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Slightly Radical Thought....


Abortion Debate

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  #1  
October 25th, 2006, 01:20 PM
Super Mommy
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 542
I'll start by saying I'm VERY Pro-life!

So I think that one way to reduce abortions is to offer pregnant women who are considering abortion the monetary equivalent of 1 year of welfare to give their baby up for adoption. Now there would be some guidelines, random drug/alcohol testing, mandatory prenatal care etc. all paid for by state medical if the girl is not insured.

And after delivery (regardless of live or still birth, after a certain number of gestational weeks, like say 20 or so) she gets a check and a childless couple gets a baby. Heck I'd be willing to bet childless couples would gladly pay for it.

So what do you guys think?

E
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"Government’s view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it." -Ronald Reagan



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  #2  
October 25th, 2006, 01:28 PM
mrobinson
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Posts: n/a

Quote:
I'll start by saying I'm VERY Pro-life![/b]
Oh.. you'll see how just even pigeon-holing with terms like pro-life, pro-choice, etc. works around here!

Quote:
So I think that one way to reduce abortions is to offer pregnant women who are considering abortion the monetary equivalent of 1 year of welfare to give their baby up for adoption. Now there would be some guidelines, random drug/alcohol testing, mandatory prenatal care etc. all paid for by state medical if the girl is not insured.

And after delivery (regardless of live or still birth, after a certain number of gestational weeks, like say 20 or so) she gets a check and a childless couple gets a baby. Heck I'd be willing to bet childless couples would gladly pay for it.

So what do you guys think?

E[/b]
I think it's awesome of out the box thinking.. The start of a great option for some gals.
Potentional Issues:
~overflooding of all ready stretched services like, adoption, welfare branches of government.
~if this is a state controlled issue, people can still get clean pee elsewhere
~I love the paid state medical idea! ~ I just see issues with people claiming it's not right in the US.
~ I love the idea of paying regardless the outcome but I see alot of potentional idiots taking advantage of that.
~Do you think paying women to breed could end up with more moral issues equal to abortion? (To me, making a life for money is based on greed.)

Overall I still prefer this idea as a choice for more women..
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  #3  
October 25th, 2006, 01:45 PM
Super Mommy
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 542
Quote:
I think it's awesome of out the box thinking.. The start of a great option for some gals.
Potentional Issues:

~if this is a state controlled issue, people can still get clean pee elsewhere
~I love the paid state medical idea! ~ I just see issues with people claiming it's not right in the US.
~ I love the idea of paying regardless the outcome but I see alot of potentional idiots taking advantage of that.
~Do you think paying women to breed could end up with more moral issues equal to abortion? (To me, making a life for money is based on greed.)

Overall I still prefer this idea as a choice for more women..[/b]
~overflooding of all ready stretched services like, adoption, welfare branches of government.
I'm assuming adoption agencies would handle most of it, and this is only an option IMO for women who would qualify for welfare already.

~if this is a state controlled issue, people can still get clean pee elsewhere
Where??? No really, for employment purpose drug tests someone was in the bathroom with me.

~I love the paid state medical idea! ~ I just see issues with people claiming it's not right in the US.
Again, already exists and only for those who would finacially qualify already.

~ I love the idea of paying regardless the outcome but I see alot of potentional idiots taking advantage of that.
me too! Haven't worked all the kinks out, yet....


~Do you think paying women to breed could end up with more moral issues equal to abortion? (To me, making a life for money is based on greed.)
And this is where my morality stumbles. If we limit, then we are encouraging abortions. Could we require Norplant/IUD or something like that so they only get it basically the once, as one would hope in 5 years they'd pull their lives together. And frankly from what I know of the adoption system in the US, adoptive parents are already basically paying for babies.

E
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"Government’s view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it." -Ronald Reagan



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  #4  
October 25th, 2006, 01:54 PM
mrobinson
Guest
Posts: n/a
You know, I would like to see more people have education in general about their options... Maybe we could have blind faith that if people had manatory counselling, presenting all the options, including this one, then people could make more informed decisions about their body. I really love your idea because it helps people who really don't want to have abortions but do because they feel it's the best option..

The kinks we'll figure out more.. I'll think about it and I'm sure some of the other girls will add lots too!

I know a few religious institutions have programs similar to this.. but there aren't enough of them, and not enough non-religious.. I would hope if we had more funding in social services, that would help reduce abortions with this option.
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  #5  
October 25th, 2006, 02:07 PM
Super Mommy
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 542
Feminists for Life (an organization seems to support this type of thing.)

Once my kids get older I have a plan to help women faced with decisions like this. I have a dream of a "village" in a renovated apartment building for single mothers offering housing, parenting classes, help getting education, and it's self supported, they cook together, clean taking turns, some work some provide daycare. It's a beautiful dream....

E
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"Government’s view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it." -Ronald Reagan



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  #6  
October 25th, 2006, 02:27 PM
mrobinson
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Posts: n/a
All the power to you girl!
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  #7  
October 25th, 2006, 04:32 PM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 12,330
I like what you both have already said & the questions Michelle posed to this plan. I guess my only thing to add as a "childless couple" that have looked into adoption - as much as we might "gladly pay" any amount. Being childless doesn't equal being wealthy - and MOST couples couldn't afford to outright pay those expenses.
__________________
B - Crazy momma to my two boys
We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters. ~Gloria Steinem

If a man has been his mother's undisputed darling he retains throughout life the triumphant feeling, the confidence in success, which not seldom brings actual success along with it. ~Sigmund Freud
My mom is a neverending song in my heart of comfort, happiness, and being. I may sometimes forget the words but I always remember the tune. ~Graycie Harmon
Don't wait to make your son a great man - make him a great boy. ~Author Unknown
You don't raise heroes, you raise sons. And if you treat them like sons, they'll turn out to be heroes, even if it's just in your own eyes. ~Walter M. Schirra, Sr.
A man loves his sweetheart the most, his wife the best, but his mother the longest. ~Irish Proverb
Mother's love is peace. It need not be acquired, it need not be deserved. ~Erich Fromm
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it. - Harold Hulbert
Mother is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children. ~William Makepeace Thackeray
God could not be everywhere, so he created mothers. ~Jewish Proverb
The best conversations with mothers always take place in silence, when only the heart speaks. ~Carrie Latet




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  #8  
October 25th, 2006, 06:59 PM
Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: ohio
Posts: 3,657
Quote:
apartment building for single mothers offering housing, parenting classes, help getting education, and it's self supported, they cook together, clean taking turns, some work some provide daycare. It's a beautiful dream..[/b]
My dream too... and I'm VERY PRO-CHOICE
I really like your Idea... but while pregnant they need soupport to but I think it would be farily easy to set up housing while pregnant because there are so many abandond wharehouses that could be remodled. Set everything up like a dorm. Then have couselors and doctors that help with career planning and success, adoption issues, Personal issues and birth control issues. Have the "stay" be about 12 - 15 months so all issues befor and after are adressed. Like making sure they go to there post-op, and after birth is addressed PPD, birth control issues and other issues.
(theres acually a place like this calle the abby's house I think that's the name)

BUT what if in the end they do not want to give there child up? AND what about people that then go and get the IUD removed?
I think if it wasn't affiliated with religion or pro-life / pro-chioces it would work well. At least in decressing abortions and It could have an outreach Center for people that have housing. Okay I'm way off topic I'm just really excited to see someone that has dreamed of this too (mine didn't include the whole adoption thing but it will now)
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  #9  
October 26th, 2006, 06:34 AM
Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,120
Nice idea in theory, but in application it would be next to impossible...First of all, you seem to be assuming that the majority of abortions are lower class women, who are doing it for financial reasons and would rely on the system if they had these children. Some stats on abortion:

Who's having abortions (income)?
-Women with family incomes less than $15,000 obtain 28.7% of all abortions
-Women with family incomes between $15,000 and $29,999 obtain 19.5%
-Women with family incomes between $30,000 and $59,999 obtain 38.0%
-Women with family incomes over $60,000 obtain 13.8%.

Reasons for abortion:
- Feels unready for responsibility 21%
- Feels she can't afford baby 21%
- Concern for how baby would change her life 16%
- Relationship problem 12%
- Feels she isn't mature enough 11%
- Has all the children she wants 8%
- Other reasons 4-5%

So finances aren't really a huge factor in the descision...And most women who obtain abortions don't simply not want a baby, they don't want to be pregnant, period. I don't think bribary is the answer here. I can see that leading to more abuses than anything...Women getting pregnant for financial reward-there is a scary thought
Then there is the issue of adoption...we already have more children in need of homes than couples able to adopt them as it is...now we want to add more to the system, strained as it is? And I would bet that the children borne from such a program would probobly NOT be the healthy white infants so in demand...I would imagine there would be a high number of minority children and special needs children. Not only that, but give women money for placing their children up for adoption...money that could be spent taking care of the children we already have. Fiscally it doesn't make much sense to me.

Now this:
"Once my kids get older I have a plan to help women faced with decisions like this. I have a dream of a "village" in a renovated apartment building for single mothers offering housing, parenting classes, help getting education, and it's self supported, they cook together, clean taking turns, some work some provide daycare. It's a beautiful dream...."

Is a great idea. And I think that alone would dramatically reduce the number of aboritons. A program like that would be a Godsend for me, personally. Support and education is the key...I think that is what we need to focus on. Not bribing women to keep unwanted pregnancies.
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Those who love me know how to reach me...it's been real ladies, peace and love!!
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  #10  
October 26th, 2006, 07:13 AM
Jacquie's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 8,973
I agree with what you're saying about money not always being the issue Blondie, but the OP suggested that this would be one way to reduce abortions. It wasn't implied to me that she thought that abortions would disappear altogether by doing this.

I have to say that I feel the suggestion is dangerous. If someone needs money, they know that they can just get pregnant, threaten abortion, and be offerred the opportunity to be reimbursed if they give their baby up for adoption. To me, it encourages the sale of babies. Not that I want to encourage abortion over baby sales (both are bad), but I think that more pregnancies would occur as a result of this.
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5/20/05:
5/27/05:
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08/27/05:
08/30/05: miscarriage
01/15/05: misdiagnosed with PCOS
08/29/06: first appt at fertility clinic (was already pregnant with dd and didn't know it)
08/31/06:
05/16/07: DD was born

TTC #2:
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04/21/10 - 10/13/10: 7 unsuccessful rounds of clomid with OB
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  #12  
November 9th, 2006, 03:59 PM
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 210
Why not offer the mother the welfare and keep the family together? What happens when/if after the birth the mother decides to change her mind? Should she be FORCED to give her child up for adoption when she doesn't want to JUST because she had considered an abortion in the past??? Should she be pressured to do so? The money is coersion. This violates adoption ethics.

Here is what it comes down to. The sale of human beings (ie. human trafficing) is illegal. It exists but it is illegal. Paying a mother to sell her child is not legal. This my friends is slavery...Government mandated slavery....the sale and ownership of a human person with out their concent.

I am sorry I just can't agree with infant adoption. There are 500,000 children languishing in the foster care system who are "unadoptable"...because the large majority of adoptive parents only want healthy white infants. It is no longer about "finding a poor orphan a family" it is about filling consumer demand. The demand for children by adoptive parents. It sickens me. I am working to be a foster mom for pregnant teenage girls. I have done quite a bit of research into the subject. All to often young, nieve, vonerable girls who are TERRIFIED because of social stigma's and in some cases family pressure....are taken advantage of. They may not realize this is the case until later.....but there are hundreds of thousands of adoptee's and natural mothers who are begining to speak out.

Infants are a commodity...a product....and adoptive parents are a consumer. The adoption industry is not a non-profit humanitarian project. Very far from it. It is a 1.5 BILLION dollar for profit industry. They make profit on each child they "place". They have a vested monitary intrest in obtaining as many infants as possible for as many clients as possible. The best intrest of the mother or baby is not considered. You can put any sugar coated, warm and fuzzy, spin on it that you like but this is the reality of the buissness. Adoption "professionals" will go to amazing lenghts to obtain children (even going to middle schools and highschools to encourage children to place their children if they are/get pregnant). It is all about money.


Furthermore women are not brooders for the infertile.
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  #13  
November 9th, 2006, 07:58 PM
Paganmommie's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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i was thinking about this topic and that may work for some woman, especially woman having blond haired, blue eyed children.

Black children or ethnic children are rarely adopted, most just end up in foster homes.
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  #14  
November 10th, 2006, 08:43 AM
Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 1,670
Quote:

Quote:
I'll start by saying I'm VERY Pro-life![/b]
Oh.. you'll see how just even pigeon-holing with terms like pro-life, pro-choice, etc. works around here!

Quote:
So I think that one way to reduce abortions is to offer pregnant women who are considering abortion the monetary equivalent of 1 year of welfare to give their baby up for adoption. Now there would be some guidelines, random drug/alcohol testing, mandatory prenatal care etc. all paid for by state medical if the girl is not insured.

And after delivery (regardless of live or still birth, after a certain number of gestational weeks, like say 20 or so) she gets a check and a childless couple gets a baby. Heck I'd be willing to bet childless couples would gladly pay for it.

So what do you guys think?

E[/b]
I think it's awesome of out the box thinking.. The start of a great option for some gals.
Potentional Issues:
~overflooding of all ready stretched services like, adoption, welfare branches of government.
~if this is a state controlled issue, people can still get clean pee elsewhere
~I love the paid state medical idea! ~ I just see issues with people claiming it's not right in the US.
~ I love the idea of paying regardless the outcome but I see alot of potentional idiots taking advantage of that.
~Do you think paying women to breed could end up with more moral issues equal to abortion? (To me, making a life for money is based on greed.)

Overall I still prefer this idea as a choice for more women..
[/b]
congratulations on your pregnancy.I hope you enjoy the miracle of life growing within you.It is very precious.
__________________
url=http://www.i-am-pregnant.com/1403420400][/url]
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  #15  
November 10th, 2006, 09:16 AM
Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,120
Quote:
congratulations on your pregnancy.I hope you enjoy the miracle of life growing within you.It is very precious.[/b]
I don't think either 3boysnagirl or Mrobinson are pregnant (yet )


ETA-OOPS! Never mind, ate my words....congratulations Michelle!
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Those who love me know how to reach me...it's been real ladies, peace and love!!
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  #17  
November 10th, 2006, 12:38 PM
mrobinson
Guest
Posts: n/a
Quote:
congratulations on your pregnancy.I hope you enjoy the miracle of life growing within you.It is very precious.[/b]
I don't know how to feel about this comment by you mommy1 as your last comment to me was about how sick I was... So are you posting this here, instead of the annoucement thread to re-inforce your abortion stance? You can rest assured me being pregnant WILL NOT change how I feel about abortion.
If it's genuine, I guess you believe I would forgo that last comment to me from you then, eh?
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  #18  
November 11th, 2006, 02:07 AM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 12,330
Quote:
Why not offer the mother the welfare and keep the family together? What happens when/if after the birth the mother decides to change her mind? Should she be FORCED to give her child up for adoption when she doesn't want to JUST because she had considered an abortion in the past??? Should she be pressured to do so? The money is coersion. This violates adoption ethics.

Here is what it comes down to. The sale of human beings (ie. human trafficing) is illegal. It exists but it is illegal. Paying a mother to sell her child is not legal. This my friends is slavery...Government mandated slavery....the sale and ownership of a human person with out their concent.

I am sorry I just can't agree with infant adoption. There are 500,000 children languishing in the foster care system who are "unadoptable"...because the large majority of adoptive parents only want healthy white infants. It is no longer about "finding a poor orphan a family" it is about filling consumer demand. The demand for children by adoptive parents. It sickens me. I am working to be a foster mom for pregnant teenage girls. I have done quite a bit of research into the subject. All to often young, nieve, vonerable girls who are TERRIFIED because of social stigma's and in some cases family pressure....are taken advantage of. They may not realize this is the case until later.....but there are hundreds of thousands of adoptee's and natural mothers who are begining to speak out.

Infants are a commodity...a product....and adoptive parents are a consumer. The adoption industry is not a non-profit humanitarian project. Very far from it. It is a 1.5 BILLION dollar for profit industry. They make profit on each child they "place". They have a vested monitary intrest in obtaining as many infants as possible for as many clients as possible. The best intrest of the mother or baby is not considered. You can put any sugar coated, warm and fuzzy, spin on it that you like but this is the reality of the buissness. Adoption "professionals" will go to amazing lenghts to obtain children (even going to middle schools and highschools to encourage children to place their children if they are/get pregnant). It is all about money.


Furthermore women are not brooders for the infertile.[/b]
I am so glad to see you have such compassion for the childless. It absolutely warms the heart. I take it you are childless & planning to take in only those children languishing in foster care & are unadoptable rather than having any of your own.
__________________
B - Crazy momma to my two boys
We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters. ~Gloria Steinem

If a man has been his mother's undisputed darling he retains throughout life the triumphant feeling, the confidence in success, which not seldom brings actual success along with it. ~Sigmund Freud
My mom is a neverending song in my heart of comfort, happiness, and being. I may sometimes forget the words but I always remember the tune. ~Graycie Harmon
Don't wait to make your son a great man - make him a great boy. ~Author Unknown
You don't raise heroes, you raise sons. And if you treat them like sons, they'll turn out to be heroes, even if it's just in your own eyes. ~Walter M. Schirra, Sr.
A man loves his sweetheart the most, his wife the best, but his mother the longest. ~Irish Proverb
Mother's love is peace. It need not be acquired, it need not be deserved. ~Erich Fromm
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it. - Harold Hulbert
Mother is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children. ~William Makepeace Thackeray
God could not be everywhere, so he created mothers. ~Jewish Proverb
The best conversations with mothers always take place in silence, when only the heart speaks. ~Carrie Latet




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  #19  
November 29th, 2006, 11:19 AM
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 210
I believe in the best intrest of the CHILD. If it is possible to prevent the trauma that seperation causes an infant by keeping it's family together then this is the option I support.

I have compassion for the childless. I also have compassion for the women who are volnerable, scared, neieve, who don't know their rights, and who will suffer for the rest of their life because they were exploited by the adoption industry. I have compassion for adoptee's whose basic human rights to full ownership of their personhood are denied. Who can't get basic information about who they are with out petitioning a court.

Yes as I stated I am working on becoming a foster mother. I am going to be working with pregnant teenage girls. I just don't think the wants or needs of a third party should infringe on the rights of the child & mother. I don't think that the purchase of a human being to satifsy third party demand is moral in any way.

Adoption is ONLY about finding homes for oprhaned children who are in need....It is NOT about fulfilling the needs of an adoptive couple. Healthy, White, infants with living extended family are not orphans. 500,000 children who languash in the foster care system because they are not "young" enough are orphans.
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  #20  
November 29th, 2006, 03:29 PM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 12,330
Quote:
I believe in the best intrest of the CHILD. If it is possible to prevent the trauma that seperation causes an infant by keeping it's family together then this is the option I support.

I have compassion for the childless. I also have compassion for the women who are volnerable, scared, neieve, who don't know their rights, and who will suffer for the rest of their life because they were exploited by the adoption industry. I have compassion for adoptee's whose basic human rights to full ownership of their personhood are denied. Who can't get basic information about who they are with out petitioning a court.

Yes as I stated I am working on becoming a foster mother. I am going to be working with pregnant teenage girls. I just don't think the wants or needs of a third party should infringe on the rights of the child & mother. I don't think that the purchase of a human being to satifsy third party demand is moral in any way.

Adoption is ONLY about finding homes for oprhaned children who are in need....It is NOT about fulfilling the needs of an adoptive couple. Healthy, White, infants with living extended family are not orphans. 500,000 children who languash in the foster care system because they are not "young" enough are orphans.[/b]
I have looked at hundreds of profiles. Age is not hte issue - at least here in Michigan. Generlaly it's health. I have seen TONS of profile that say no pets in the home, may act out sexually toward other children, needs a trained parent in teh home for nursing care, etc. These are not isue of race or age - it's issues of what any given couple has to offer. Do I think these kids deserve to have fmilies & be loved? Absolutely - but I do not for a moment believe they are there for any other reason than perhaps being more of a challenge than many people feel up to. I have never in my search found a listing for a completely healthy child (meaning physically & emotionally) of any age that isn't already in the process of adoption. I have looked into adopting through foster here & here, even for minority children, if you want a child wihtout some sort of restriction or special needs, then there is a waiting list. I think it's fr more complicated the reasons there are 500,000 languishing than what this makes it sound.
__________________
B - Crazy momma to my two boys
We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters. ~Gloria Steinem

If a man has been his mother's undisputed darling he retains throughout life the triumphant feeling, the confidence in success, which not seldom brings actual success along with it. ~Sigmund Freud
My mom is a neverending song in my heart of comfort, happiness, and being. I may sometimes forget the words but I always remember the tune. ~Graycie Harmon
Don't wait to make your son a great man - make him a great boy. ~Author Unknown
You don't raise heroes, you raise sons. And if you treat them like sons, they'll turn out to be heroes, even if it's just in your own eyes. ~Walter M. Schirra, Sr.
A man loves his sweetheart the most, his wife the best, but his mother the longest. ~Irish Proverb
Mother's love is peace. It need not be acquired, it need not be deserved. ~Erich Fromm
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it. - Harold Hulbert
Mother is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children. ~William Makepeace Thackeray
God could not be everywhere, so he created mothers. ~Jewish Proverb
The best conversations with mothers always take place in silence, when only the heart speaks. ~Carrie Latet




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