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A question for people who say a baby is not a baby until born


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  #21  
October 8th, 2006, 03:26 PM
Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Stuff to help servive ( quality of life) is diffrent then needed to servive. Yes I am talking about premies<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
I guess if you believe that human life begins after 37 weeks gestation[/b]
or any other age that can sevive w/o michians. I feel until this stage it should be up to the parent.

Until out of the body I see a pre-born as simbiots. Weather (-,-)both harmed (0,+) mother not effected in a positive or negitive way "child" grows, (+,+) both mother and child are effected positively (mother most healthy when pregnant) or (-,+) mother sick baby heathly. I know simbiots are diffrent spices that's why I said LIKE or Similar. Personally to me babies aren't human until they're more than instincts there more like animals. However I feel animal have ever right to live and be treated well so.

It's just more grey area to me then most.
[/b][/quote]

This is an interesting theory. Have you read works by people like Peter Singer? or other "sentient" arguments? If so, do you find yourself in that camp?
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  #22  
October 8th, 2006, 03:30 PM
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I read a little about him. However I don't agree that animals and humans (that can think more then instices) are equail but I do agree with everything else. Thank-you. He's able to put it a lot less blunt then I do.
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  #23  
October 8th, 2006, 03:53 PM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quoted from Miguel's mommmy - but I can't seem to work these stuipid quote thingies...

Quote:
Stuff to help servive ( quality of life) is diffrent then needed to servive. Yes I am talking about premies[/b]
I don't see a difference - medical assistance versus actually feeding numerous times a day, clothing, etc...it's all needed.... Not all preemies need machines more than an infant with jaundice needs a lamp or a baby born with infection may need IV's.

Quote:
I guess if you believe that human life begins after 37 weeks gestation or any other age that can sevive w/o michians. I feel until this stage it should be up to the parent.[/b]
I guess I need your definition of machines...do you mean actual machines for breathing etc, or also oxygen enriched environments, or heating lamps, or IV's...how are you defining machines?

Quote:
Until out of the body I see a pre-born as simbiots. Weather (-,-)both harmed (0,+) mother not effected in a positive or negitive way "child" grows, (+,+) both mother and child are effected positively (mother most healthy when pregnant) or (-,+) mother sick baby heathly. I know simbiots are diffrent spices that's why I said LIKE or Similar. Personally to me babies aren't human until they're more than instincts there more like animals. However I feel animal have ever right to live and be treated well so.

It's just more grey area to me then most.[/b]
A baby at 40 weeks is still nothing but instinct...they aren't consciously aware of their individuality or able to communicate in any conscious way. That does develop - but at birth - their cries are instinct, their reflexes are just that - reflexes. I guess I just don't see at which point you can determine when they are more than reflx & instinct in any definitive matter unless it were to be assessed on an individual developmental basis.
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We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters. ~Gloria Steinem

If a man has been his mother's undisputed darling he retains throughout life the triumphant feeling, the confidence in success, which not seldom brings actual success along with it. ~Sigmund Freud
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Don't wait to make your son a great man - make him a great boy. ~Author Unknown
You don't raise heroes, you raise sons. And if you treat them like sons, they'll turn out to be heroes, even if it's just in your own eyes. ~Walter M. Schirra, Sr.
A man loves his sweetheart the most, his wife the best, but his mother the longest. ~Irish Proverb
Mother's love is peace. It need not be acquired, it need not be deserved. ~Erich Fromm
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it. - Harold Hulbert
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  #24  
October 8th, 2006, 04:03 PM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
Are these the same type of laws that deny "right to die" or are they all different?[/b]
No - these are the same laws that challenge a parents right to deny medical treatment based on religious affiliation (such as Christian Scientist parents who won't let a child recieve chemotherapy, antibiotics, etc - of course there are those in the faith that do accept medical assistance, as there are those Catholics that accept abortion - but I am speaking to a scenario when the law might otherwise be enforced).

(I just wanted to clarify as I don't want to come across to speak from autorty on teh religion itelf - just wanting to use an example for the sake of why the law may be used).
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We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters. ~Gloria Steinem

If a man has been his mother's undisputed darling he retains throughout life the triumphant feeling, the confidence in success, which not seldom brings actual success along with it. ~Sigmund Freud
My mom is a neverending song in my heart of comfort, happiness, and being. I may sometimes forget the words but I always remember the tune. ~Graycie Harmon
Don't wait to make your son a great man - make him a great boy. ~Author Unknown
You don't raise heroes, you raise sons. And if you treat them like sons, they'll turn out to be heroes, even if it's just in your own eyes. ~Walter M. Schirra, Sr.
A man loves his sweetheart the most, his wife the best, but his mother the longest. ~Irish Proverb
Mother's love is peace. It need not be acquired, it need not be deserved. ~Erich Fromm
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it. - Harold Hulbert
Mother is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children. ~William Makepeace Thackeray
God could not be everywhere, so he created mothers. ~Jewish Proverb
The best conversations with mothers always take place in silence, when only the heart speaks. ~Carrie Latet




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  #25  
October 8th, 2006, 04:05 PM
Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: ohio
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Quote:
A baby at 40 weeks is still nothing but instinct...they aren't consciously aware of their individuality or able to communicate in any conscious way[/b]
that's why I refer to out of the body as babies and pre-born as still in the womb or in incubators.
Quote:
Not all preemies need machines more than an infant with jaundice needs a lamp or a baby born with infection may need IV's.[/b]
Right there for in my opinon they're not premies. Premies require life preserving treatment.
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  #26  
October 8th, 2006, 04:07 PM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
Right there for in my opinon they're not premies. Premies require life preserving treatment.[/b]
That is strictly opinion then - becaue my nephew was a preemie & needed no life preserving treatment other than a lamp.
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B - Crazy momma to my two boys
We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters. ~Gloria Steinem

If a man has been his mother's undisputed darling he retains throughout life the triumphant feeling, the confidence in success, which not seldom brings actual success along with it. ~Sigmund Freud
My mom is a neverending song in my heart of comfort, happiness, and being. I may sometimes forget the words but I always remember the tune. ~Graycie Harmon
Don't wait to make your son a great man - make him a great boy. ~Author Unknown
You don't raise heroes, you raise sons. And if you treat them like sons, they'll turn out to be heroes, even if it's just in your own eyes. ~Walter M. Schirra, Sr.
A man loves his sweetheart the most, his wife the best, but his mother the longest. ~Irish Proverb
Mother's love is peace. It need not be acquired, it need not be deserved. ~Erich Fromm
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it. - Harold Hulbert
Mother is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children. ~William Makepeace Thackeray
God could not be everywhere, so he created mothers. ~Jewish Proverb
The best conversations with mothers always take place in silence, when only the heart speaks. ~Carrie Latet




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  #27  
October 8th, 2006, 04:11 PM
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So your nefew is not a premie in my eyes. I also don't feel pregnant people who take medication to develop there child's lungs because of pre-trem labor and there child has fully developed lungs upon birth to be premies.
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  #28  
October 8th, 2006, 04:20 PM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
So your nefew is not a premie in my eyes. I also don't feel pregnant people who take medication to develop there child's lungs because of pre-trem labor and there child has fully developed lungs upon birth to be premies.[/b]
I get what you are saying - what I am saying is that there is no actual way to back that up. My nephew was a preemie, he was born at 29 weeks - ANY Dr, any medical journal, will TELL you that he was a preemie. Preemie is not a term used to describe viability - it is a term that is used to describe how far a baby was in-utero gestationally. Now if you want to say he was ugly - we could argue that - as each person can have their own definition of beauty (which BTW he WAS pretty ugly - but he's darling now )...but how do you arrive at believing you can personally have your own definition of preemie?
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B - Crazy momma to my two boys
We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters. ~Gloria Steinem

If a man has been his mother's undisputed darling he retains throughout life the triumphant feeling, the confidence in success, which not seldom brings actual success along with it. ~Sigmund Freud
My mom is a neverending song in my heart of comfort, happiness, and being. I may sometimes forget the words but I always remember the tune. ~Graycie Harmon
Don't wait to make your son a great man - make him a great boy. ~Author Unknown
You don't raise heroes, you raise sons. And if you treat them like sons, they'll turn out to be heroes, even if it's just in your own eyes. ~Walter M. Schirra, Sr.
A man loves his sweetheart the most, his wife the best, but his mother the longest. ~Irish Proverb
Mother's love is peace. It need not be acquired, it need not be deserved. ~Erich Fromm
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it. - Harold Hulbert
Mother is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children. ~William Makepeace Thackeray
God could not be everywhere, so he created mothers. ~Jewish Proverb
The best conversations with mothers always take place in silence, when only the heart speaks. ~Carrie Latet




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  #29  
October 8th, 2006, 05:31 PM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 34
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
No I don't think there alive yet.[/b]
Um, all I can say is

My child WAS a child when she needed to be in the NICU...SHE WAS A CHILD...A LIVING BREATHING CHILD.

Just because she was in a warm environment to stabilize her temps...that means she wasn't alive?? Because she needed a ventilator to breathe for awhile, she wasn't alive? Ha...I beg to differ....STRONGLY.
[/b][/quote]

yeah, that girl doesn't make any sense.It doesn't matter if you need help to breathe or not, if you are breathing you are alive, it is common sense!.
people of all ages can be and are on oxygen to help them and they are very much alive.
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  #30  
October 8th, 2006, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
<div class='quotemain'>No I don't think there alive yet.[/b]
Um, all I can say is

My child WAS a child when she needed to be in the NICU...SHE WAS A CHILD...A LIVING BREATHING CHILD.

Just because she was in a warm environment to stabilize her temps...that means she wasn't alive?? Because she needed a ventilator to breathe for awhile, she wasn't alive? Ha...I beg to differ....STRONGLY.
[/b][/quote]

yeah, that girl doesn't make any sense.It doesn't matter if you need help to breathe or not, if you are breathing you are alive, it is common sense!.
people of all ages can be and are on oxygen to help them and they are very much alive.
[/b][/quote]

Does she make no sense or does she have a different way of looking things than you and you can't deal with that? I don't agree with her per-se but she has clearly put a lot of thought into her reasoning and I respect her point of view. I don't know why that is such a foreign concept to some people...
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  #31  
October 8th, 2006, 08:21 PM
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A long time ago I read this paper written by a woman that talked about her ideas on when life begins which were a lot like miguelsmommy's. I cannot for the life of me remember the woman's name, but she was a lot better at presenting the position than Singer was (and she differed a lot on some points). I do remember she ended up having to write an "add on" section to the paper to say how she did not believe in infanticide and explain how her position differed from that. This ring a bell with anyone else?
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  #32  
October 8th, 2006, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
but how do you arrive at believing you can personally have your own definition of preemie?[/b]
We all have our own definition for everything, it's called perspective. Everything is subjective if two people are looking at things they'll see two diffrent things. Try it some time look at a painting with friends or family and see how diffrent what you see is it's best done with an abstract.

I'm sorry I have such a hard time explaining my veiw
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  #33  
October 8th, 2006, 09:02 PM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
but how do you arrive at believing you can personally have your own definition of preemie?[/b]
We all have our own definition for everything, it's called perspective. Everything is subjective if two people are looking at things they'll see two diffrent things. Try it some time look at a painting with friends or family and see how diffrent what you see is it's best done with an abstract.

I'm sorry I have such a hard time explaining my veiw
[/b][/quote]
It's not actually your view that I don't understand... I understand perspective completely, I understand differing of opinions, I am an intelligent, articulate woman & as an artist as well - I certainly know we all see something different in the same painting. Perhaps my problem here in debating with you is that you are arguing terms that are medical..like "preemie". Preemie is a medical term that applies to ALL babies of a particular gestational age at time of delivery/birth. Born is an action that takes place when a baby leaves a womb. These aren't necessarily arguable definitions - as they are the ONLY definitions of these terms. Viability might be a better term for you to use - if you are simply saying you believe a child has no rights prior to age of viability....but even that medically is basically if the child can/does survive after birth...but it's closer to what you are trying to state. Perhaps you can just say you don't consider the baby to have any legal rights until a certain point, or something else, I don't know. But I do know what constitutes a preemie & what doesn't, whether medical intervention is needed or not needed isn't any part of that definition, but it is unfortunately common in that circumstance. What is getting to me in the debate is that it is similar to arguing what a vagina is - it either is a vagina or it isn't, we can't really argue what defines a vagina as that has already been established medically...maybe that clarifies what I am trying to say. I am saying preemie is what it is, born is what it is - so where is the line then - viability??
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B - Crazy momma to my two boys
We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters. ~Gloria Steinem

If a man has been his mother's undisputed darling he retains throughout life the triumphant feeling, the confidence in success, which not seldom brings actual success along with it. ~Sigmund Freud
My mom is a neverending song in my heart of comfort, happiness, and being. I may sometimes forget the words but I always remember the tune. ~Graycie Harmon
Don't wait to make your son a great man - make him a great boy. ~Author Unknown
You don't raise heroes, you raise sons. And if you treat them like sons, they'll turn out to be heroes, even if it's just in your own eyes. ~Walter M. Schirra, Sr.
A man loves his sweetheart the most, his wife the best, but his mother the longest. ~Irish Proverb
Mother's love is peace. It need not be acquired, it need not be deserved. ~Erich Fromm
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it. - Harold Hulbert
Mother is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children. ~William Makepeace Thackeray
God could not be everywhere, so he created mothers. ~Jewish Proverb
The best conversations with mothers always take place in silence, when only the heart speaks. ~Carrie Latet




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  #34  
October 8th, 2006, 11:35 PM
Mega Super Mommy
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re-define it then...
Pre-born or medical intervention, Parents desition
infance (pre-human more animalistic)
older infant/toddler (Human)
now I feel that it's the parents desition until infancy.
Then it's trial basic at the animalistic stage (If parent can't handle it adoptions no problem)
Then human
Would I get an abortion at 29 weeks NO (I would only up to 9 weeks) but it should be aloud.
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  #36  
October 9th, 2006, 09:55 PM
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There are scientific arguments about life and then there are philosophical arguments (and, of course, not all are mutually exclusive). I think Miguelsmommmy's argument would be more on the philosophical side...it reminds me of arguments of "personhood" rather than "human status." So, instead of giving the "right to life" to any human, the right to life is given only to humans who are also deemed "persons." And the philsophical idea of what a person is changes with each theory. I talked about Peter Singer before, he believes personhood requires certain traits such as sentience.

So, in these theories, the fetus is often deemed human in the sense of its DNA but it has not yet reached "personhood."
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  #37  
October 10th, 2006, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
There are scientific arguments about life and then there are philosophical arguments (and, of course, not all are mutually exclusive). I think Miguelsmommmy's argument would be more on the philosophical side...it reminds me of arguments of "personhood" rather than "human status." So, instead of giving the "right to life" to any human, the right to life is given only to humans who are also deemed "persons." And the philsophical idea of what a person is changes with each theory. I talked about Peter Singer before, he believes personhood requires certain traits such as sentience.[/b]
Thank-you
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  #39  
October 11th, 2006, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
I was in an incubater too. No I don't think there alive yet. Why because if they were taken out most likely they'd die. (Yes I'm talking about me too.) Would you blame a parent that took there kid off the souport? That's why I feel that they araen't alive yet. unless the "child" can live on there own.[/b]
That's the craziest crap I've heard in a long time!
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  #40  
October 11th, 2006, 08:38 PM
Mega Super Mommy
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why?
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