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Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice


Abortion Debate

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  #1  
October 22nd, 2006, 07:28 PM
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Why is there such a rift between the two? It seems like in every debate---whichever group is the minority in that debate gets basically attacked. Their words are picked apart and exaggerated, and it doesn't seem like the majority even take the time to try and understand where the others are coming from..
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  #2  
October 22nd, 2006, 07:46 PM
chlodoll
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I think people who are prochoice understand where people who are anti-choice are coming from, but that doesnt change what they believe and what they feel a womans rights are.

Which side is getting picked apart? Pro-life?
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  #3  
October 22nd, 2006, 08:01 PM
mrobinson
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Quote:
Why is there such a rift between the two? It seems like in every debate---whichever group is the minority in that debate gets basically attacked. Their words are picked apart and exaggerated, and it doesn't seem like the majority even take the time to try and understand where the others are coming from..[/b]
How hard it is to understand a pro-lifer's pov? They would keep the baby no matter what.. Is there something I'm missing?
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  #4  
October 22nd, 2006, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Why is there such a rift between the two? It seems like in every debate---whichever group is the minority in that debate gets basically attacked. Their words are picked apart and exaggerated, and it doesn't seem like the majority even take the time to try and understand where the others are coming from..[/b]
I already said this in other debate, but I'll repeat it.
In my time debating different topics I've seen that there are two sides: an "active" side and a "passive" side. Regardless of numbers, the active side usually seeks a change, either in individual behavior or in a more collective aspect, such as legislation. The passive side usually remains in the position of defending its side as "acceptable".
Some active sides, for example, are: anti-circumcision, pro-life, bf, vaccination and natural childbirth. The opposites would be the passive side.
Now, the active side of the debate is usually harsher because they seek a change in the status quo, they want to change minds and attitudes, therefore they use tougher measures to achieve this end. The passive side usually wants its decision to be respected but really couldn't care less about the choices of others. In other words, the active side usually seeks to make the alternative wrong, while the passive side sees both options as valid.
I'll use the example of the abortion debate to avoid bringing in other topics. The "active" side would be the pro-life. They seek to change people's views, and refer to abortion as being wrong. The passive side, pro-choice, finds itself in the position of defending their choices but don't believe that not having an abortion is wrong, KWIM?
BF, for example, those who advocate bf seek to convince mothers to do it, some even speak of legislation and some even refer to ff as "bad". Those who ff just defend that choice but don't necessarily believe that bf is wrong.

Having said that, I don't believe this means one side are the "good guys" and one the "bad guys". They just have a different goal in mind and use different methods to achieve those goals. I don't always agree with these methods as Istrongly believe that people respond better to respect than attacks, but others feel they need to be harsh to make people listen.
Personally, I'm what people will call pro-life, but I don't like to refer to myself like that. I believe that abortion is a valid option when the mother's life is in danger, and other special circumstances, such as if the fetus is already dead. But I don't think it should be an acceptable form of birth control. However, I'm in no position to judge the choices of others as I'm not in their shoes. I don't think abortion is an "easy way out" because it must be a heartbreaking experience, regardless of the circumstances. In other words, even if I believe abortion is wrong, that doesn't give me the right to have a holier-than-thou attitude, be judgmental, critical and demeaning and insult and hurt others because they don't agree with me.

Sharon
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  #5  
October 22nd, 2006, 08:25 PM
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I really enjoyed your post, Sharon, that was a relly good read. What do you think about situations where abortion is basically illegal (I'm thinking of central america where I came from) but the prolife side still seems to be the most outspoken or active side. Do you think that could be because they have to fight against opinion in the greater worldwide perspective...even though they are "in power" so to speak, they still must be more active because opinion tends to flow the other way? sorry, naking ..this might make no sense!
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  #6  
October 22nd, 2006, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
I really enjoyed your post, Sharon, that was a relly good read. What do you think about situations where abortion is basically illegal (I'm thinking of central america where I came from) but the prolife side still seems to be the most outspoken or active side. Do you think that could be because they have to fight against opinion in the greater worldwide perspective...even though they are "in power" so to speak, they still must be more active because opinion tends to flow the other way? sorry, naking ..this might make no sense![/b]
I think outspokenness (to be more PC) has to do with a person's feelings towards the subject. Those whofeel the "other side" is wrong tend to be more passionate about the subject and become more outspoken. Those on the passive side usually think both choices are acceptable and are less harsh in their approach as it's usually just defensive.
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  #7  
October 22nd, 2006, 10:28 PM
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MomtoDavidandAaron--Great post!

Quote:
I think people who are prochoice understand where people who are anti-choice are coming from, but that doesnt change what they believe and what they feel a womans rights are.

Which side is getting picked apart? Pro-life?[/b]
Well, first of all I like to consider myself Pro-life, not anti-choice.
No, it's not the pro-life people specifically, although it seems to happen a lot because we are the minority here. It's about the way the pro-life person(or whoever) is jumped on, not really on whether or not you understand..

Quote:
Quote:
Why is there such a rift between the two? It seems like in every debate---whichever group is the minority in that debate gets basically attacked. Their words are picked apart and exaggerated, and it doesn't seem like the majority even take the time to try and understand where the others are coming from..[/b]
How hard it is to understand a pro-lifer's pov? They would keep the baby no matter what.. Is there something I'm missing?
[/b]
Erm. Nevermind.
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  #8  
October 22nd, 2006, 11:23 PM
chlodoll
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Well, first of all I like to consider myself Pro-life, not anti-choice.
No, it's not the pro-life people specifically, although it seems to happen a lot because we are the minority here. It's about the way the pro-life person(or whoever) is jumped on, not really on whether or not you understand..[/b]
The term pro-life implies that I am anti-life, so I prefer the term anti-choice. You dont believe a woman should have the right to choose abortion.

I think that people who are pro-life debate the subject less, its a weaker arguement. Other then saying its murder, or its killing a baby there isnt much more to debate on that side.
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  #9  
October 23rd, 2006, 05:27 PM
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The term pro-life implies that I am anti-life, so I prefer the term anti-choice. You dont believe a woman should have the right to choose abortion.[/b]
I think it's tacky to use anti-choice - just as tacky as pro-abortion.

I am pro-life & I am NOT anti-choice - I would think you could gather that from numerous posts I ave made. I am certain there are MANY who are anti-choice on many subjects (including circ, BF/FF, abortion, etc, etc, etc) but you cannot group an entire group as anti-choice. It's really too generalizing.



Quote:
I'll use the example of the abortion debate to avoid bringing in other topics. The "active" side would be the pro-life. They seek to change people's views, and refer to abortion as being wrong. The passive side, pro-choice, finds itself in the position of defending their choices but don't believe that not having an abortion is wrong, KWIM?[/b]
I actually have to beg to differ on this one - there have been several threads where basically "pro-choice" people have criticized a decision NOT to abort a baby. I would say they actually have basically stated that NOT having an abortion was wrong in that case.
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  #10  
October 23rd, 2006, 06:04 PM
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I think most people in most cases would prefer the woman choose life. However, some women understand that that can't always be an option that is suitable. Some of the pro-life comments that get attacked are the ones that basically say "abortion is murder, how can someone do this, blah blah blah" and then they run away from the debate.

There's no debating in that instance. I am pro-choice, I would prefer she chose life, but ultimately...the choice is still hers. I have no right to take that from her.
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  #11  
October 23rd, 2006, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
How hard it is to understand a pro-lifer's pov? They would keep the baby no matter what.. Is there something I'm missing?[/b]
I think that's a simplistic way of looking at it. Not all "pro-lifers" have exactly the same views. I do believe that there are circumstances where abortion is an acceptable choice, such as when the mother's life is in danger or the fetus has died inside the womb. I think it's a bit unfair to put us all into a little category where we seem intransigent or intolerant. That's not the case with many people, from both sides. Personally, I wouldn't have an abortion for any other reason, but that doesn't mean I cannot understand and respect a person who does.

Sharon
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  #12  
October 23rd, 2006, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
The term pro-life implies that I am anti-life, so I prefer the term anti-choice. You dont believe a woman should have the right to choose abortion.[/b]
I think it's tacky to use anti-choice - just as tacky as pro-abortion.

I am pro-life & I am NOT anti-choice - I would think you could gather that from numerous posts I ave made. I am certain there are MANY who are anti-choice on many subjects (including circ, BF/FF, abortion, etc, etc, etc) but you cannot group an entire group as anti-choice. It's really too generalizing.



Quote:
I'll use the example of the abortion debate to avoid bringing in other topics. The "active" side would be the pro-life. They seek to change people's views, and refer to abortion as being wrong. The passive side, pro-choice, finds itself in the position of defending their choices but don't believe that not having an abortion is wrong, KWIM?[/b]
I actually have to beg to differ on this one - there have been several threads where basically "pro-choice" people have criticized a decision NOT to abort a baby. I would say they actually have basically stated that NOT having an abortion was wrong in that case.
[/b]
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  #13  
October 23rd, 2006, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
The term pro-life implies that I am anti-life, so I prefer the term anti-choice. You dont believe a woman should have the right to choose abortion.

I think that people who are pro-life debate the subject less, its a weaker arguement. Other then saying its murder, or its killing a baby there isnt much more to debate on that side.[/b]
And here I though the judgmental side was the pro-life side. Silly me.
I happen to be pro-life in the sense that I would never have an abortion and I beleive it's wrong. But, every person is free to make his/her own wrong choices. If a woman wants to have an abortion, it's her choice regardless of how wrong little old me think it is. It's still her choice. Maybe I'm an unusual pro-life, but that's the way I feel. I wouldn't want others going around taking away my choices because they feel they're wrong, so I'm not about to do that to someone else.
And sorry, but I happen to think that "killing a baby" is anything but a weak argument.
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  #14  
October 23rd, 2006, 09:11 PM
mrobinson
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Quote:
Quote:
How hard it is to understand a pro-lifer's pov? They would keep the baby no matter what.. Is there something I'm missing?[/b]
I think that's a simplistic way of looking at it. Not all "pro-lifers" have exactly the same views. I do believe that there are circumstances where abortion is an acceptable choice, such as when the mother's life is in danger or the fetus has died inside the womb. I think it's a bit unfair to put us all into a little category where we seem intransigent or intolerant. That's not the case with many people, from both sides. Personally, I wouldn't have an abortion for any other reason, but that doesn't mean I cannot understand and respect a person who does.

Sharon
[/b]
Simple to the person I quoted.. I certainly wouldn't categorize you nor Beck in that same simple answer.

Quote:
I happen to think that "killing a baby" is anything but a weak argument.[/b]
The context of last week proved otherwise to me.


I have respect for so many people who are pro-life but I won't lie, there are a few that are intolerant whom I don't respect.
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  #15  
October 23rd, 2006, 09:15 PM
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I actually have to beg to differ on this one - there have been several threads where basically "pro-choice" people have criticized a decision NOT to abort a baby. I would say they actually have basically stated that NOT having an abortion was wrong in that case. [/b]
I haven't been discussing abortion for long, so I haven't seen that one. Not that I doubt it happens. At this point, this may be the only thing I haven't yet heard
I'm sure some people would say that in some cases it is wrong not to have an abortion. Even I would think that if the mother's life is in danger, not having an abortion would probably be a wrong choice. But what you definitely not see often is someone saying that in cases of rape, for example, it should be mandatory to have an abortion. But I have seen discussions that abortion should be illegal, I don't know if I'm explaining myself here.
What I mean was that in every debate there's a side that values choice (hence the term "pro-choice) more than the other. And usually that side believes both choices are OK. The other side usually believes one choice is right and one is wrong and that a person shouldn't have the right to make that choice, see the difference? The key word here is "usually". This is a generalization, but people are different.

Sharon

Quote:
I have respect for so many people who are pro-life but I won't lie, there are a few that are intolerant whom I don't respect.[/b]
Well I think you can respect a person without necesarily agreeing with their POV. That shows intelligence and maturity, IMO.
But you're right, many people are uncapable of such tolerance in practically every debatable issue.

Sharon
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  #16  
October 24th, 2006, 12:16 PM
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I think It all boils down to the way we think. I would rather have a child aborted then know the parent doesn't want them, abuses them, there starved, really sick or anything that makes them suffer. Many Pro-life see adoption of a way out of that. I don't feel many parents that would put there child throw those things would choose adoption. Many don't feel adoption is an option. Yes adoption needs to be seen as bigger option but I don't think many are that strong.
I've also seen many adoptions go horribly wrong and the child still get horribly abused.

I feel because our society hasn't learned to handle a lot of issues well abortion is the next best thing until all the issues are solved.
The issues I'm talking about: abuse, poverty, children not being adopted right away, foster care, caring for the sick and homeless, unplanned pregnancy, hunger, it can go on and on...

Even though I'm more pro-abortion then even pro-choice I really do try to see pro-life's side. Unfourchanitly we just see two diffrent ways of waiting for a solution. I know many times I'm taking as OMG she didn't just say that or even think that. More often then not I trip on my words because I am so pationate about this subject.

Edited to add: I can't put a XX weeks aren't right because they are still pregnant. I would like it if people who wanted to abort could take some drug to help the child develop fast so they can be induced sooner and the child be adopted out but that's to much to ask.
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  #17  
October 24th, 2006, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
I actually have to beg to differ on this one - there have been several threads where basically "pro-choice" people have criticized a decision NOT to abort a baby. I would say they actually have basically stated that NOT having an abortion was wrong in that case. [/b]
I haven't been discussing abortion for long, so I haven't seen that one. Not that I doubt it happens. At this point, this may be the only thing I haven't yet heard
I'm sure some people would say that in some cases it is wrong not to have an abortion. Even I would think that if the mother's life is in danger, not having an abortion would probably be a wrong choice. But what you definitely not see often is someone saying that in cases of rape, for example, it should be mandatory to have an abortion. But I have seen discussions that abortion should be illegal, I don't know if I'm explaining myself here.
What I mean was that in every debate there's a side that values choice (hence the term "pro-choice) more than the other. And usually that side believes both choices are OK. The other side usually believes one choice is right and one is wrong and that a person shouldn't have the right to make that choice, see the difference? The key word here is "usually". This is a generalization, but people are different.

Sharon
[/b]
Sharon - I was speaking to some arguments that have been made on quality of life, etc...of the baby - when it comes ot the mother's healht (such as ectopic) I have yet to see any woman here on any side say hte woman "should" carry the baby - even for those that aren't certainw hat they might do - I haven't seen anyone say she should continue with that kind of health threat - but I have seen those that say if the mother is told the child would be ill that it's selfish not to abort - and hence hte reason I say it has been deemed "wrong" in some cases (by some pro-choice people) to not have an abortion. I was trying to explain what I was saying - hopefully that mde it more clear rather than more cloudy.
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If a man has been his mother's undisputed darling he retains throughout life the triumphant feeling, the confidence in success, which not seldom brings actual success along with it. ~Sigmund Freud
My mom is a neverending song in my heart of comfort, happiness, and being. I may sometimes forget the words but I always remember the tune. ~Graycie Harmon
Don't wait to make your son a great man - make him a great boy. ~Author Unknown
You don't raise heroes, you raise sons. And if you treat them like sons, they'll turn out to be heroes, even if it's just in your own eyes. ~Walter M. Schirra, Sr.
A man loves his sweetheart the most, his wife the best, but his mother the longest. ~Irish Proverb
Mother's love is peace. It need not be acquired, it need not be deserved. ~Erich Fromm
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it. - Harold Hulbert
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  #18  
October 26th, 2006, 06:01 AM
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I think especially in the pro-life/pro-choice debate, it really comes down to passion.

People like me who are prolife want to protect the life of the baby, as protect the woman from hrm (emotional, physical et al.)

People who are Pro-choice, are protecting a "choice" it's a less tangible thing. And from what I've seen most people who are Pro-choice, say "it's not something I'd choose, but I want to let other people have the chioice."

So I guess I'm saying IMO Pro-Lifers are Pro-Life for everyone, Pro-choicers are not quite as invested....

E
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  #19  
October 26th, 2006, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
I think especially in the pro-life/pro-choice debate, it really comes down to passion.

People like me who are prolife want to protect the life of the baby, as protect the woman from hrm (emotional, physical et al.)

People who are Pro-choice, are protecting a "choice" it's a less tangible thing. And from what I've seen most people who are Pro-choice, say "it's not something I'd choose, but I want to let other people have the chioice."

So I guess I'm saying IMO Pro-Lifers are Pro-Life for everyone, Pro-choicers are not quite as invested....

E[/b]
I disagree. I am pro-choice for many reasons but the number one reason is the social issues surrounding abortion and the problems that would arise were it outlawed-women dying from illegal abortions, women forced to keep pregnancies that are the result of incest or rape, women who shouldn't be mothers having babies, children starved abused and neglected...the list goes on. Those are very tangible things to me and it is something I am very passionate about and invested in.

And on the flip side, I could say that the majority of pro-lifers I know are very "passionate" about the sanctity of life and the rights of the unborn child....untill said child is born. Then said child becomes a burden and a waste of their tax dollars.
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  #20  
October 26th, 2006, 01:02 PM
chlodoll
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And from what I've seen most people who are Pro-choice, say "it's not something I'd choose, but I want to let other people have the chioice."[/b]
I see that on JM but not IRL.

Quote:
And on the flip side, I could say that the majority of pro-lifers I know are very "passionate" about the sanctity of life and the rights of the unborn child....untill said child is born. Then said child becomes a burden and a waste of their tax dollars.[/b]
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