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Abortion Debate

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  #1  
October 27th, 2006, 05:54 AM
crunchymama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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This is a serious question, I'm not trying to be a smarta$$ at all.

Quote:
I can undersand (not agree with) people who say it isn't a baby at conception thinking it is alright becasue they don't think they are killing a baby.[/b]
I took that quote from one of my other posts. What word would you uyse instead of kill? It seems to be that word makes people so angry that the people who use are then not taken serious. I want people to take me serious not just think I am trying to pi$$ them off. So what is the more PC word?
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  #2  
October 27th, 2006, 07:07 AM
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terminate the pregnancy.
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  #3  
October 27th, 2006, 07:08 AM
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You can use whatever word you want...and if you believe that life begins at conception, then I can understand why you personally would feel that it is killing something. Ending a life is killing...you can't argue semantics with that. But to be fair, you can't say it is killing a BABY, because it is technically a fetus. People get all worked up over calling it that, but this is the medical term When the word murder is used, that's when it gets more offensive...because murder is a legal term that insinuates malice of action and forethought.

Quote:
terminate the pregnancy.[/b]

That's what I would say...words like "kill" "murder" and "baby" are emotionally loaded terms which is why I don't use them, they can be very hurtful
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  #4  
October 27th, 2006, 07:15 AM
mrobinson
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Oh, i don't know ~ abort!
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  #5  
October 27th, 2006, 08:25 AM
chlodoll
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Oh, i don't know ~ abort![/b]
lol!! ITA
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  #6  
October 27th, 2006, 08:45 AM
crunchymama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Oh, i don't know ~ abort[/b]

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  #7  
October 27th, 2006, 09:47 AM
Jacquie's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
You can use whatever word you want...and if you believe that life begins at conception, then I can understand why you personally would feel that it is killing something. Ending a life is killing...you can't argue semantics with that. But to be fair, you can't say it is killing a BABY, because it is technically a fetus.[/b]
A little OT, but I thought it wasn't a fetus until 10 weeks?
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TTC #1:
5/20/05:
5/27/05:
5/28/05: miscarriage
08/27/05:
08/30/05: miscarriage
01/15/05: misdiagnosed with PCOS
08/29/06: first appt at fertility clinic (was already pregnant with dd and didn't know it)
08/31/06:
05/16/07: DD was born

TTC #2:
11/13/09: let's try again!
03/10/10: tests with new OB - everything totally normal for DH and I, no indication of pcos; officially diagnosed with "Unexplained Infertility"
04/21/10 - 10/13/10: 7 unsuccessful rounds of clomid with OB
11/13/10 - 14/23/11: 3 unsuccessful IUI's with clomid at fertility clinic
07/27/11: ER for IVF - retrieved 27; 17 were mature enough to fertilize; all 17 fertilized; 11 made it to day 3 embryos; 6 made it to day 6 blasts. Transferred 1, froze 5.
08/08/11: positive hpt!
08/13/11 - 08/20/11: positive blood test (186), but cramping and bleeding. 2 days later, blood at 275; 2 days later, blood at 21. Inevitable miscarriage.
10/13/11: start suprefact for first FET
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  #8  
October 27th, 2006, 09:55 AM
crunchymama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
You can use whatever word you want...and if you believe that life begins at conception, then I can understand why you personally would feel that it is killing something. Ending a life is killing...you can't argue semantics with that. But to be fair, you can't say it is killing a BABY, because it is technically a fetus.[/b]
In my head I honestly will still think of it as killing but ut seems like if you use that word here you are automatically some pro-life freak out to make everyone feel guilty.
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  #9  
October 27th, 2006, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
A little OT, but I thought it wasn't a fetus until 10 weeks?[/b]
I"m not sure when it changes, but I know for quite a while it's an embryo.
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  #10  
October 27th, 2006, 10:39 AM
mrobinson
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Quote:
[/b]
(I love that emoticon!)

Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
You can use whatever word you want...and if you believe that life begins at conception, then I can understand why you personally would feel that it is killing something. Ending a life is killing...you can't argue semantics with that. But to be fair, you can't say it is killing a BABY, because it is technically a fetus.[/b]
In my head I honestly will still think of it as killing but it seems like if you use that word here you are automatically some pro-life freak out to make everyone feel guilty.
[/b][/quote]
Well, I think Rebecca's description of words of negative emotion is a great explanation. It does hurt people who have made this hard decision to make. I know you may feel it's selfish but I see it as self-less.
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  #12  
October 27th, 2006, 04:03 PM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Quote:
You can use whatever word you want...and if you believe that life begins at conception, then I can understand why you personally would feel that it is killing something. Ending a life is killing...you can't argue semantics with that. But to be fair, you can't say it is killing a BABY, because it is technically a fetus. People get all worked up over calling it that, but this is the medical term When the word murder is used, that's when it gets more offensive...because murder is a legal term that insinuates malice of action and forethought.

Quote:
terminate the pregnancy.[/b]

That's what I would say...words like "kill" "murder" and "baby" are emotionally loaded terms which is why I don't use them, they can be very hurtful
[/b]
I understand the term "baby" might be hurtful - but it's isn't technically incorrect.....

<a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/baby" target="_blank">
Quote:
ba‧by  /ˈbeɪbi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[bey-bee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, plural -bies, adjective, verb, -bied, -by‧ing.
–noun
1. an infant or very young child.
2. a newborn or very young animal.
3. the youngest member of a family, group, etc.
4. an immature or childish person.
5. a human fetus.
6. Informal.
a. Sometimes Disparaging and Offensive. a girl or woman, esp. an attractive one.
b. a person of whom one is deeply fond; sweetheart.
c. (sometimes initial capital letter) an affectionate or familiar address (sometimes offensive when used to strangers, casual acquaintances, subordinates, etc., esp. by a male to a female).
d. a man or boy; chap; fellow: He's a tough baby to have to deal with.
e. an invention, creation, project, or the like that requires one's special attention or expertise or of which one is especially proud.
f. an object; thing: Is that car there your baby?
–adjective
7. of or suitable for a baby: baby clothes.
8. of or like a baby; infantile: baby skin.
9. small; comparatively little: a baby car.
10. treating babies: a baby doctor.
–verb (used with object)
11. to treat like a young child; pamper.
12. to handle or use with special care; treat gently.[/b]
</a>

Quote:
Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary - Cite This Source

Main Entry: fe·tus
Variant: or chiefly British foe·tus /'fEt-&s/
Function: noun
Inflected Form: plural fe·tus·es or chiefly British foe·tus·es or foe·ti /'fEt-"I/
: an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing human from usually three months after conception to birth —compare EMBRYO[/b]
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We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters. ~Gloria Steinem

If a man has been his mother's undisputed darling he retains throughout life the triumphant feeling, the confidence in success, which not seldom brings actual success along with it. ~Sigmund Freud
My mom is a neverending song in my heart of comfort, happiness, and being. I may sometimes forget the words but I always remember the tune. ~Graycie Harmon
Don't wait to make your son a great man - make him a great boy. ~Author Unknown
You don't raise heroes, you raise sons. And if you treat them like sons, they'll turn out to be heroes, even if it's just in your own eyes. ~Walter M. Schirra, Sr.
A man loves his sweetheart the most, his wife the best, but his mother the longest. ~Irish Proverb
Mother's love is peace. It need not be acquired, it need not be deserved. ~Erich Fromm
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it. - Harold Hulbert
Mother is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children. ~William Makepeace Thackeray
God could not be everywhere, so he created mothers. ~Jewish Proverb
The best conversations with mothers always take place in silence, when only the heart speaks. ~Carrie Latet




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  #13  
October 27th, 2006, 04:11 PM
mrobinson
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Quote:
<a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/baby" target="_blank"><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
ba‧by  /ˈbeɪbi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[bey-bee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, plural -bies, adjective, verb, -bied, -by‧ing.
–noun
1. an infant or very young child.
2. a newborn or very young animal.
3. the youngest member of a family, group, etc.
4. an immature or childish person.
5. a human fetus.
6. Informal.
a. Sometimes Disparaging and Offensive. a girl or woman, esp. an attractive one.
b. a person of whom one is deeply fond; sweetheart.
c. (sometimes initial capital letter) an affectionate or familiar address (sometimes offensive when used to strangers, casual acquaintances, subordinates, etc., esp. by a male to a female).
d. a man or boy; chap; fellow: He's a tough baby to have to deal with.
e. an invention, creation, project, or the like that requires one's special attention or expertise or of which one is especially proud.
f. an object; thing: Is that car there your baby?
–adjective
7. of or suitable for a baby: baby clothes.
8. of or like a baby; infantile: baby skin.
9. small; comparatively little: a baby car.
10. treating babies: a baby doctor.
–verb (used with object)
11. to treat like a young child; pamper.
12. to handle or use with special care; treat gently.[/b]
</a>

Quote:
Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary - Cite This Source

Main Entry: fe·tus
Variant: or chiefly British foe·tus /'fEt-&s/
Function: noun
Inflected Form: plural fe·tus·es or chiefly British foe·tus·es or foe·ti /'fEt-"I/
: an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing human from usually three months after conception to birth —compare EMBRYO[/b]
[/b][/quote]
Much like what Rebecca is saying, if I called someone on the debates, baby, then it would likely be offensive. It's about the emotion, good, bad or indifferent to this person as compared to another.
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  #14  
October 28th, 2006, 10:10 AM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Location: Michigan
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Quote:
Much like what Rebecca is saying, if I called someone on the debates, baby, then it would likely be offensive. It's about the emotion, good, bad or indifferent to this person as compared to another.[/b]
I was speaking to whether or not other people are offended & by what terminology - I was speaking to the technicality of the correct terminology.

If you called me a tall, fat, chinese woman I couldn't care less - because I KNOW I am short, thin, & white - KWIM? How does me believing it's a baby cause someone else to be offending simply because they don't believe that? If that other person truly doesn't see it as a baby - then I don't see the problem. I have alot of beliefs others don't share. I am NOT offended that others believe differently.





Quote:
6. Informal.
a. Sometimes Disparaging and Offensive. a girl or woman, esp. an attractive one.
b. a person of whom one is deeply fond; sweetheart.[/b]
The reason calling me baby (from someone here) would be offensive is ONLY because it is informal & used within a specific type of relationship. I work with a ton of men that are very sexist (not at work - but clients. etc) and I don't appreciate being called, hun, seetheart, or babe, etc - becaus ore when they do it - it is specificlaly being used to talk down to me - no one here is using baby in that manner - they are using as a terminolgy for what they believe the subject matter to be. Of course that term can be offensive in that connotation other connotations - such as when you were 11 and fell down & cried & someone said "don't be such a baby". That is not the way it has been used in these forums as far as I've seen.


Editted to add a "NOT" I missed - oops...
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B - Crazy momma to my two boys
We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters. ~Gloria Steinem

If a man has been his mother's undisputed darling he retains throughout life the triumphant feeling, the confidence in success, which not seldom brings actual success along with it. ~Sigmund Freud
My mom is a neverending song in my heart of comfort, happiness, and being. I may sometimes forget the words but I always remember the tune. ~Graycie Harmon
Don't wait to make your son a great man - make him a great boy. ~Author Unknown
You don't raise heroes, you raise sons. And if you treat them like sons, they'll turn out to be heroes, even if it's just in your own eyes. ~Walter M. Schirra, Sr.
A man loves his sweetheart the most, his wife the best, but his mother the longest. ~Irish Proverb
Mother's love is peace. It need not be acquired, it need not be deserved. ~Erich Fromm
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it. - Harold Hulbert
Mother is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children. ~William Makepeace Thackeray
God could not be everywhere, so he created mothers. ~Jewish Proverb
The best conversations with mothers always take place in silence, when only the heart speaks. ~Carrie Latet




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  #16  
October 28th, 2006, 11:45 AM
mrobinson
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Quote:
Quote:
Much like what Rebecca is saying, if I called someone on the debates, baby, then it would likely be offensive. It's about the emotion, good, bad or indifferent to this person as compared to another.[/b]
I was speaking to whether or not other people are offended & by what terminology - I was speaking to the technicality of the correct terminology.

If you called me a tall, fat, chinese woman I couldn't care less - because I KNOW I am short, thin, & white - KWIM? How does me believing it's a baby cause someone else to be offending simply because they don't believe that? If that other person truly doesn't see it as a baby - then I don't see the problem. I have alot of beliefs others don't share. I am offended that others believe differently.

Quote:
6. Informal.
a. Sometimes Disparaging and Offensive. a girl or woman, esp. an attractive one.
b. a person of whom one is deeply fond; sweetheart.[/b]
The reason calling me baby (from someone here) would be offensive is ONLY because it is informal & used within a specific type of relationship. I work with a ton of men that are very sexist (not at work - but clients. etc) and I don't appreciate being called, hun, seetheart, or babe, etc - becaus ore when they do it - it is specificlaly being used to talk down to me - no one here is using baby in that manner - they are using as a terminolgy for what they believe the subject matter to be. Of course that term can be offensive in that connotation other connotations - such as when you were 11 and fell down & cried & someone said "don't be such a baby". That is not the way it has been used in these forums as far as I've seen
[/b]
I'm really surprised at this response because you out of all the people I know have taught me how to respect what words might hurt others...

Abort is the proper term to use.

: to bring forth stillborn, nonviable, or premature offspring
2 : to become checked in development so as to degenerate or remain rudimentary
3 : to terminate a procedure prematurely <the pilot decided to abort due to mechanical difficulties>
transitive verb
1 a : to induce the abortion of or give birth to prematurely b : to terminate the pregnancy of before term
2 a : to terminate prematurely : CANCEL <abort a project> <abort a spaceflight> b : to stop in the early stages <abort a disease>


abort
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  #17  
October 28th, 2006, 12:09 PM
crunchymama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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I thought it was term kill that was offensive not the term baby???
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  #18  
October 29th, 2006, 11:57 AM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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Location: Michigan
Posts: 12,330
Quote:
I'm really surprised at this response because you out of all the people I know have taught me how to respect what words might hurt others...[/b]
I do have respect for what words might hurt others. I am not sure why my response suprises you.

I DID make a major typo - amd I don't know if that changes anything :
Quote:
If you called me a tall, fat, chinese woman I couldn't care less - because I KNOW I am short, thin, & white - KWIM? How does me believing it's a baby cause someone else to be offending simply because they don't believe that? If that other person truly doesn't see it as a baby - then I don't see the problem. I have alot of beliefs others don't share. I am NOT offended that others believe differently.[/b]
I left out the not when I did some editiing while writing. I wouldn't have caught it had you not said you were suprised by my response, so I went back to re-read.

If this in not the reason for confusion - then I guess I just don't understand. So my only question then would be, is it about the use of the word baby? If it is, if I see it as a baby - how is that offensive to others? How is it offensive rather than just a difference of opinion? I am not trying to be snide - I just really don't understand this, if in fact it is what the suprise is about.

(Just wanted to add - I hope what I wrote makes sense & asking the right questins to clarify .)
__________________
B - Crazy momma to my two boys
We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters. ~Gloria Steinem

If a man has been his mother's undisputed darling he retains throughout life the triumphant feeling, the confidence in success, which not seldom brings actual success along with it. ~Sigmund Freud
My mom is a neverending song in my heart of comfort, happiness, and being. I may sometimes forget the words but I always remember the tune. ~Graycie Harmon
Don't wait to make your son a great man - make him a great boy. ~Author Unknown
You don't raise heroes, you raise sons. And if you treat them like sons, they'll turn out to be heroes, even if it's just in your own eyes. ~Walter M. Schirra, Sr.
A man loves his sweetheart the most, his wife the best, but his mother the longest. ~Irish Proverb
Mother's love is peace. It need not be acquired, it need not be deserved. ~Erich Fromm
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it. - Harold Hulbert
Mother is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children. ~William Makepeace Thackeray
God could not be everywhere, so he created mothers. ~Jewish Proverb
The best conversations with mothers always take place in silence, when only the heart speaks. ~Carrie Latet




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  #19  
October 30th, 2006, 07:00 AM
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Posts: 780
As for the original question of "kill", I always say abort. It doesn't offend me when someone says kill because abortion does end a life (even if it's just potential life) and when someone ends something, that is killing. I don't like murder to be used though. Murder and kill to me are completely different and murder is such a gruesome hateful word IMO. Whenever my husband is doing something on my car and he wants me to start it to listen to it then he wants me to turn it off he says "kill it". I've heard the word used here many times as well as when someone is talking about turning off the lights, I've heard "kill the lights". If you say "murder the lights" that brings in a whole new picture. Hope I'm making sense.

Now, for someone being offended by someone else calling a fetus a "baby"..... Beck showed the technical term for baby can also mean human fetus. So by definition, they are technically the same thing. This reminds me of the threads about people feeling hurt or offended by the term "spontaneous abortion" when they had a miscarriage.
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  #20  
October 30th, 2006, 09:10 AM
mrobinson
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I feel like I'm answering the same thing over and over so I'm just re-posting a response I posted in another thread..


Quote:
Quote:
No I don't see a diffrence at all. I see the diffrence that my unborn child will be born and become a living breathing human being, yes I do see that diffrence in my son and a germ. One is human, one is not. One I personally want, the other I could do without. Both are living. My son however is living off of me, if you will. Though my unborn child could survive on his own now, he couldn't as a 7 week fetus. What I said I saw a diffrence in was my unborn child at my 8 week u/s and my baby neice. She is alive, without the help of her mother. I see a diffrence between a child, a living baby outside the womb and a 7 week fetus. That's just my opinnion though. I did see my son as a potential life at 8 weeks, but not as I see my neice who is already alive outside of her mother capable of breathing, eating, and surviving on her own. Without the help of her mothers body.[/b]
Exactly! A tree is life, soil has life, bugs are life, everything is living. It surrounds us. But not everything living survives to continue a full life. Something's in life fulfills it's complete life. This is the world of nature and we are also part of it.

I was thinking about "not validating others babies." I think humans forget we are apart of nature and are not superior in the sense our life is worth more than others. We are the top of the food chain on land but that doesn't make other lives worth less. I think that might be why I don't see eye to eye with many people. I feel they have a human as the most important creature on the earth while I see it as we are apart of nature and are on top of the food chain.
[/b]

Quote:
Quote:
Its a sad reality but why does the word killing a baby offend you so much when its used to refer to abortion? I am pro-choice, I dont get into another womans business when she chooses to have an abortion, and I acknowledge that its a womans right, but how can you deny that its killing?[/b]
I haven't ever acknowledged it's not a life. Everything is life. We kill life daily. I thought the post prior to your exactly explained that humans just don't acknowedge life as equal to humans. Humans see a fetus as far more important. Guess what? It's all life ~ just not at the stage of being capable of living on it's own.
The reason why "killing a baby" is offensive is because it completely negates the compassion and dignity of the true subject of abortion. The people making a choice to to abort a fetus are doing so under circumstances people in judgement can't understand. That's where the empathy is. People can choose to negate those feelings women are dealing with. In fact, they do so daily.
[/b]
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