Log In Sign Up

Talk to me about why it isnt a life


Abortion Debate

This forum is for Abortion debate only. If you are highly sensitive about this topic, read at your own discretion.

Welcome to the JustMommies Message Boards.

We pride ourselves on having the friendliest and most welcoming forums for moms and moms to be! Please take a moment and register for free so you can be a part of our growing community of mothers. If you have any problems registering please drop an email to boards@justmommies.com.

Our community is moderated by our moderation team so you won't see spam or offensive messages posted on our forums. Each of our message boards is hosted by JustMommies hosts, whose names are listed at the top each board. We hope you find our message boards friendly, helpful, and fun to be on!

Reply Post New Topic
  Subscribe To Abortion Debate LinkBack Topic Tools Search this Topic Display Modes
  #1  
January 5th, 2007, 03:21 PM
Super Mommy
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 559
Why is a fetus not a life? at what point do you think it is? can you talk to me about why and what made you come to believe this and maybe what events or writings or research have changed your opinions or solidified them?

Just trying to think deeper about it all and I would like some input from those who feel the fetus is not a life- or not a human life- or not a life until a certain point, etc.
__________________
Frgsonmysox and crunchymama got me with a snowball!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
January 5th, 2007, 03:31 PM
mrobinson
Guest
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Why is a fetus not a life? at what point do you think it is? can you talk to me about why and what made you come to believe this and maybe what events or writings or research have changed your opinions or solidified them?

Just trying to think deeper about it all and I would like some input from those who feel the fetus is not a life- or not a human life- or not a life until a certain point, etc.[/b]
I think I would be one of those people..

To me a baby is something outside the womb, a fetus is something inside a womb. So I have a fetus in my belly, not a baby like everyone else says. It's alive but I see it as a potential life. I think because of how I've seen and heard how fetuses just die, for no explainable reason, even after the point of viablity so many people speak of, I just can't see it as a baby until it's out.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
January 5th, 2007, 03:35 PM
Super Mommy
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 559
Quote:
Quote:
Why is a fetus not a life? at what point do you think it is? can you talk to me about why and what made you come to believe this and maybe what events or writings or research have changed your opinions or solidified them?

Just trying to think deeper about it all and I would like some input from those who feel the fetus is not a life- or not a human life- or not a life until a certain point, etc.[/b]
I think I would be one of those people..

To me a baby is something outside the womb, a fetus is something inside a womb. So I have a fetus in my belly, not a baby like everyone else says. It's alive but I see it as a potential life. I think because of how I've seen and heard how fetuses just die, for no explainable reason, even after the point of viablity so many people speak of, I just can't see it as a baby until it's out.
[/b]
does this affect your abortion views? or are yuo more of a womans choice rather than whether or not it is life?- does that make sense- like some people still believe prochoice even if they think it is a life from the bgeinning
__________________
Frgsonmysox and crunchymama got me with a snowball!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
January 5th, 2007, 03:45 PM
mrobinson
Guest
Posts: n/a
Quote:
does this affect your abortion views? or are yuo more of a womans choice rather than whether or not it is life?- does that make sense- like some people still believe prochoice even if they think it is a life from the bgeinning[/b]
Oh it effects my abortion views. That fetus needs a woman's body to develop. That fetus isn't equal to the woman forced to carry it.. as it may not live anyway. Because it's alive doesn't mean it's going to live. (But we'll just assume it would because we are going to abort it.)
Reply With Quote
  #5  
January 5th, 2007, 05:00 PM
Tersh's Avatar DD nurses her baby too!
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,869
Quote:
I've seen and heard how fetuses just die, for no explainable reason, even after the point of viablity so many people speak of, I just can't see it as a baby until it's out.[/b]
But, they die once they are out too, for no explainable reason.

Quote:
Quote:
does this affect your abortion views? or are yuo more of a womans choice rather than whether or not it is life?- does that make sense- like some people still believe prochoice even if they think it is a life from the bgeinning[/b]
Oh it effects my abortion views. That fetus needs a woman's body to develop. That fetus isn't equal to the woman forced to carry it.. as it may not live anyway. Because it's alive doesn't mean it's going to live. (But we'll just assume it would because we are going to abort it.)
[/b]
I think I actually agree with your sentiment here, just not the wording. Do you think every unplanned pregnancy means the woman is "forced" to carry the baby? What of her actions? Apart from rape, was she "forced" to have sex?

I'll exit here shorty. Sometimes, I need to just agree to disagree and I know on this topic, you and I will!
__________________


Thank you to *~Joni~* for my beautiful siggy!!

Reply With Quote
  #6  
January 5th, 2007, 05:38 PM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 12,330
Quote:
Quote:
Why is a fetus not a life? at what point do you think it is? can you talk to me about why and what made you come to believe this and maybe what events or writings or research have changed your opinions or solidified them?

Just trying to think deeper about it all and I would like some input from those who feel the fetus is not a life- or not a human life- or not a life until a certain point, etc.[/b]
I think I would be one of those people..

To me a baby is something outside the womb, a fetus is something inside a womb. So I have a fetus in my belly, not a baby like everyone else says. It's alive but I see it as a potential life. I think because of how I've seen and heard how fetuses just die, for no explainable reason, even after the point of viablity so many people speak of, I just can't see it as a baby until it's out.
[/b]
I guess that just confuses me. Believe me I know not all babies make it to birth...but I also have known babies that died after birth as well. I don't base my beliefs in whether things go far enough....but whether they ever existed at all.... I don't know - hard for me to explain I guess.
__________________
B - Crazy momma to my two boys
We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters. ~Gloria Steinem

If a man has been his mother's undisputed darling he retains throughout life the triumphant feeling, the confidence in success, which not seldom brings actual success along with it. ~Sigmund Freud
My mom is a neverending song in my heart of comfort, happiness, and being. I may sometimes forget the words but I always remember the tune. ~Graycie Harmon
Don't wait to make your son a great man - make him a great boy. ~Author Unknown
You don't raise heroes, you raise sons. And if you treat them like sons, they'll turn out to be heroes, even if it's just in your own eyes. ~Walter M. Schirra, Sr.
A man loves his sweetheart the most, his wife the best, but his mother the longest. ~Irish Proverb
Mother's love is peace. It need not be acquired, it need not be deserved. ~Erich Fromm
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it. - Harold Hulbert
Mother is the name for God in the lips and hearts of little children. ~William Makepeace Thackeray
God could not be everywhere, so he created mothers. ~Jewish Proverb
The best conversations with mothers always take place in silence, when only the heart speaks. ~Carrie Latet




Reply With Quote
  #7  
January 7th, 2007, 12:00 AM
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 210
Many things are living. People will rate what life has value on their own scales. It is safe to assume that everyone will hold diffrent oppinions about morality as well. People kill things far greater in advancement then an embro on a daily basis just by walking down the street or consuming a meal. Just because something exists in a purley biological sence (an embro) doesn't mean it is "living". I consider something to be alive or living when it can experience it's life. An embro experiences nothing.

IMHO When we can not experience we are not alive. The fact that biologically our bodies may exist (with life support as is the case with a embro/fetus) mean nothing with out our ability to experience life. People who can not expeirence for example are often considered to be brain dead - in an active state of death or mental non-existence - and they are allowed to pass away with out protest from the public eye - if their family's choose to no longer provide life support. Pregnant women who no longer choose to provide life support to unwanted embro's/fetus's that IMO can not be considered to be "alive" should have that right.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
January 7th, 2007, 11:01 AM
Tersh's Avatar DD nurses her baby too!
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,869
Quote:
An embro experiences nothing.[/b]
I guess I disagree. It may not remember, but it experiences plenty. Babies don't have the mental/intellectual capacity to remember what they experience until they are about 2 years old. That doesn't mean they don't experience. I think it's dangerous to start speculating what other's experience. It leads into a slippery slope which suggests that certain mental capacities are required or your experiences to be valid.

By your logic, we should also terminate the lives of all severely mentally handicappped persons?
__________________


Thank you to *~Joni~* for my beautiful siggy!!

Reply With Quote
  #9  
January 7th, 2007, 09:31 PM
mrobinson
Guest
Posts: n/a
I had the feeling from your first post you weren't interested in debating so I didn't respond.. Since you obviously are here to debate...

Quote:
Quote:
I've seen and heard how fetuses just die, for no explainable reason, even after the point of viablity so many people speak of, I just can't see it as a baby until it's out.[/b]
But, they die once they are out too, for no explainable reason. [/b]
Exactly. You are actually proving my point. In the grand scheme of life, we have zero control over life and death. It just happens.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
does this affect your abortion views? or are yuo more of a womans choice rather than whether or not it is life?- does that make sense- like some people still believe prochoice even if they think it is a life from the bgeinning[/b]
Oh it effects my abortion views. That fetus needs a woman's body to develop. That fetus isn't equal to the woman forced to carry it.. as it may not live anyway. Because it's alive doesn't mean it's going to live. (But we'll just assume it would because we are going to abort it.)
[/b]
I think I actually agree with your sentiment here, just not the wording. Do you think every unplanned pregnancy means the woman is "forced" to carry the baby? What of her actions? Apart from rape, was she "forced" to have sex?
[/b]
You don't have to agree with the wording. In fact I think we aren't understanding each other from my post. When I said That fetus isn't equal to the woman forced to carry it I was referring to idea that if the pro-life camp had their way, there would be no abortions, so a woman would indeed be forced to carry a baby. As I am going through my first pregnancy and am only at 12-13 weeks, I can't imagine forcing a woman to go through this changes, let alone the bigger picture of being a mother.

Quote:
Quote:
An embro experiences nothing.[/b]
I guess I disagree. It may not remember, but it experiences plenty. Babies don't have the mental/intellectual capacity to remember what they experience until they are about 2 years old. That doesn't mean they don't experience. I think it's dangerous to start speculating what other's experience. It leads into a slippery slope which suggests that certain mental capacities are required or your experiences to be valid.[/b]
It's a slippery slope to assume a fetus is equal to a woman carrying it as well.

Quote:
By your logic, we should also terminate the lives of all severely mentally handicappped persons?[/b]
I find trying to explain something like abortion hard enough to debate, especially when asked Why is a fetus not a life? as the original poster asked.. As soon as we start to stray off topic, the intent of the thread is lost. Why not just start a whole other thread?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
January 8th, 2007, 09:30 AM
mrobinson
Guest
Posts: n/a
Quote:
ITA with Tersh. [/b]
Why don't you start a new thread then so we can stay on topic in this one?

Reply With Quote
  #12  
January 8th, 2007, 11:05 AM
Tersh's Avatar DD nurses her baby too!
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,869
Quote:
It's a slippery slope to assume a fetus is equal to a woman carrying it as well.[/b]
But, that wasn't my assumption. I was addressing only the idea that embryos experience nothing.

Quote:
I find trying to explain something like abortion hard enough to debate, especially when asked Why is a fetus not a life? as the original poster asked.. As soon as we start to stray off topic, the intent of the thread is lost. Why not just start a whole other thread?[/b]
It was rhetorical anyways. I just don't think we can quantify what is experienced by anybody but oursleves. Which leads me nicely into I think the mother does have the right to determine what is best for her, I'm just not sure I agree with the logic of "the embryo doesn't have the capacity to care."
__________________


Thank you to *~Joni~* for my beautiful siggy!!

Reply With Quote
  #13  
January 8th, 2007, 01:24 PM
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 210
[/quote]
I guess I disagree. It may not remember, but it experiences plenty. Babies don't have the mental/intellectual capacity to remember what they experience until they are about 2 years old. That doesn't mean they don't experience. I think it's dangerous to start speculating what other's experience. It leads into a slippery slope which suggests that certain mental capacities are required or your experiences to be valid.

By your logic, we should also terminate the lives of all severely mentally handicappped persons?
[/quote]"

The mentally handicapped can still experience life. That is the diffrence. The mentally handicapped are also fully born persons. An embro would be more comparable to a brain dead person in terms of its inability to experience. A brain dead person is still a fully born person however - he/she can't really be compared to a embro - except in the sence that both would fail to survive with out voninatry life support. A brain is not even present in an embro. How do you suggest that somthing "experiences" or remembers with out the presence of a brain to hold those experiences & memories? There is no scientific evidence that suggests that an embro (or a fetus for that matter) can "experience" anything. Emrbo's are the very easrilest stage of cell division. Embro's are dividing cells. Saying that an embro can experience is like say that a sperm can experience or a skin cell can experience.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
January 9th, 2007, 09:39 AM
Tersh's Avatar DD nurses her baby too!
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,869
Quote:
Well, if you want to be technical, it is actually the zygotic period (i.e. zygote) that is considered the very earliest stage of pregnancy. That is where the baby (i.e. zygote) looks like a bunch of cells. During the embryonic period (i.e. embryo), it does begin to resemble a human baby (it has begun to develop different layers of skin tissues, heart tissues, brain tissues, limbs, etc., etc.), and it does have a rudimentary brain.

And yes, it has been shown that fetuses CAN experience. And there ARE studies that indicate that fetuses DO remember. I will log on tomorrow to my school's library site and get into the articles (all which are peer-reviewed, medical journals) and post some links to them.

**This post isn't meant to be taken as snotty or anything; just wanted to clarify. **[/b]
psst...I want to respond to you via PM. Your PM box is full
__________________


Thank you to *~Joni~* for my beautiful siggy!!

Reply With Quote
  #17  
January 11th, 2007, 01:43 PM
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 367
On a whole - I agree with mrobinson. For me, the fetus growing inside me didn't become a "life" until I made the decision to keep it. This was an unplanned pregnancy, and I did consider abortion in the beginning. Now that we have made the decision (quite a while ago) to keep Max (the baby), I think of him as a happy, healthy, kicking all the time, life inside of me. The difference between the day before I made that decision and the day after was just that - a decision. It wasn't some biological line in the sand.

I think a woman who is pregnant has an obligation to make that decision sooner rather than later (I don't know when...so please don't ask), but she does have the right to make that decision because it is her body/life it is going to effect. In my view, the bundle of cells inside of her does not have the capacity to live/feel/decide/etc.
__________________
<span style="color:#CC0000">Speak your mind, even if your voice shakes.
-Maggie Kuhn



Reply With Quote
  #19  
January 13th, 2007, 12:31 PM
Super Mommy
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 559
Quote:
Here are some of the articles....

(I am searching for the others)...

Source

Source[/b]
I cant log in without a library ID for the first one. can you post some quotes from it? or maybe I can find it somewhere else with title/author?

ETA_ i enjoyed the second one. I always wondered if anything happened in the brain at the moment oif birth that made the brain more developed post birth. kwim? but this says nothign happens, so neurologically, the fetus insdie the womb and baby after are the same.
__________________
Frgsonmysox and crunchymama got me with a snowball!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Topic Tools Search this Topic
Search this Topic:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:22 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0