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A question for people who say a baby is not a baby until born


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  #1  
September 27th, 2006, 07:19 AM
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I don't understand how you can say that, when babies are born and survive at 27 weeks and up.If the baby is a human at 27 weeks then what makes them any more human at 39 or 40 weeks? There is alot of age between 27 and 39 weeks. I don't want to hear about the quality of life either because my friends sister just had her baby by emergency at 27 weeks in January and she was only in the hospital for a few weeks and is doing great.
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  #2  
September 27th, 2006, 07:33 AM
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I am in the "developing life" camp; however, I believe, due to brain waves (sentient possibilities), pain reception, and ability to leave outside the womb, 3rd trimester fetuses have more distinction in our law and for good reason. So I guess I would not be the type of person you are asking this question to. While I still find that there are reasons to allow late term abortions, I agree with the restrictions and processes for these.
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  #3  
September 27th, 2006, 10:05 AM
kadydid
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I am in the "developing life" camp; however, I believe, due to brain waves (sentient possibilities), pain reception, and ability to leave outside the womb, 3rd trimester fetuses have more distinction in our law and for good reason. So I guess I would not be the type of person you are asking this question to. While I still find that there are reasons to allow late term abortions, I agree with the restrictions and processes for these.[/b]
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  #4  
September 27th, 2006, 05:17 PM
mrobinson
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I think it's an awesome example of modern medical science that in theory we can have fetuses so young that they survive as babies. I think it's wonderful for us all to have these opportunties.. I respect where Kady and Sara are coming from... I wish I just agree 100%, but I can't.

A question for people who say a baby is not a baby until born

I think I would be a person who says a fetus isn't a baby until it's born. Why? Because it's developing. There are no guarentees to life until it is born. My body is mine. If I choose to share it, that's my choice.
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  #5  
September 27th, 2006, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
I think it's an awesome example of modern medical science that in theory we can have fetuses so young that they survive as babies. I think it's wonderful for us all to have these opportunties.. I respect where Kady and Sara are coming from... I wish I just agree 100%, but I can't.

A question for people who say a baby is not a baby until born

I think I would be a person who says a fetus isn't a baby until it's born. Why? Because it's developing. There are no guarentees to life until it is born. My body is mine. If I choose to share it, that's my choice.[/b]

What about those who would say that even being born doesn't guarantee life? Some babies die within hours of birth. Some die within days/weeks/months.

Here are some numbers I found:

At 25 weeks there is a 60% chance of survival if born. The fetus is considered legally viable at 28 weeks and there is a 90% chance of survival if born at this point.
Weeks 29 – 32..........At this point there the survival rate is above 95% if the baby is born.
Source: http://www.wprc.org/trimester3.phtml


Those numbers seem pretty high to me. I can't find numbers on chances of survival for full term babies only, but in the US for every 1000 live births, there are 6.9 deaths.
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  #7  
September 28th, 2006, 11:52 AM
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I feel a child isn't borin until it can servive outside an incubater
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  #8  
September 28th, 2006, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
I think it's an awesome example of modern medical science that in theory we can have fetuses so young that they survive as babies. I think it's wonderful for us all to have these opportunties.. I respect where Kady and Sara are coming from... I wish I just agree 100%, but I can't.

A question for people who say a baby is not a baby until born

I think I would be a person who says a fetus isn't a baby until it's born. Why? Because it's developing. There are no guarentees to life until it is born. My body is mine. If I choose to share it, that's my choice.[/b]

What she said!
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  #9  
October 4th, 2006, 07:57 PM
mrobinson
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Quote:
Quote:
I think it's an awesome example of modern medical science that in theory we can have fetuses so young that they survive as babies. I think it's wonderful for us all to have these opportunties.. I respect where Kady and Sara are coming from... I wish I just agree 100%, but I can't.

A question for people who say a baby is not a baby until born

I think I would be a person who says a fetus isn't a baby until it's born. Why? Because it's developing. There are no guarentees to life until it is born. My body is mine. If I choose to share it, that's my choice.[/b]

What about those who would say that even being born doesn't guarantee life? Some babies die within hours of birth. Some die within days/weeks/months.

Here are some numbers I found:

At 25 weeks there is a 60% chance of survival if born. The fetus is considered legally viable at 28 weeks and there is a 90% chance of survival if born at this point.
Weeks 29 – 32..........At this point there the survival rate is above 95% if the baby is born.
Source: http://www.wprc.org/trimester3.phtml


Those numbers seem pretty high to me. I can't find numbers on chances of survival for full term babies only, but in the US for every 1000 live births, there are 6.9 deaths.
[/b]
I don't understand your question.. The bottom line is there are stillbirths and full term miscarriages that happen.. There are no guarentees.
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  #10  
October 4th, 2006, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I think it's an awesome example of modern medical science that in theory we can have fetuses so young that they survive as babies. I think it's wonderful for us all to have these opportunties.. I respect where Kady and Sara are coming from... I wish I just agree 100%, but I can't.

A question for people who say a baby is not a baby until born

I think I would be a person who says a fetus isn't a baby until it's born. Why? Because it's developing. There are no guarentees to life until it is born. My body is mine. If I choose to share it, that's my choice.[/b]

What about those who would say that even being born doesn't guarantee life? Some babies die within hours of birth. Some die within days/weeks/months.

Here are some numbers I found:

At 25 weeks there is a 60% chance of survival if born. The fetus is considered legally viable at 28 weeks and there is a 90% chance of survival if born at this point.
Weeks 29 – 32..........At this point there the survival rate is above 95% if the baby is born.
Source: http://www.wprc.org/trimester3.phtml


Those numbers seem pretty high to me. I can't find numbers on chances of survival for full term babies only, but in the US for every 1000 live births, there are 6.9 deaths.
[/b]
I don't understand your question.. The bottom line is there are stillbirths and full term miscarriages that happen.. There are no guarentees.
[/b]
I forgot about this thread, and my mind isn't working too great, so I'm not even understanding any of it.

I think my point to my question though was : Even after being born, a baby has no guarantees to life. I was just trying to add to the debate and didn't do so well. I'm trying very hard to explain but I just can't get the words out right, so I'll just say forget about my question because I can't explain what I mean.
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  #11  
October 4th, 2006, 08:20 PM
mrobinson
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I think my point to my question though was : Even after being born, a baby has no guarantees to life. I was just trying to add to the debate and didn't do so well. I'm trying very hard to explain but I just can't get the words out right, so I'll just say forget about my question because I can't explain what I mean. [/b]
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  #12  
October 7th, 2006, 05:01 AM
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I feel a child isn't borin until it can servive outside an incubater[/b]
That doesn't make any sense.You don't think a child is born until they can live outside of an incubator??That doesn't even make sense.They are born as soon as they come out of you..some people! So, that means that my friends neice was not born when she was in her incubator getting stronger and growing??HUH?? anyways as I have said before, she was born at 28 weeks and was only in the hospital for 2 months and is fine now.
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  #13  
October 7th, 2006, 03:08 PM
mrobinson
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You don't think a child is born until they can live outside of an incubator??That doesn't even make sense.They are born as soon as they come out of you..some people! So, that means that my friends neice was not born when she was in her incubator getting stronger and growing??HUH?? anyways as I have said before, she was born at 28 weeks and was only in the hospital for 2 months and is fine now.[/b]
I respect that some babies can live and I think it's great you have an example.. There are also examples of still births where the fetus just died for zero reason. Her point is that the woman's body is needed for a fetus to grow in to a baby.
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  #14  
October 7th, 2006, 05:55 PM
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hat doesn't make any sense.You don't think a child is born until they can live outside of an incubator??That doesn't even make sense.They are born as soon as they come out of you..some people! So, that means that my friends neice was not born when she was in her incubator getting stronger and growing??HUH?? anyways as I have said before, she was born at 28 weeks and was only in the hospital for 2 months and is fine now.[/b]
I was in an incubater too. No I don't think there alive yet. Why because if they were taken out most likely they'd die. (Yes I'm talking about me too.) Would you blame a parent that took there kid off the souport? That's why I feel that they araen't alive yet. unless the "child" can live on there own.
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  #16  
October 8th, 2006, 02:47 AM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
hat doesn't make any sense.You don't think a child is born until they can live outside of an incubator??That doesn't even make sense.They are born as soon as they come out of you..some people! So, that means that my friends neice was not born when she was in her incubator getting stronger and growing??HUH?? anyways as I have said before, she was born at 28 weeks and was only in the hospital for 2 months and is fine now.[/b]
I was in an incubater too. No I don't think there alive yet. Why because if they were taken out most likely they'd die. (Yes I'm talking about me too.) Would you blame a parent that took there kid off the souport? That's why I feel that they araen't alive yet. unless the "child" can live on there own.
[/b][/quote]
Your position really confuses me. So do you think full term babies that need machines to help them survive aren't born/alive? What about babies with special needs that have to have extra medical attention forever - are they never born/alive? All babies need things or they die - period. How is it somehow a distinction between the fact that they lay in an incubator or are breatfed or any other thing we have to do to keep a baby from dying? All babies need SOME level of care - as they can literally do nothing for themselves...so it can't be simply that a baby can survive on it's own - since no baby can. Is this a spiritual opinion or a medical one or something else? I have never seen ANY medical documentation or mention from any medical personnel that a baby born before it's due date is somehow not born/alive if it needs medical assistance. The medical establishment & the law see no difference in a baby born at 25 weeks gestation & one that is 10 yrs old - both are entitled to the same rights & treatment.
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We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters. ~Gloria Steinem

If a man has been his mother's undisputed darling he retains throughout life the triumphant feeling, the confidence in success, which not seldom brings actual success along with it. ~Sigmund Freud
My mom is a neverending song in my heart of comfort, happiness, and being. I may sometimes forget the words but I always remember the tune. ~Graycie Harmon
Don't wait to make your son a great man - make him a great boy. ~Author Unknown
You don't raise heroes, you raise sons. And if you treat them like sons, they'll turn out to be heroes, even if it's just in your own eyes. ~Walter M. Schirra, Sr.
A man loves his sweetheart the most, his wife the best, but his mother the longest. ~Irish Proverb
Mother's love is peace. It need not be acquired, it need not be deserved. ~Erich Fromm
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it. - Harold Hulbert
Mother is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children. ~William Makepeace Thackeray
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  #17  
October 8th, 2006, 04:35 AM
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I guess I can kind of see where the argument of "not a life until out of the incubator" comes from (but I think the poster was referring to premie babies?- please correct me if wrong, Miguelsmommy). I guess if you believe that human life begins after 37 weeks gestation (whether natural or artificial), then a child born at 28 weeks would, therefore, not yet be a life.

I disagree with this theory on a legal basis. The right to life which cannot be taken away without due process is extended to all "born" humans, and, born in the legal definition is taken from the mother's womb. Granted, sometimes that due process is a natural one and these children die of problems related to their premature birth. But, in most circumstances, (I think- correct me if wrong)- a family would not have the clear choice to remove feeding tubes and the like without good medical reason (they could be challeneged in court for denying these things to the child). I could be wrong here...not sure.
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  #18  
October 8th, 2006, 12:40 PM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
I disagree with this theory on a legal basis. The right to life which cannot be taken away without due process is extended to all "born" humans, and, born in the legal definition is taken from the mother's womb. Granted, sometimes that due process is a natural one and these children die of problems related to their premature birth. But, in most circumstances, (I think- correct me if wrong)- a family would not have the clear choice to remove feeding tubes and the like without good medical reason (they could be challeneged in court for denying these things to the child). I could be wrong here...not sure.[/b]
You are definitely right - at least in my state (Michigan). Here a father (who was a Dr - Dr. MEssenger) was tried in the case of removing his own 25 weeks old baby from life supprt without due process. He & his wife did not want the baby on life support- but in order to remove the baby from life support - they still needed permission.
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We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters. ~Gloria Steinem

If a man has been his mother's undisputed darling he retains throughout life the triumphant feeling, the confidence in success, which not seldom brings actual success along with it. ~Sigmund Freud
My mom is a neverending song in my heart of comfort, happiness, and being. I may sometimes forget the words but I always remember the tune. ~Graycie Harmon
Don't wait to make your son a great man - make him a great boy. ~Author Unknown
You don't raise heroes, you raise sons. And if you treat them like sons, they'll turn out to be heroes, even if it's just in your own eyes. ~Walter M. Schirra, Sr.
A man loves his sweetheart the most, his wife the best, but his mother the longest. ~Irish Proverb
Mother's love is peace. It need not be acquired, it need not be deserved. ~Erich Fromm
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it. - Harold Hulbert
Mother is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children. ~William Makepeace Thackeray
God could not be everywhere, so he created mothers. ~Jewish Proverb
The best conversations with mothers always take place in silence, when only the heart speaks. ~Carrie Latet




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  #19  
October 8th, 2006, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
I disagree with this theory on a legal basis. The right to life which cannot be taken away without due process is extended to all "born" humans, and, born in the legal definition is taken from the mother's womb. Granted, sometimes that due process is a natural one and these children die of problems related to their premature birth. But, in most circumstances, (I think- correct me if wrong)- a family would not have the clear choice to remove feeding tubes and the like without good medical reason (they could be challeneged in court for denying these things to the child). I could be wrong here...not sure.[/b]
You are definitely right - at least in my state (Michigan). Here a father (who was a Dr - Dr. MEssenger) was tried in the case of removing his own 25 weeks old baby from life supprt without due process. He & his wife did not want the baby on life support- but in order to remove the baby from life support - they still needed permission.
[/b]
Are these the same type of laws that deny "right to die" or are they all different?
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  #20  
October 8th, 2006, 02:21 PM
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Stuff to help servive ( quality of life) is diffrent then needed to servive. Yes I am talking about premies
Quote:
I guess if you believe that human life begins after 37 weeks gestation[/b]
or any other age that can sevive w/o michians. I feel until this stage it should be up to the parent.

Until out of the body I see a pre-born as simbiots. Weather (-,-)both harmed (0,+) mother not effected in a positive or negitive way "child" grows, (+,+) both mother and child are effected positively (mother most healthy when pregnant) or (-,+) mother sick baby heathly. I know simbiots are diffrent spices that's why I said LIKE or Similar. Personally to me babies aren't human until they're more than instincts there more like animals. However I feel animal have ever right to live and be treated well so.

It's just more grey area to me then most.
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