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Ok, So Why Would Someone Who Is Prochoice


Abortion Debate

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  #2  
August 16th, 2006, 06:35 PM
Tanya G's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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I dont really understand why you cant understand this lol. I am pro-choice. I believe that a mother unprepared to be a mother and socially incapable of carrying to term to adopt out, is best of having an abortion. I wont get into all the details of that, but in that instance(or in cases of rape) I think its best for the baby, to be aborted EARLY (I am against abortions after 13 weeks-I believe here in Canada thats the latest you can do it unless its medical). That said. Once a woman decides to keep the baby, it is SICK in my opinion to intentionally harm that unborn baby. Yes call me crazy that I think its ok to "kill" a baby in the womb and not ok to mess it up for life, but thats what its all about. The aborted baby doesnt have to suffer a lifetime of illness, whereas the baby who was kept inside the bodyof an alcoholic has to suffer a lifetime of being perpetually drunk(that is what they say its like to have FAS). In my opinion, if you do not have the self-controle to stop drinking and doing drugs(such as cocaine etc) then this is an instance where you should have an abortion.

Again, If the mother has chosen to keep this baby,she owes it to the baby to stay healthy during pregnancy. Just because a person is pro-choice does not mean that we think babies dont have rights inside the womb. It also doesnt mean that we dont see that baby as alive.

Why do I think this way? Because I believe a soul is a soul and a soul is not lost in an aborted baby. but hey that is a whole other topic of debate.
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  #4  
August 16th, 2006, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
If the baby really isn't a baby, why does it even matter if the woman chooses to drink? Or smoke cigarettes? Or consume large amounts of caffeine? I mean, it isn't human, so therefore doesn't have any rights, right?[/b]

no prochoicer will argue that the fetus is not a developing life.

Alcohol negatively affects the fetus and continues to throughout development, rights or no rights.

Thought from other thread:

Quote:
1) If you are chosing to have your child, not taking care of it in it's early stages affects it into adulthood.
2) Support of choice is not support of the action. I support the right to choose but I do not agree with abortion. I work to make it safe and rare.
3) Even if you are considering or want an abortion, you should not drink. You may change your mind.
4) abortion can be seen as having absolute necessity in some cases...I see no cases where alcohol consumption has htis feature

Alcohol affects the fetus. I do not have to believe that the fetus is a human life to believe that. It's like me telling a man he should not drink because it deteriorates his sperm. It's not something that affects porlife/prochoice.

Another way of looking at it- saying a pregnant woman shouldn't drink says nothing about the human life status of the fetus.[/b]
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  #6  
August 16th, 2006, 07:03 PM
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Scientific fact:

Alcohol negatively affects the fetus and continues to do so throughout development.


Soooo...what does this have to do with rights? IT's not about rights...not evry subject is about rights. for example, if we hold you argument to be true, you could say "hey, the fetus 'supposedly' doesn't have rights, why do we need OBs?" see the logical leap?

Or another example "sperm don't have rights, why should you take care of them? (by taking care of your body)" see it?
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  #8  
August 16th, 2006, 07:11 PM
Tanya G's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Tanya, actually I put it in my post that I wasn't referring to people who are prochoice and still think it is a baby/life/soul/etc.

I am specifically talking to prochoicers who believe that it is NOT a baby, and does not have a right to life. And there are some people who have posted these opinions.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
why would anyone who is prochoice, (and also think that the baby is not human and doesn't have a right to life....(I understand that some prochoice people think that it is still a baby, but that it is not their place to tell another woman "what to do with her body"), have a care at all in this matter?[/b]

Quote:
Once a woman decides to keep the baby, it is SICK in my opinion to intentionally harm that unborn baby. Yes call me crazy that I think its ok to "kill" a baby in the womb and not ok to mess it up for life,[/b]
Yea, I dunno, that sounds twisted to me....Ok, so what about the woman who is unsure if she wants an abortion, but is leaning to it, and still drinks? She might not have an abortion...what about those babies? If knowing that she still might have an abortion, would it be ok to drink then?

If you do acknowledge it as a baby, (which, actually, I haven't read enough of your posts to know and/or assume exactly where you stand on this), why IS it ok to kill the baby one way, and not another?

Would it be ok if she drank enough for the baby to be miscarried? I mean, it is the same end result, right? Being drunk will not kill a woman, (unless she has alcohol poisoning), but any amount of alcohol could potentially kill a baby and result in miscarriage. Miscarriage ends in a dead baby, and so does abortion, so that should be completely fine, right?

Again, I really don't mean to come across as rude; I just want some honest opinions/POV's.

Thanks.
[/b][/quote]


Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
no prochoicer will argue that the fetus is not a developing life.[/b]
Yet, I have definitely heard people say that it is definitely not a life. Not at all. No rights. So if it doesn't have any rights, I don't understand why someone would be opposed to it?? It really should be that someone who thought the baby doesn't have any rights and/or is not human, that they shouldn't be concerned until after the baby is born. Because it doesn't have any rights until the baby is born, and not before. So it shouldn't matter during the pregnancy, but after the birth, kwim?
[/b][/quote]

I guess I cannot comment on alot of these things. I am not an avid abortion debater and dont visit this debate board very often so I dont know how alot of pro-choicers feel but I have never heard anyone in real life... say that a baby or fetus has no rights outright. I think in most cases its more commonly seen that the mother has more rights or that the circumstances under which the child would be brought into the world would be in the best benefit of the mother and or child to have an abortion.

I see that you bolded my word kill, yes i used that on purpose. I do not debate that abortion is killing a baby.
In the situation you give, where a woman is undecided on having an abortion or not i personally think its very irresponsible for her to drink. If she then decides to keep the baby she will have to endure the rest of her pregnancy worrying about FAS and possibly have to deal with that guilt the rest of her life if her baby does get FAS. In this instance the woman should abstain from alcohol and drugs while she is considering her decision.

I would not agree with a woman drinking such an excessive amount as to miscarry her baby. We live in an educated society where women are aware that alcohol is bad(I am not debating the other debate here on one or two glasses here and there, but binge drinking is a well known no no during pregnancy). IF a woman decides to keep her baby and then procedes to drink enough to miscarry I just have to wonder what the heck is going on in that womans mind because she clearly didnt want to keep it afterall if she is being that irresponsible.

You bring up a good point, its just I cant understand why a woman would chose to keep her baby and then do that. It sounds more like a self inflicted abortion than a miscarriage.

Why do I think that its ok to abort but not to drink like this? Because even if I believe it should be a woman's right to chose, it doesnt mean that I also think women should have the right to essentially ABUSE their children in-utero, which in my opinion you are doing to an EXTREME if you are drinking and or doing drugs while pregnant. You are abusing your child because you are permanently damaging them physically and mentally.
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  #9  
August 16th, 2006, 07:21 PM
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The abortion question is about rights (amongst other things).

The alcohol issue is about scientific factual damage to the fetus. Aka, not about rights.

The damage doesn't begin when the fetus gains rights (viability or whenever this hypothetical person decides the fetus has rights).


Like I said, using this illogical question that you put forth would be the same as saying "sperm don't have rights, why take care of them?"

Quote:
Ok, so what about the woman who is unsure if she wants an abortion, but is leaning to it, and still drinks? She might not have an abortion...what about those babies? If knowing that she still might have an abortion, would it be ok to drink then?[/b]
Pregnant women should not drink, period. ABortion is not 100%, people change their minds. Not a risk I am willing to take, even in opinion or on paper.

Quote:
Isn't this all about choice and freedom??[/b]
Sure it is. BUT BUT BUT- you have the choice to drink, that doesn't make it the right thing to do. That doesn't negate all the scientific evidence against drinking during pregnancy.

Quote:
If you do acknowledge it as a baby, (which, actually, I haven't read enough of your posts to know and/or assume exactly where you stand on this), why IS it ok to kill the baby one way, and not another?[/b]
Because of safety of the mother, because of medical ethics, because of the unrelability and the effects on the fetus...this list goes on...

Quote:
Would it be ok if she drank enough for the baby to be miscarried? I mean, it is the same end result, right? Being drunk will not kill a woman, (unless she has alcohol poisoning), but any amount of alcohol could potentially kill a baby and result in miscarriage. Miscarriage ends in a dead baby, and so does abortion, so that should be completely fine, right?[/b]
No, it's not the same result. That's like saying "we could amputate his leg with a chainsaw- it would end in the same result."
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  #11  
August 16th, 2006, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Therefore, they shouldn't be concerned until the time of viability, etc., when the fetus has rights.[/b]
Why? are you contending that we should only not damage something when it has the right not to be damaged?
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  #13  
August 16th, 2006, 07:32 PM
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Being prochoice doesn't mean "I'm for abortion in any form." This is absurd...

Quote:
Miscarriage ends in a dead baby, and so does abortion, so that should be completely fine, right?[/b]
Ok ...slowly...

Misscarriage ends in dead baby. Drinking baby to death ends in dead baby.


Amputating with a scapel and perscribed medical methods ends in amputated leg. Cutting a leg off with a chainsaw ends in amputated leg.

See the anaolgy?

It's not completely fine!
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  #15  
August 16th, 2006, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
Why? are you contending that we should only not damage something when it has the right not to be damaged?[/b]
Rights is exactly what we are talking about here. To stand your ground, your last statement then, would be true.
[/b][/quote]

To stand my ground, I have to believe that we can damaged anything we want as long as it doesn't have rights?
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  #17  
August 16th, 2006, 07:38 PM
Tanya G's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
Why do I think that its ok to abort but not to drink like this? Because even if I believe it should be a woman's right to chose, it doesnt mean that I also think women should have the right to essentially ABUSE their children in-utero, which in my opinion you are doing to an EXTREME if you are drinking and or doing drugs while pregnant. You are abusing your child because you are permanently damaging them physically and mentally.[/b]
So, hypothetically, it would be more "humane" to shoot a mentally-challenged child in the head than to let it live his/her life?

I don't mean to offend anyone, I am just seriously trying to understand.
[/b][/quote]

umm no... where did you gather that i would feel that way based on what you quoted?

The point is, legally a woman DOES have the right to chose. And if she choses to keep her baby WHY would she chose to also handicap it!

Furthermore, being pro-choice does not equal pro-abortion, nor does it equal pro hurting babies.
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  #19  
August 16th, 2006, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
Amputating with a scapel and perscribed medical methods ends in amputated leg. Cutting a leg off with a chainsaw ends in amputated leg.[/b]
Are you implying that a miscarriage is more dangerous? I beg to differ. I think what you are getting to, is that an abortion is quicker, not safer.
[/b][/quote]


No....my analogy was to show how completely idiotic your idea that drinking a baby to death could ever logically be the same as miscarriage or abortion procedures to a person who believes the fetus is not yet a full human....

I have changed this line to read "how completely meritless your idea that drinking..."
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
To stand my ground, I have to believe that we can damaged anything we want as long as it doesn't have rights?[/b]
Yes.
[/b][/quote]

Why?
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