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An article I read...


Abortion Debate

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  #1  
August 9th, 2006, 09:45 AM
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I just read this article (it's not from a pro-life site, but I'm not sure how reliable this source is) that was pretty disturbing. Personally, I don't feel an abortion should be done past 8 weeks but I know a lot of you disagree. I find the idea of giving a fetus a lethal injection to ensure it won't survive outside of the womb disturbing to say the least-if there is any chance of survival why not give the baby that chance? If it is unwanted give it up for adoption?? I just don't understand, I was wondering what your thoughts were. Here is the article:
http://health.dailynewscentral.com/c...ew/0001453/40/
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  #2  
August 9th, 2006, 09:53 AM
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I can't see the article for some reason, but as you probably know I am against abortion at any stage.

I don't know what the article said--is this just another form of abortion?
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  #3  
August 9th, 2006, 09:55 AM
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Live Births After 18 Weeks Stir Abortion Ethics Debate
07 August, 2005 17:14 GMT


A number of babies have been born alive after only 18 weeks of pregnancy, research has revealed. Dozens more have survived terminations even though they were younger than 24 weeks -- the upper age limit for abortions.
Some were able to move around, breathe normally and even cry out. Many lived for more than an hour, and one survived for four-and-a-half hours.

Campaigners said yesterday that the research, led by Dr. Shantala Vadeyar from St. Mary's Hospital in Manchester, provides powerful new evidence for bringing the upper limit for abortions down from 24 weeks.

Audible Cries

No official national figures are collected on the number of babies who are born alive and then die following abortions in the UK.

Past reports suggested there were probably only a handful of cases each year. But the new findings reveal there have been 31 cases in the North-West alone between 1996 and 2001.

The study, published in the British Journal of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, revealed that some of the babies who initially survived terminations were only in the 18th week of pregnancy and more than half were under 22 weeks.

In the 31 cases they studied, babies lived for between five minutes and four hours 36 minutes after the termination.

Although 14 of the babies had only a heartbeat, in four cases there were regular breathing movements. In two cases there was a gasp and another two babies gave out an audible cry.

Dr. Vadeyar said women should be told there is a chance a baby could be born alive following an abortion and what this entails.

'Deeply Distressing'

Currently abortion for non-medical reasons is legal up to the 24th week of pregnancy. Terminations can also be performed at any stage if the child would have a severe mental or physical disability.

But following emotive images of babies "walking in the womb" and studies showing almost half of premature babies born at 23 weeks survive, there have been calls for the 24-week limit to be cut to 22 weeks.

Dr. Trevor Stammers, senior lecturer in general practice at St. George's University Hospital in London, said the latest research was "deeply distressing."

"I know of obstetricians who have been doing abortions for many years who have broken down saying they cannot carry on any more," he said.

"Despite all attempts at emotional neutrality, the heart does not work that way when you get a baby in front of you that colleagues on another floor of the same building would be trying to keep alive. For the parents it must be extremely upsetting, as it is for the doctors."

The antiabortion charity Life said the fact that this is happening in one region would indicate there are many more cases throughout the UK.

Spokesman Jane Ingram said: "What was done to help these babies during this time? I hope that at the very least they were given appropriate pain relief and palliative care."

Lethal Injection

If an abortion is performed after 22 weeks, doctors should give the baby a lethal injection while it is still in the womb, unless it has a condition that means it definitely will not live.

Below this age so-called "feticide" is not deemed necessary as the baby is thought to be unable to survive.

However, the researchers said that in 12 cases, where the fetus should have been killed in the womb, this was not done. This may be because the doctor did not know the law or thought it would prove more upsetting and invasive for the women.

Fiona Pinto of the Pro-Life Alliance said: "This research shows that there must be an urgent review of the abortion laws. I do not think feticide is acceptable to people in this country. I do not think people even know it happens. I do not think it is enough to rely on midwives and doctors to regulate this themselves."

A Department of Health spokesman said experts monitored any new research but there were no current plans to change the abortion laws.
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  #4  
August 9th, 2006, 09:57 AM
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I think the term "lethal injection" is used to stir an image of criminal behavior and capital punishment; in light of this, it is hard to see beyond those words. HEre we have an article talking about (at different times in the article) fetuses from 18 weeks to 24 weeks (which encompasses nonviable and viable) so that is a problem; you can't really speak about "fetuses born alive" in an 18 week situation because there is no medical way, right now, that that baby will survive. This is complicated by them not linking TO THE STUDY but rather to the content page of the issue which makes it nigh impossible to find the study they are talking about to critique it (I don't have the time to click each and every abstract to try and decifer what article they are talking about)

Towards the end of the article, it focuses more on 22-24 weeks but doesn't say the reason these festuses were aborted, and, again, we can't do anything but take their word for it unless you want to spend a few hours trying to find the study they are talking about.
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  #5  
August 9th, 2006, 10:27 AM
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Ok...Am I understanding this? A baby is aborted, it doesn't work and the baby is born alive, so they then use lethal injection?
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  #6  
August 9th, 2006, 10:31 AM
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the argument is, I think, that all abortions after 22 weeks should require the fetus be given an injection of some kind to ensure they are not extracted alive(or otherwise taken from the body- we aren't told here what methods were used in this study because you can't read the actual study). For all we know, the families chose to have the baby via induction because the baby was going to die anyway but they didn't want an abortion...
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  #7  
August 9th, 2006, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
the argument is, I think, that all abortions after 22 weeks should require the fetus be given an injection of some kind to ensure they are not extracted alive(or otherwise taken from the body- we aren't told her what methods were used in this study because you can't read the actual study). For all we know, the families chose to have the baby via induction because the baby was going to die anyway but they didn't want an abortion...[/b]

Thats what I was wondering...in that case I would understand. I wish they linked the study though also I know abortions in the UK are legal up to 24 weeks so that might not always be the case...
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  #8  
August 9th, 2006, 10:41 AM
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I wish they linked the study though also I know abortions in the UK are legal up to 24 weeks so that might not always be the case...[/b]
It's funny because it doesn't seem that easy to find...
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  #9  
August 9th, 2006, 10:54 AM
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I think maybe the topics in this board shouldn't be visible well reading heated debates. This makes me want to puke. I try to stay out of here becuase it just bothers me so much I would rather not know that people think this crap is alright but the topic title sucked me in.
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  #10  
August 9th, 2006, 11:00 AM
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Hmm.. I just can't seem to understand why people refuse to look outside their own information about a subject.. It's easy to have an opinion we know nothing about.

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  #11  
August 9th, 2006, 11:04 AM
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Just the term "Lethal Injection" for a baby sounds really cruel. Again, I'd like to know the reason why they do this. I can't imagine this child being birthed and out of the womb, and be in some incredable pain, just be put to the side, and wait until death comes.

If someone does choose to abort their child, I would only wish for that child that it be a painless death.
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  #12  
August 9th, 2006, 11:05 AM
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For all we know the study was done on women who had fetuses who would not make it to term and, thus, chose induction or some method they thought was best for them and their grief process. Even if the law says they can have abortion until 24 weeks, we don't knoow if the study was about festuses who were truly "aborted" (that is, a procedure performed on them to kill them which was unsuccessful) or if the study was simply about fetuses "aborted" in the sense that the mother had an early induction for a fetus that would not reach term (or would die anyway). So, we don't really know if these "alive babies' or "gasps for air" were from unethical abortions (becuase, personally, I would feel them to be unethical if they were suppose to kill the fetus and failed) or inductions for serious fetal abnormalities.
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  #13  
August 9th, 2006, 11:06 AM
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Agreed. I sent them an email asking for more information on the study.
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  #14  
August 9th, 2006, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Just the term "Lethal Injection" for a baby sounds really cruel. Again, I'd like to know the reason why they do this. I can't imagine this child being birthed and out of the womb, and be in some incredable pain, just be put to the side, and wait until death comes.

If someone does choose to abort their child, I would only wish for that child that it be a painless death.[/b]
It seems the injection is done while still in the womb. I'm not sure. I hesitate to form a conclusion based on such limited information, but as they are done up to 24 weeks in the UK, I can see where they would do this. I guess to make it less traumatic or something. I can only imagine a fetus being born and gasping for air would be incredibly horrible to witness...
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  #15  
August 9th, 2006, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Hmm.. I just can't seem to understand why people refuse to look outside their own information about a subject.. It's easy to have an opinion we know nothing about.[/b]
Just becuase my opinion differs from yours does not mean I don't know anything. I can't understand how anyone thinks abortion is just fine and dandy but I certainly don't insinuate they are ignorant on the subject.
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  #16  
August 9th, 2006, 11:53 AM
mrobinson
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Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
Hmm.. I just can't seem to understand why people refuse to look outside their own information about a subject.. It's easy to have an opinion we know nothing about.[/b]
Just becuase my opinion differs from yours does not mean I don't know anything. I can't understand how anyone thinks abortion is just fine and dandy but I certainly don't insinuate they are ignorant on the subject.
[/b][/quote]

Then instead of coming on here and blasting everyone's opinion who is pro-choice, why don't you actually debate the subject?

Quote:
I think maybe the topics in this board shouldn't be visible well reading heated debates. This makes me want to puke. I try to stay out of here becuase it just bothers me so much I would rather not know that people think this crap is alright but the topic title sucked me in.[/b]
Unless this is nice talk?
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  #17  
August 9th, 2006, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
Hmm.. I just can't seem to understand why people refuse to look outside their own information about a subject.. It's easy to have an opinion we know nothing about.[/b]
Just becuase my opinion differs from yours does not mean I don't know anything. I can't understand how anyone thinks abortion is just fine and dandy but I certainly don't insinuate they are ignorant on the subject.
[/b][/quote]


Ok, for the record not everyone who is pro choice thinks abortion is "fine and dandy" pro-choice doesn't mean pro abortion, there is a huge spectrum of opinions on this subject, and I have yet to see one person say "Yeah, abortion is awesome!" it's usually more of "we accept that it is an unfortunate necessary evil on our current society, and will happen regardless of whether it is legal or not, and want to keep it as safe as possible."
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  #18  
August 9th, 2006, 01:09 PM
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Like I said I don't want to debate the subject it bothers me so I try and stay away from here. But when I open heated debates and see a topic title that talks about killing babies by lethal injhection it pisses me off.
I happen to think it is ignornat when people refuse to accept the fact that they are killing babies or say it is propaganda when pictures of those dead babies are thrown in there faces.. I try to keep that to myself though.
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  #19  
August 9th, 2006, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
I think maybe the topics in this board shouldn't be visible well reading heated debates. This makes me want to puke. I try to stay out of here becuase it just bothers me so much I would rather not know that people think this crap is alright but the topic title sucked me in.[/b]

Quote:
I happen to think it is ignornat when people refuse to accept the fact that they are killing babies or say it is propaganda when pictures of those dead babies are thrown in there faces.. I try to keep that to myself though.[/b]
Keep trying!
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  #20  
August 9th, 2006, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Like I said I don't want to debate the subject it bothers me so I try and stay away from here. But when I open heated debates and see a topic title that talks about killing babies by lethal injhection it pisses me off.
I happen to think it is ignornat when people refuse to accept the fact that they are killing babies or say it is propaganda when pictures of those dead babies are thrown in there faces.. I try to keep that to myself though .[/b]

Like you just did? there is sooo much more to this subject than that, the fact that you are coming here and blasting people for their opinions when you don't even know where they are coming from, to me that is ignorant. I don't like the lethal injection thing either, thats why I posted this, but like I said it might be for babies that have no chance of survival anyways, who knows? I'm pro-choice, but I don't think I'm ignorant, thank you.
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