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If abortion is murder then war is murder


Abortion Debate

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  #1  
October 16th, 2006, 08:06 AM
mrobinson
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If abortion is murder then war is murder. I hear that killing is killing. Period. So would you agree that the act of war is murder?

I believe in abortion and war. Why? Because sometimes it's the best option.. It shouldn't be used in access but I would never shame a soilder nor a women who had an abortion. To me it's the same. They both did what they thought was the right answer at the time. I wouldn't tell either of them they are murderers.

Your thoughts?
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  #3  
October 16th, 2006, 08:47 AM
mrobinson
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Murder? Again, that may be defined as the MALICIOUS intentional act of killing another person....some definitions do not include the "malicious" adjective...but some do...so I will refrain from calling it murder, because most of the time it isn't necessarily done out of malice; but rather out of fear, instinct, and brainwashing.[/b]
Do you mean war and abortion?
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  #5  
October 16th, 2006, 09:02 AM
mrobinson
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Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
Do you mean war and abortion?[/b]
In this topic, I was referring to war.

But I do think that abortions are also done out of fear.
[/b][/quote]
Yes!! It's a primal instinct!
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  #6  
October 18th, 2006, 05:09 PM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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I don't believe in war. I struggle with things too like the halocaust because of this belief. I don't know what you do in those cases if you don't go to war.

I think killing is wrong. I think that there are times we react instinctively - I myself cannot be certain if someone threatened the health & well being of a loved one what I would do. I know my instinct is to fight - but my spiritual quest tells me no. Sinc eI cannot find hte right words - I am afraid I must quote:

Quote:
The Buddha has advised everyone to abstain from killing. If everybody accepts this advice, human beings would not kill each other. In the case where a person’s life is threatened, the Buddha says even then it is not advisable to kill out of self-protection. The weapon for self-protection is loving-kindness. One who practises this kindness very seldom comes across such misfortune. However, man loves his life so much that he is not prepared to surrender himself to others; in actual practice, most people would struggle for self-protection. It is natural and every living being struggles and kills others for self-protection but kammic effect depends on their mental attitude. During the struggle to protect himself, if he happens to kill his opponent although he has no intention to kill, then he is not responsible for that action. On the other hand, if he kills another person under any circumstances with the intention to kill, then he is not free from the kammic reaction; he has to face the consequences. We must remember that killing is killing; when we disapprove of it, we call it murder. When we punish man for murdering, we call it ‘capital punishment’. If our own soldiers are killed by an enemy we call it ‘slaughter’. However, if we approve a killing, we call it war. But if we remove the emotional content from these words, we can understand that killing is killing.

In recent years many scientists and some religionists have used the expressions like ‘humane killing’, ‘mercy killing’, ‘gentle killing’ and ‘painless killing’ to justify the ending of a life. They argue that if the victim feels no pain, if the knife is sharp, killing is justified. Buddhism can never accept these arguments because it is not how the killing occurs that is important, but the fact that a life of one being is terminated by another. No one has any right to do that for whatever reason.[/b]
that pretty much sums up my struggle & my goal of accepting.
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  #7  
October 18th, 2006, 07:14 PM
glasscandie's Avatar What I make is what I am
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Yes, I believe that taking another life is murder, no matter what context you put it in, or what word you would choose to use instead of the word "murder", to make it sound better.

To me, euthanasia = murder.
Killing someone on death row = murder.
Killing someone just for the heck of it = murder.
Killing someone in times of war still = murder.
Abortion (because I believe that it's a baby right from the start) = murder.

I mean, OK, the dictionary definition is the taking of a human life, usually with malicious intent. But I don't see a very big difference between killing and murder. They're one and the same to me, because the end result is the same.

ETA: I'm not saying the I think women who have abortions or people who choose to euthanize have malicious intent. I'm in fact trying to say that they don't, that I don't agree with the definition of murder lol
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  #8  
October 18th, 2006, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Yes, I believe that taking another life is murder, no matter what context you put it in, or what word you would choose to use instead of the word "murder", to make it sound better.

To me, euthanasia = murder.
Killing someone on death row = murder.
Killing someone just for the heck of it = murder.
Killing someone in times of war still = murder.
Abortion (because I believe that it's a baby right from the start) = murder.

I mean, OK, the dictionary definition is the taking of a human life, usually with malicious intent. But I don't see a very big difference between killing and murder. They're one and the same to me, because the end result is the same.

ETA: I'm not saying the I think women who have abortions or people who choose to euthanize have malicious intent. I'm in fact trying to say that they don't, that I don't agree with the definition of murder lol[/b]
Somehow it's hard for me to compare let's say a serial killer (for the heck of it) and a women having an abortion because the foetus has some severe malformations. Do you believe that women who have abortions should be prosecuted as well? (this is an honest question, not trying to sound smart) If the two acts are the same, then the two acts should be dealt with in a similar fashion, no?
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  #9  
October 18th, 2006, 09:27 PM
glasscandie's Avatar What I make is what I am
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Perhaps you responded before I edited, so I'll repeat:

The definition of murder is the taking of a human life, usually with malicious intent. I said that, for my answer, I disagreed with the malicious intent part - because I DON'T think that women who have abortions or people who choose to use euthanization for the most part (and is that even legal??) have a malicious intent.

I was just trying to say that, killing a fetus is killing a human is killing a dying person is killing a serial killer. It's killing, and you can sugar coat it with any word you choose, but it's still killing - it ends a human life by the hands of another human.

Now, that being said, I'm mainly talking about technicalities. As I've said in other posts - there are a million and one reasons why people do what they do, and I try not to judge.
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  #10  
October 19th, 2006, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Perhaps you responded before I edited[/b]
I did. My question would have been phrased differently had i seen the edit
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  #11  
October 19th, 2006, 09:52 PM
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No. It is not the same thing. Having an abortion for medical reasons(I.E. the mother's health is at risk) is the same as war.

War, although unfortunate, is necessary to protect the people. Were it not for war, there would be terrorism, mass death and 'murder' here on a much more regular basis. War is not fought to kill innocent people, it is to protect those innocent people at home.

Same with abortion for medical reasons--

Now, abortion for non-medical reasons(IE--I can't afford it) would not be the same as war. Abortion for those reasons are for non-life-threatening reasons. War is for life-threatening reasons.

To continue the comparison:

War involves the killing of people who are not innocent(yes, innocent people die, but it is unintentional--making it 'not' murder)
Abortion is the killing of an innocent person

War involves the removal of those who are a threat to us
Abortion involves the removal of a very non-threatening infant

Should I continue?
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  #12  
October 20th, 2006, 07:38 AM
mrobinson
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Having an abortion for medical reasons(I.E. the mother's health is at risk) is the same as war.[/b]
Thank you.
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  #13  
October 20th, 2006, 06:06 PM
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^
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  #14  
October 21st, 2006, 06:13 PM
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^^ So what you are trying to say is that you take back your original statement?
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  #15  
October 25th, 2006, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
War is not fought to kill innocent people, it is to protect those innocent people at home.[/b]
You're kidding, right? Being a military wife, this is some sort of inside joke that perhaps I'm not getting...?
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  #16  
October 25th, 2006, 08:10 AM
Mom2DavidandAaron's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
If abortion is murder then war is murder. I hear that killing is killing. Period. So would you agree that the act of war is murder?

I believe in abortion and war. Why? Because sometimes it's the best option.. It shouldn't be used in access but I would never shame a soilder nor a women who had an abortion. To me it's the same. They both did what they thought was the right answer at the time. I wouldn't tell either of them they are murderers.

Your thoughts?[/b]
OK, this is a little complicated, I hope I can make myself clear.
Killing is killing, but killing isn't always murder. Killing is taking a life- whether human or not. Murder has other implications such as malicious intent. Personally I don't believe neither abortion nor war are murder. Now for this I have to explain that my feelings on abortion come from my religious beliefs and in my religion a fetus isn't considered a full human being until its head is outside the womb. However, it is a partial or potential life and as such, it is forbidden to destroy it unless it's threatening a "full" life (in other words, the mother). Any other reason isn't acceptable to destroy this "partial" life.
That's why I don't think abortion is exactly murder.

As for war, I believe it's also different than murder. During a war you know where you're going and you know the consequences of it. As sad as it is, it's sometimes a necessary evil (won't give my POV on the present war... I'll just say I think it's hughly unnecessary ) and the price you pay is human lives. I believe there should be other ways to solve conflict, but let's be realists here. Sometimes war is required, as one poster mentioned, what would've happened if the Holocaust continued wihtout anybody fighting against it? Was war- with its price of human lives- worth it then? Here's the part I think where the "malicious intent" thing becomes a little grey. Is killing during a war done with malicious intent? That's not as clear. Actually, most cases of taking a life are actually not that clear. Is self-defense a justifiable reason to kill someone?

One poster asked if we should prosecute a mother having an abortion due to malformations the same way we would a killer. Although I don't believe both are the same thing my initial thought was, would you prosecute a person killing another person that was born with malformations? Would that be considered murder? Even if he's doing it for "merciful reasons"? How do you draw a perfect line between what's murder and what's "acceptable" (sorry, lack of a better word) killing?

Sharon
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  #17  
October 25th, 2006, 09:48 AM
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Well as a Navy mom and an Army stepmom I am very pro military. I also back my Soliders 100%. I have also had a friend that had an abortion. Did I feel like she could have made a better choice? Yes. Am I her?No. You have to do what is best for yourself in the situtation of abortion. As for soldiers and war. Do I feel like we should be in Iraq right now? NO. Do I support our soldier? 100%. I don't see any as murders. I saw someone say something about them being brainwashed, they are far from it. They chose to serve this county and I know many men and women who have gone back to Iraq 3 and 4 times voluntarily.
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  #18  
October 25th, 2006, 01:35 PM
mrobinson
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Sharon and Holley, I agree with your posts wholeheartly.
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