feel pain and I have also had more than 5 D&E/C's and they aren't that gentle as described. It's basically scraping out the contents of a womb.



and this was him at 10 weeks and that is very much a human and not a grouping of cells

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  #50  
May 4th, 2010, 06:13 AM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (.Y.)mom2dd(.Y.) View Post
Ok.. I don't like anyone being told they are in denial. Everyone is denial in some way this the topic of abortion. Period. Read this:

source

From: Thomas Murphy Goodwin, M.D., is Assistant Professor in the Department of Obsterics and Gynecology at the University of Southern California's Women's Hospital and is Director of Maternal-Fetal Medicine at the Hospital of the Good Samaritan in Los Angeles.

^ That was brought you by the pro-life side. Very clearly, as soon as all the all mighty doctor profession is questioned, as a woman, you're NOT getting the full story. Add legalities to the situation and we're just bloody pawns. It's not enough we have to fight to have any control over our uterus at a political level but we sure don't once a big fat positive shows up either.

I'm pro choice and can't believe the state of how everyone but the pregnant woman has say over our own bodies, and babies. I'm mad we ever let it get this far.

Again I will ask - HAVE YOU READ THE BILL??? if so, please post a link, I'm having trouble finding it.
  #51  
May 4th, 2010, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cricket Master View Post
Just wanted to show a real u/s of my current pregnancy at 8 weeks. The baby's legs were moving and he was very much moving all around the womb. I do believe they can feel pain and I have also had more than 5 D&E/C's and they aren't that gentle as described. It's basically scraping out the contents of a womb.



and this was him at 10 weeks and that is very much a human and not a grouping of cells

And so cute too! I love ultrasounds at this gestation, they're my favorite!! I have some of Jayden at about the same gestation as this and you can so clearly make out his tiny little hands and feet! They're so sweet!
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  #52  
May 4th, 2010, 06:16 AM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishxrose View Post

The problem with this is a doctor should not able to withhold MEDICAL information from a mother, period. That smacks of being unethical, as well as violating rights. It's kinda like a cop withholding exculpatory evidence. It's not right and I can't believe people are defending it - you are losing your RIGHTS here as women to know MEDICAL information that directly involves you as a patient! Just because a doctor might "think" that information may "cause" you to get an abortion - s/he still doesn't have a say over YOUR reproductive health and what you choose to do, and s/he DOES NOT have the right to withhold any information in regards to YOUR health, and when that involves a pregnancy, that involves YOUR health, not just a child's. A doctor withholding any information from you regarding your medical history and health is unethical. It just is.
have you read the Bill? could you post a link? I'm having trouble finding it. Again, from what I COULD find it looks like a doctor could not be charged with a wrongful life action. That is not the same thing as saying a doctor can withhold information. Common, you know that! I feel like people are jumping on this drama bandwagon without having even informed themselves.
(although I very well could be the only one who hasn't read the Bill in which case I stand corrected)
  #53  
May 4th, 2010, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
Again I will ask - HAVE YOU READ THE BILL??? if so, please post a link, I'm having trouble finding it.
here is a link to it and also a section by section explanation on the bill

Oklahoma House Bill 2656: NOT ANTI ABORTION
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  #54  
May 4th, 2010, 06:53 AM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cricket Master View Post
here is a link to it and also a section by section explanation on the bill

Oklahoma House Bill 2656: NOT ANTI ABORTION
Thank you! I don't know why I was having such trouble finding the bill. The section by section explanation is incorrect and so I strongly suggest that anyone interested IN PROPERLY INFORMING THEMSELVES ON THE ISSUE read just the Bill and skip the explanation.
  #55  
May 4th, 2010, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by AMDG View Post
Thank you! I don't know why I was having such trouble finding the bill. The section by section explanation is incorrect and so I strongly suggest that anyone interested IN PROPERLY INFORMING THEMSELVES ON THE ISSUE read just the Bill and skip the explanation.
sorry about that, it was a link that someone posted, I didn't read it
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  #56  
May 4th, 2010, 09:03 AM
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As the mother of a pair of angels who could have suffered at the hands of this law.. I'm disgusted by it. I am pro choice. It is a womans choice to continue a pregnancy, same as it is her choice to end one.

That being said, I dont agree with abortions for MOST medical ailments that babies can be born with (downs yndrome for example, I do not agree with aborting for downs).

However, when faced with "your babies have Trisomy 8. One is already dying, the other is going to die. If you continue with your pregnancy you will lose them anyways because this is incompatable with life." you have to make a decision. Do you carry the baby who is going to die and suffer then, or do you chose to terminate and suffer now? Either way, baby is going to die. My personal decision was that dealing with "Abortion" was easier than dealing with stillbirth. 5 miscarriages later and I still do not regret my decision, and I'm glad my doctor was as honest with me as she was. (it helps I witnessed the pain of losing a baby at 19 weeks to trisomy in his next girlfriend... my pain was nothing compared to hers).

We may as well go back to the rules of the 1800's at this point. We're never going to agree on anything in the world. Ppl complain about abortion laws, then act outraged when a woman abandons her newborn at a hospital 9 months later... um.. she didn't want it, you wouldn't let her abortion it what the hey did you think she was going to do with it!?

Ok should be ashamed of itself.
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  #58  
May 4th, 2010, 10:54 AM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Tithen~ View Post
As the mother of a pair of angels who could have suffered at the hands of this law.. I'm disgusted by it. I am pro choice. It is a womans choice to continue a pregnancy, same as it is her choice to end one. .

how could your babies have suffered at the hands of this law?
Doctors are either ethical or they aren't - this law isn't going to MAKE doctors be unethical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mommiex2 View Post



Yes, I have read the bill. I also worked in the personal injury field for more than 10 years. I understand what the law states and how it can be applied, which is why I do not agree with it at all.
What do you mean - "how it can be applied"
Do you believe that the only relief possible is a wrongful birth or wrongful life cause of action and that no other relief exists?
  #60  
May 4th, 2010, 11:14 AM
AMDG's Avatar Margaret
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mommiex2 View Post
First of all, what about the suffering of the parents? That doesn't count? Ethical medically or religiously? There are some doctors that feel that "being ethical" is following their beliefs that abortion is wrong. It is more important to save the life of a fetus than to worry about the consequences therein, and now they don't have to fear consequences of their actions. How can you support a bill that would effectively allow a doctor to be medically unethical without consequence?



Can a doctor be chanrged criminally for withholding information? In my experience, the medical review board is hesitant to take licenses from other doctors.

What recourse does someone have other than that?
Exactly what I am saying - if a doctor is going to lie this bill isn't going to change that. What do you have to back up the assertion that there would be no consequence? This just eliminate a certain cause of action. This bill was supported by both sides - not just conservative republicans. There are a lot of problems with the wrongful life and wrongful birth cause of actions. Did you know that many states don't allow for wrongful birth causes of action at all? Why are you all just jumping up and down about OK? because they allowed wrongful birth causes of action and now they are trying to stop that practice? what about all the states that never allowed in the first place? do you even know if your state allows it? Seriously stop being so dramatic -
people always complain about pro-life propaganda - if an ignorant person read through these posts she would think the bill somehow allows doctors lie and that this is some crazy law to trick women into having babies.

umm....wrongful life and wrongful birth actions are not criminal charges! if that is what you were saying - not sure.
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