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Abortion Debate

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  #22  
February 16th, 2007, 07:21 AM
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The girl had gotten pregnant performed her own abortion out of fear and then out of guilt stabbed herself in the abdomen.[/b]
Yes, this is a horribly sad story. It seems to me, though, that it is the guilt of the abortion that caused her to stab herself in the stomach. Do you think she wouldn't have felt guilt whether or not she got her abortion in a safe clinic?


Quote:
Abortion should be more accessable.

This happened in a country where you can easily get an abortion which made it clear that the option is not being emphasised enough as an option[/b]
These 2 quotes really frighten me as a prolifer. Do you really think that we should be teaching our kids "Abortion is always an option?" I think this would 1) increase the number of abortion. I am against nearly all abortion, but I know that isn't going to happen, so why can't we concentrate on decreasing the number of abortions? I'm sorry, but telling kids in sex education classes that they can always get an abortion will not do this. 2) I think it will increase the incidence of unprotected sex among teens. Kids don't think things through, they don't think about what's going to happen tomorrow. If they are constantly told that abortion will always be an option to help them out when they get into trouble. Abortion should always be a last resort, not a first resort, which I think some kids may view it as.


This may sound harsh, but I blame the mother in this situation. She should have had a more open line of communication with her daughter.
[/b]
The point is she was in a country where abortion is free and counselling is given, she would never have stabbed herself if her pyschiatic state has been asessed.
I balme the mother too.
I'm saying that sex ed here in the UK is POOR. It needs to be improved right from how to protect against pregnancy AND ALL options as to what to do in the event of pregnancy from keeping the baby, to abortion AND adoption. I think its time teens were made aware of all their options. Abortion should be adressed but only as a LAST RESORT.


Quote:
What a horrifying story This is why I will always be pro-choice. The option needs to be there. I am not trying to stir up trouble but my question is, if abortion is free in the UK, why would she perform her own abortion?[/b]
Thats what I am asking myself.. .I can only assume that because she was underage (legally she was having underage sex and and 14/15 the clinic would have to contact her mother) she was too scared her mother would find out - I can't even image what went through that poor girls head.

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(4tinybabyangels @ Feb 15 2007, 05:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>
So cece would you rather girls almsot died because they just didnt know what in the hell to do? YOUR example is not applicable here. These girlsare 14/15 and this is the ONLY way out they can see... your threatening TWO lives... not just one.

Threatening ONE is bad enough but TWO thats just unforgivable.


It doesnt make ME agree with abortion either. I never said it was right. But I would MUCH rather that girl had a SAFE procedure and counselling rather than ending up in the state she did. NO ONE deserves that. NO ONE should ever be that scared and alone and you might not want to accept it because its not acceptable but thats the way it is that is how the world turns. Not everyone has the strength to go through with a pregnancy at 14/15. Not every 15 year old wants to say to their mum "I'm pregnant" out of fear of teir parents rejection and dissaproval... Unwanted pregnancy can be lowered by decent sex ed and what would help in incidence where pregnancy does occur is for parents not to completely lose their heads.... easier said than done, but if that girl felt she could have gone to her mother then I am sure this tragedy would never have happened.[/b]
Elllie, you must have missed the part where I said that they need love, support, and understanding. It isn't the only way (and we all know that there are options...and by 'all' I mean the people here debating, not the girl in this example); if we could only REACH this girl, then she would see (and know) that that ISN'T the only way "out".

Again, two wrongs does NOT make a right. If you don't agree with it, then why the heck ADVOCATE it? You must agree with it to a certain extent Ellie, or you wouldn't ADVOCATE it. Kwim? I can't and I won't ever advocate abortion. It is not acceptable. It does not solve anything. It perpetuates the hurt.

I also wish that there wasn't a stigma out there. Like I've always said, people need to start helping and stop judging. Just because I don't agree with it, and find it to be wrong, doesn't mean that I judge these girls/women to be awful, horrible human beings who deserve to go to hell. The ACT itself, is what I am strongly against.

I don't accept that abortion (i.e. the killing [yes, killing] of a child [or potential child, or fetus, baby, whatever you are comfortable with]) is ever for the "good". It isn't and it never will be. Killing is never the answer. Even in self-defense (and I most certainly wouldn't "blame" anyone in this predicament), I am sure that those who killed in that situation deal with guilt, if not for the actual person killed, then for the family, children, etc. of that person killed. So...killing will always perpetuate hurt.
[/b]
No I don't agree with it but I am not (not sure what the right word is here)... enough to think that making abortion illegal is the answer because then things like the OP happen and to me that is FAR WORSE. If your going to play with life then only play with one and not two, KWIM?

If Sex ed was better if Parents talked more to their kids then abortion would lower - the sad fact is sex ed isn't what it should be, so much so that that girl didn't have a clue what to do when she was pregnant, who to tell or who to go to.

Abortion will ALWAYS happen. Abortion should ALWAYS be a womans choice. I'm not "agreeing" wth the murder of babies I'm talknig about the SAFETY of the people that do want them.
To me abortion is quite simply a case of "You want an abortion? Sure off you go" and "You don't want one? Ok cool congrats on being pregnant" It isn't MY postion, infact it isn't ANYONES position to say "you can't do this with your body". I can't make that choice for anyone. What I CAN do is fight for more information to be given for teens to be better educated to give them a better chance at making the right choice for them.
[/b][/quote]
LOL...were you looking for the word 'stupid' Ellie? LOL, no hard feelings. Maybe 'naive' is a better word. I understand that somewhere, someone will always do whatever it takes to get an abortion. And that's really unfortunate, and incredibly sad, but it still doesn't make abortion right. Have you ever heard the phrase "Two wrongs don't make a right"? This is what is being suggested here (that two wrongs do make a right).

I agree with Tiffany 100%. I also blame the mother for not having a good line of communication present with her daughter. I don't 100% blame the mother, but I do see that some fault lies on her shoulders.
[/b][/quote]

I wasn't looking for stupid. Maybe Naive but not stupid. I just think it makes no sense to endanger two lives. Thats all, its never going to be right, so you may as well at least try and minimise the damage.
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  #23  
February 16th, 2007, 07:33 AM
chloe82
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What a horrifying story This is why I will always be pro-choice. The option needs to be there. I am not trying to stir up trouble but my question is, if abortion is free in the UK, why would she perform her own abortion?[/b]

It is a horrible story. And everyone is using it to say, "see, this is why we need abortion to be easily and readily available to everyone." Um, as this perosn just pointed out, it WAS an option for her to go get one for free! This doesn't prove that we need abortion to be MORE accessible! We just need to reach those who are pregnant and scared and hurting and help them! And by help, I don't mean give them an abortion. I am 100% prolife....yes I realize it's terrible when people do things like this and the mother ends up getting hurt as well as the baby....but as Mommieof3 pointed out, two wrongs don't make a right. Saying that people are going to to it anyways so we should make it safe and more available just doesn't fly ethically with me. You could say that about anything then....people are going to beat their wives, we should just accept it and help make it easier to do so no one else gets hurt....people are going to deal heroin, we should just accept it and give them a way to do it more easily so no one else gets hurt.....what the heck, that makes no sense. Finding a safer way to perform an action doesn't make the action "right". People ARE always going to turn to abortion, safely or unsafely, legal or not. That doesn't make it ok and doesn't mean we should just suck it up and accept and even advocate it.
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  #25  
February 16th, 2007, 07:46 AM
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What a horrifying story This is why I will always be pro-choice. The option needs to be there. I am not trying to stir up trouble but my question is, if abortion is free in the UK, why would she perform her own abortion?[/b]

It is a horrible story. And everyone is using it to say, "see, this is why we need abortion to be easily and readily available to everyone." Um, as this perosn just pointed out, it WAS an option for her to go get one for free! This doesn't prove that we need abortion to be MORE accessible! We just need to reach those who are pregnant and scared and hurting and help them! And by help, I don't mean give them an abortion. I am 100% prolife....yes I realize it's terrible when people do things like this and the mother ends up getting hurt as well as the baby....but as Mommieof3 pointed out, two wrongs don't make a right. Saying that people are going to to it anyways so we should make it safe and more available just doesn't fly ethically with me. You could say that about anything then....people are going to beat their wives, we should just accept it and help make it easier to do so no one else gets hurt....people are going to deal heroin, we should just accept it and give them a way to do it more easily so no one else gets hurt.....what the heck, that makes no sense. Finding a safer way to perform an action doesn't make the action "right". People ARE always going to turn to abortion, safely or unsafely, legal or not. That doesn't make it ok and doesn't mean we should just suck it up and accept and even advocate it.
[/b]
1st bolded statement we are talking about the UK here NOT the US where I believe things are alot different.

2nd - If people are always going to do it legal or not then you may as well minimise the damage cause by making it safe and not losing tow lives instead of one. This is where I find pro-lifers to be selfish. You would risk two lives. I see safe abortion as SAVING one.
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Now I believe in grace and choice,
And I know perhaps my heart is farce,
But Iíll be born without a mask
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  #26  
February 16th, 2007, 07:48 AM
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What a horrifying story This is why I will always be pro-choice. The option needs to be there. I am not trying to stir up trouble but my question is, if abortion is free in the UK, why would she perform her own abortion?[/b]

It is a horrible story. And everyone is using it to say, "see, this is why we need abortion to be easily and readily available to everyone." Um, as this perosn just pointed out, it WAS an option for her to go get one for free! This doesn't prove that we need abortion to be MORE accessible! We just need to reach those who are pregnant and scared and hurting and help them! And by help, I don't mean give them an abortion. I am 100% prolife....yes I realize it's terrible when people do things like this and the mother ends up getting hurt as well as the baby....but as Mommieof3 pointed out, two wrongs don't make a right. Saying that people are going to to it anyways so we should make it safe and more available just doesn't fly ethically with me. You could say that about anything then....people are going to beat their wives, we should just accept it and help make it easier to do so no one else gets hurt....people are going to deal heroin, we should just accept it and give them a way to do it more easily so no one else gets hurt.....what the heck, that makes no sense. Finding a safer way to perform an action doesn't make the action "right". People ARE always going to turn to abortion, safely or unsafely, legal or not. That doesn't make it ok and doesn't mean we should just suck it up and accept and even advocate it.
[/b]
The husband beating his wife analogy just doesn't work here, because it's not HIS body he is choosing to treat that way. The truth is, a woman should be in ownership of her reproductive organs and do as she pleases with her own body and the government should have NO say in it. You may not advocate for abortion, but I do, because I believe a woman's life and decision should be valued over that of a fetus or potential life which cannot exist without the woman.
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  #27  
February 16th, 2007, 07:56 AM
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What a horrifying story This is why I will always be pro-choice. The option needs to be there. I am not trying to stir up trouble but my question is, if abortion is free in the UK, why would she perform her own abortion?[/b]

It is a horrible story. And everyone is using it to say, "see, this is why we need abortion to be easily and readily available to everyone." Um, as this perosn just pointed out, it WAS an option for her to go get one for free! This doesn't prove that we need abortion to be MORE accessible! We just need to reach those who are pregnant and scared and hurting and help them! And by help, I don't mean give them an abortion. I am 100% prolife....yes I realize it's terrible when people do things like this and the mother ends up getting hurt as well as the baby....but as Mommieof3 pointed out, two wrongs don't make a right. Saying that people are going to to it anyways so we should make it safe and more available just doesn't fly ethically with me. You could say that about anything then....people are going to beat their wives, we should just accept it and help make it easier to do so no one else gets hurt....people are going to deal heroin, we should just accept it and give them a way to do it more easily so no one else gets hurt.....what the heck, that makes no sense. Finding a safer way to perform an action doesn't make the action "right". People ARE always going to turn to abortion, safely or unsafely, legal or not. That doesn't make it ok and doesn't mean we should just suck it up and accept and even advocate it.
[/b]
The husband beating his wife analogy just doesn't work here, because it's not HIS body he is choosing to treat that way. The truth is, a woman should be in ownership of her reproductive organs and do as she pleases with her own body and the government should have NO say in it. You may not advocate for abortion, but I do, because I believe a woman's life and decision should be valued over that of a fetus or potential life which cannot exist without the woman.
[/b]
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Now I believe in grace and choice,
And I know perhaps my heart is farce,
But Iíll be born without a mask
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  #29  
February 16th, 2007, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lotus86 @ Feb 16 2007, 10:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>
What a horrifying story This is why I will always be pro-choice. The option needs to be there. I am not trying to stir up trouble but my question is, if abortion is free in the UK, why would she perform her own abortion?[/b]

It is a horrible story. And everyone is using it to say, "see, this is why we need abortion to be easily and readily available to everyone." Um, as this perosn just pointed out, it WAS an option for her to go get one for free! This doesn't prove that we need abortion to be MORE accessible! We just need to reach those who are pregnant and scared and hurting and help them! And by help, I don't mean give them an abortion. I am 100% prolife....yes I realize it's terrible when people do things like this and the mother ends up getting hurt as well as the baby....but as Mommieof3 pointed out, two wrongs don't make a right. Saying that people are going to to it anyways so we should make it safe and more available just doesn't fly ethically with me. You could say that about anything then....people are going to beat their wives, we should just accept it and help make it easier to do so no one else gets hurt....people are going to deal heroin, we should just accept it and give them a way to do it more easily so no one else gets hurt.....what the heck, that makes no sense. Finding a safer way to perform an action doesn't make the action "right". People ARE always going to turn to abortion, safely or unsafely, legal or not. That doesn't make it ok and doesn't mean we should just suck it up and accept and even advocate it.
[/b]
The husband beating his wife analogy just doesn't work here, because it's not HIS body he is choosing to treat that way. The truth is, a woman should be in ownership of her reproductive organs and do as she pleases with her own body and the government should have NO say in it. You may not advocate for abortion, but I do, because I believe a woman's life and decision should be valued over that of a fetus or potential life which cannot exist without the woman.
[/b][/quote]
No it's not HIS body, just as in it's not HER body that is being "treated that way", i.e. killed.
[/b][/quote]

Until the fetus can survive outside the womb, it is an extension of the woman's body.
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  #31  
February 16th, 2007, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lotus86 @ Feb 16 2007, 09:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lotus86 @ Feb 16 2007, 10:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>
What a horrifying story This is why I will always be pro-choice. The option needs to be there. I am not trying to stir up trouble but my question is, if abortion is free in the UK, why would she perform her own abortion?[/b]

It is a horrible story. And everyone is using it to say, "see, this is why we need abortion to be easily and readily available to everyone." Um, as this perosn just pointed out, it WAS an option for her to go get one for free! This doesn't prove that we need abortion to be MORE accessible! We just need to reach those who are pregnant and scared and hurting and help them! And by help, I don't mean give them an abortion. I am 100% prolife....yes I realize it's terrible when people do things like this and the mother ends up getting hurt as well as the baby....but as Mommieof3 pointed out, two wrongs don't make a right. Saying that people are going to to it anyways so we should make it safe and more available just doesn't fly ethically with me. You could say that about anything then....people are going to beat their wives, we should just accept it and help make it easier to do so no one else gets hurt....people are going to deal heroin, we should just accept it and give them a way to do it more easily so no one else gets hurt.....what the heck, that makes no sense. Finding a safer way to perform an action doesn't make the action "right". People ARE always going to turn to abortion, safely or unsafely, legal or not. That doesn't make it ok and doesn't mean we should just suck it up and accept and even advocate it.
[/b]
The husband beating his wife analogy just doesn't work here, because it's not HIS body he is choosing to treat that way. The truth is, a woman should be in ownership of her reproductive organs and do as she pleases with her own body and the government should have NO say in it. You may not advocate for abortion, but I do, because I believe a woman's life and decision should be valued over that of a fetus or potential life which cannot exist without the woman.
[/b][/quote]
No it's not HIS body, just as in it's not HER body that is being "treated that way", i.e. killed.
[/b][/quote]

Until the fetus can survive outside the womb, it is an extension of the woman's body.
[/b][/quote]
No, it is not an "appendage" to the woman's body. It is (biologically) it's own body, with it's own genetic makeup. The woman could not possibly have 92 chromosomes, obviously (since the mother has 46, and the baby has 46...and if it is part of the mother, as in an appendage, then the mother would have 92 chromosomes, until the baby is expelled or born). It is it's own body. It is not an appendage of the mother's body. It is it's own seperate being.
[/b][/quote]

I did not say appendage, for one thing. I'm not saying the fetus is like an arm. But it cannot survive on its own outside the womb, it is relying on her and her only to survive. And therefore, to me, it's an extension to the woman's body. Let's not argue semantics.
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  #33  
February 16th, 2007, 09:10 AM
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Then there are girls who don't have abortions due to lack of accessability, or they feel pressured to keep it and then they end up dumping their baby in a trash can, lake, river, etc.

I am a strong believer in birth control awareness and availability (nurses office) at schools in the U.S. Because you may not be able to stop a girl from having sex, but we can give them options to protect themselves from getting pregnant and ever going through this.
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  #34  
February 16th, 2007, 09:11 AM
chloe82
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lotus86 @ Feb 16 2007, 10:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lotus86 @ Feb 16 2007, 09:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lotus86 @ Feb 16 2007, 10:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>
What a horrifying story This is why I will always be pro-choice. The option needs to be there. I am not trying to stir up trouble but my question is, if abortion is free in the UK, why would she perform her own abortion?[/b]

It is a horrible story. And everyone is using it to say, "see, this is why we need abortion to be easily and readily available to everyone." Um, as this perosn just pointed out, it WAS an option for her to go get one for free! This doesn't prove that we need abortion to be MORE accessible! We just need to reach those who are pregnant and scared and hurting and help them! And by help, I don't mean give them an abortion. I am 100% prolife....yes I realize it's terrible when people do things like this and the mother ends up getting hurt as well as the baby....but as Mommieof3 pointed out, two wrongs don't make a right. Saying that people are going to to it anyways so we should make it safe and more available just doesn't fly ethically with me. You could say that about anything then....people are going to beat their wives, we should just accept it and help make it easier to do so no one else gets hurt....people are going to deal heroin, we should just accept it and give them a way to do it more easily so no one else gets hurt.....what the heck, that makes no sense. Finding a safer way to perform an action doesn't make the action "right". People ARE always going to turn to abortion, safely or unsafely, legal or not. That doesn't make it ok and doesn't mean we should just suck it up and accept and even advocate it.
[/b]
The husband beating his wife analogy just doesn't work here, because it's not HIS body he is choosing to treat that way. The truth is, a woman should be in ownership of her reproductive organs and do as she pleases with her own body and the government should have NO say in it. You may not advocate for abortion, but I do, because I believe a woman's life and decision should be valued over that of a fetus or potential life which cannot exist without the woman.
[/b][/quote]
No it's not HIS body, just as in it's not HER body that is being "treated that way", i.e. killed.
[/b][/quote]

Until the fetus can survive outside the womb, it is an extension of the woman's body.
[/b][/quote]
No, it is not an "appendage" to the woman's body. It is (biologically) it's own body, with it's own genetic makeup. The woman could not possibly have 92 chromosomes, obviously (since the mother has 46, and the baby has 46...and if it is part of the mother, as in an appendage, then the mother would have 92 chromosomes, until the baby is expelled or born). It is it's own body. It is not an appendage of the mother's body. It is it's own seperate being.
[/b][/quote]

I did not say appendage, for one thing. I'm not saying the fetus is like an arm. But it cannot survive on its own outside the womb, it is relying on her and her only to survive. And therefore, to me, it's an extension to the woman's body. Let's not argue semantics.
[/b][/quote]
I wasn't trying to argue semantics...I just saw that you said "extension" and "extension" also means "appendage".

My point was that the baby is it's OWN BEING...so yes, my statement that it is NOT the mother that is being "treated that way" is correct. The analogy to a woman beater is valid, because in both cases, someone is getting hurt. In the abusive case, the woman is getting hurt. In the abortion case, the baby (it's own being) is being hurt...(though the woman is also being hurt, indirectly).


And also, in many cases with domestic violence, the woman DOES rely on the abuser.

It really is accurate.
[/b][/quote]

Yeah, I didn't see it as that much of a logical stretch because I don't see abortion as a simple "women can do what they want with their own bodies".....I would agree with that, except I don't see an unborn baby as nothing more than a part of it's mother's body. I see it as a completely separate human being, with it's own body, soul, purpose, etc. But that is where I guess the line gets drawn in the sand on this whole debate!
As far as my argument, I was mostly just trying to illustrate how making something *better* on the surface, or less harmful, doesn't make that *something* right. For example, I'll try again....if some guy is about to rob a convenience store, should we say, "Heck, he's going to do it anyways, let's make it safer" and give him a toy gun to point in the clerk's face instead of a real gun? It would be safer, maybe less people would be physically harmed, but that in itself doesn't negate the *wrongness* of robbing the store in the first place. Wearing a condom doesn't take away the negativity of cheating on your spouse, although you take away some of the possible negative consequences.
But alas, until we all see eye to eye on the humanity of an unborn baby, the heart of the abortion debate will never end! B)
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  #36  
February 16th, 2007, 05:54 PM
mrobinson
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I think the biggest point being missed here is that anything can be available but if people, in this case, this little girl, don't know about what is available, then it's pointless to have. Had she known about it, maybe there could have been a different result. This case proves more education is needed.

Quote:
The husband beating his wife analogy just doesn't work here, because it's not HIS body he is choosing to treat that way. The truth is, a woman should be in ownership of her reproductive organs and do as she pleases with her own body and the government should have NO say in it. You may not advocate for abortion, but I do, because I believe a woman's life and decision should be valued over that of a fetus or potential life which cannot exist without the woman.[/b]
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  #37  
February 16th, 2007, 06:58 PM
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I still can't get my head around the idea of risking two lives not just one... still can't do it it's just illogical to me..
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