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Abortion Debate

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  #41  
February 16th, 2007, 08:26 PM
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Not my point. My point is I don't understand how some people would make abortion illeagal when everyone knows that stories like this would then become a regular thing. Only many young girls would die.
My question is are you willing to risk two lives instead of one?
Thats not two wrongs = a right cece, thats just plain common sense. I just don't want to live with the fact that stories like this are on the front pages of newpapers because abortion was banned just because I don't agree with it, I couldn't live with it. To me, that would make ME partly responsible for their deaths. The sad fact is women AREN'T all given the right support when they should be. And more needs to be done. But risking TWO lives isn't the answer there either.
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  #43  
February 16th, 2007, 08:39 PM
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Personally (although this doesn't count for me I'm kinda on a double standard here) I would say that the mother should come first purely because she is already here and is someones daughter/sister/cousin where as mostly in these situations no one knows a baby is involved... I think its tragic either way and women shouldn't have to make that choice, but I would put the mothers health above the fetus's...
However if it was me and I was PG (i would never have an abortion) and i got sick or something then I would be telling the doctor to not worry about me but to make sure the baby was ok.

HOWEVER having said all that I am all for BETTER sex education because if sex ed was better then abortion would go down. Birth control needs to be made more accessable for teens (i.e very cheap or free from certain places) because if they are going to have sex they they are going to have sex but they need to be protected, not just against pregnancy obv.

ETA: To me this is more about safety. Abortion to me personally is a needless loss and isn't right but I would much rather know that women/girls that DO have them aren't putting themselves at risk. I also believe abortion is a parenting choice. This is why I am pro-choice. However I am 1000% PRO support, love care and EDUCATION!
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  #44  
February 18th, 2007, 01:45 PM
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I haven't finished reading all of the posts, but the first thing that came to mind for me was....if this girl stabbed herself out of guilt for performing an abortion on her own, who is to say that she would not have stabbed herself out of guilt of she had a legal abortion done at a clinic? She didn't stab herself to CAUSE the abortion, she did it after the fact, and that pretty much states that she would have done it whether it was a professional job or not.
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  #46  
February 18th, 2007, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
you actually ARE reducing the number of deaths (either baby, mother or both) per year by outlawing abortion.[/b]
I contend that outlawing abortion would cause more maternal deaths for two main reasons:

1) illegal abortions
2) more impoverished people having kids (poverty and maternal death/risk are connected, as is neonatal death and poverty)

Also the simple fact that there would be more births.

note: i know not all abortions are gotten by lower income people but the fact remains that the number of births would rise)
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  #47  
February 18th, 2007, 03:19 PM
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for those curious:

Quote:
Prior to Roe v. Wade, as many as 5,000 American women died annually as a direct result of unsafe abortions.4 Today, abortion is one of the most commonly performed clinical procedures in the United States, and the current death rate from abortion at all stages of gestations is 0.6 per 100,000 procedures. This is 11 times safer than childbirth and nearly twice as safe as a penicillin injection.2

According to the WHO, in countries where abortion remains unsafe it is a leading cause of maternal mortality,1 accounting for 78,000 of the 600,000 annual pregnancy-related deaths worldwide.[/b]
Quote:
Approximately 219 women die worldwide each day from an unsafe abortion.5
Six months after abortion was legalized in Guyana in 1995, admissions for septic and incomplete abortion dropped by 41%. Previously, septic abortion had been the third largest, and incomplete abortion the eighth largest, cause of admissions to the country's public hospitals.6 One year after Romania legalized abortion in 1990, its abortion-related mortality rate fell from 142 to 47 deaths per 100,000 live births.7[/b]
from the abortion access project

most of this is from guttmacher, so you can go there to see the full studies.
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  #50  
February 18th, 2007, 03:58 PM
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I totally understand you dont worry (sorry naking). but i was just focusing on the part about maternal death. I feel that the overall rate of maternal death would rise. but i get what you mean about higher death rates for babies if you see the fetus as a full fledged life.
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  #52  
February 18th, 2007, 04:12 PM
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I can't think of a good way to word this. So you really have to pardon the way this is coming out in type here.

There may only be 5,000 maternal deaths (we can safely assume it would be much more; this number was from the 50s and 60s. with the sexual liberation there is now, I would say the number would be 3 times this at least), but there are many people who do not feel it is an acceptable trade to lose 5, 10, or 15,000 women in order to save how ever many fetuses would live. I suppose in that way the already living is "worth" more than the not yet born to some. In addition, there are those who don't see it as a positive to have all these other children in our society as well.
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  #53  
February 18th, 2007, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
Personally (although this doesn't count for me I'm kinda on a double standard here) I would say that the mother should come first purely because she is already here and is someones daughter/sister/cousin where as mostly in these situations no one knows a baby is involved... I think its tragic either way and women shouldn't have to make that choice, but I would put the mothers health above the fetus's...
However if it was me and I was PG (i would never have an abortion) and i got sick or something then I would be telling the doctor to not worry about me but to make sure the baby was ok.

HOWEVER having said all that I am all for BETTER sex education because if sex ed was better then abortion would go down. Birth control needs to be made more accessable for teens (i.e very cheap or free from certain places) because if they are going to have sex they they are going to have sex but they need to be protected, not just against pregnancy obv.

ETA: To me this is more about safety. Abortion to me personally is a needless loss and isn't right but I would much rather know that women/girls that DO have them aren't putting themselves at risk. I also believe abortion is a parenting choice. This is why I am pro-choice. However I am 1000% PRO support, love care and EDUCATION![/b]
Think about this though Ellie:

How many deaths related to self-induced abortion occurred before R vs W per year? Millions and millions? I seriously doubt it. Lots, yea...but not millions and millions.

How many deaths (in terms of the baby, if you believe that the baby is a life [which it is alive...but some people choose not to believe in biology <--not directed at any specific prochoicers, as not all prochoicers are like that, just stating that there are prochoicers like that I am sure]) related to legal abortions (not to mention the other illegal abortions still obviously occuring) have occurred per year since R vs. W? Millions and millions...

So you see...you actually ARE reducing the number of deaths (either baby, mother or both) per year by outlawing abortion. (Unless someone can give me some stats that state millions and millions of women died to back-alley abortions....or at least stating something about the death being SOMEhow logically related to bleeding to death due to hemorrhage of the uterus, etc. It may not specifically state "induced abortion related"...but it would most certainly state something like "uterine hemorrhage", or SOMEthing of that manner).

ETA: I also wanted to add that again, I agree that she would probably have caused herself harm anyway, be it from an illegal or legal abortion. She stabbed herself AFTER inducing the abortion. I doubt she would feel any differently if she did it legally.
[/b]
R. VS. W means nothing to me. I don't know what it is and I doubt it has baring to me seeing as I am the the UK.

Sure she may not have felt differently but she would have been seeing a counsellor and she may NOT have stabbed herself. She may have dealt with her decision entirely differently. You are not lowering the numebr of deaths your rising the numbers of tragedies. These girls shouldn't be running to back allies or using a coathanger cece. Sorry I'm NEVER going to agree abortion should be outlawed I will NEVER put my name to anything that says it should.

I might not agree with abortion for ME but for others well it is jsut not my position to tell them what they can and cannot do. I will NOT have the blood of more people than necessary dying.

The death rate would RISE because you would be losing TWO lives not just one cece thats how it would rise. Because a baby is dying and so is its mother. and to me that is WRONG. If ONE life can be saved then it should be.
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  #55  
February 18th, 2007, 04:55 PM
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What i meant in my post is that there may be those who see both the fetus and the mother as a life, but they, in a way, have more worth in the mother and would not trade the how many maternal deaths prohibiting abortion would bring even in return for the thousands of fetus/baby lives saved. In addition, I also added that there are those that do see both mother and fetus as true human life, but they do not see a positive gain for society by outlawing abortion and having all of those would-be aborted pregnancies come to term.
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  #56  
February 18th, 2007, 04:57 PM
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Actually in the UK to have an abortion you have to have counselling before and AFTER the procedure for a certain amount of time.

And over here is was illegal when 13 year olds weren't getting pregnant and then using a coathanger to abort the pregnancy.

You work out a way to move a baby from uterus to uturus then yes it could be the baby cece but REALISTICALLY that won't ever happen. Yes it should be harder to get an abortion (i.e. time length your allowed one) and it should NOT be used as emergency contraception.

You don't seem to get that a woman who is gonig to have an abortion is set on having one would do it legal or illegal. It doesnt make it right. But I do not see why the hell she should die because she wanted an abortion and used a coathanger. I really just don't see that.

I will never take away choice and I would never condem a baby to death but at the end of the some women will do it no matter and they don't deserve to die in the process.
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  #57  
February 18th, 2007, 04:58 PM
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This is the counseling page from the Kensington Clinic, it looks like they offer much more than just a 30 min session:

link
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  #60  
February 18th, 2007, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
What i meant in my post is that there may be those who see both the fetus and the mother as a life, but they, in a way, have more worth in the mother and would not trade the how many maternal deaths prohibiting abortion would bring even in return for the thousands of fetus/baby lives saved. In addition, I also added that there are those that do see both mother and fetus as true human life, but they do not see a positive gain for society by outlawing abortion and having all of those would-be aborted pregnancies come to term.[/b]
Ah I see, I thought you were just strictly speaking of those who don't see the fetus as worthy in any respect.

I think I understand.....Ellie, do you see the fetus as less worthy than the mother? If so, then I understand.

Quote:
Actually in the UK to have an abortion you have to have counselling before and AFTER the procedure for a certain amount of time.

And over here is was illegal when 13 year olds weren't getting pregnant and then using a coathanger to abort the pregnancy.

You work out a way to move a baby from uterus to uturus then yes it could be the baby cece but REALISTICALLY that won't ever happen. Yes it should be harder to get an abortion (i.e. time length your allowed one) and it should NOT be used as emergency contraception.

You don't seem to get that a woman who is gonig to have an abortion is set on having one would do it legal or illegal. It doesnt make it right. But I do not see why the hell she should die because she wanted an abortion and used a coathanger. I really just don't see that.

I will never take away choice and I would never condem a baby to death but at the end of the some women will do it no matter and they don't deserve to die in the process.[/b]
If they are dead set on it, knowing the risks, HAVE the support, love and understanding...then....well, I am NOT going to say that she deserves to die...absolutely not...but I AM going to say that...everyone makes choices...and well...I dunno what to say.

It doesn't negate the fact that more deaths are involved in legal abortion, than in outlawing abortion (again, if you believe the fetus to be a full fledged life).

IMO, if you agree with abortion...IMO, yes, in a way you are condemning those babies to death, INDIRECTLY.

To the bolded: And neither do the babies. At least with outlawing, the more babies would be saved. Again, if you are saying that the mother is more worthy/important, then I understand why you wouldn't want to outlaw abortion. Then I get it. But otherwise, if you feel that the baby is a fully fledged life, I don't get it...
[/b]
Bolded: DING DING DING!!!! EXACTLY EVERYONE MAKES CHOICES!!! Good or bad they DO NOT DESERVE TO DIE FROM THEM.

the rest of the post: I DON'T AGREE WITH ABORTION. I just don't think banning it is the right answer. I think making it harder to get one (i.e having a shorter time in which you can get one - 12wks) and then giving the support tc NEEDED and eduction on EVERYTHING including the RISKS is important.

I can only tell you how I feel cece I cannot speak for every woman in the world and neither can you. By outlawing abortion thats exactly what you would be doing. And that is not right.
People might bash this but who cares: When i was pregnant I woud have done ANYTHING to keep my baby safe sadly there was nothnig i could do... but I would have put the baby before ME. The thing is nto every woman will and that is why I am pro choice. Because I can only speak for me. And i will NOT take away ANYONES right to choose.
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Now I believe in grace and choice,
And I know perhaps my heart is farce,
But I値l be born without a mask
~ Babel, Mumford & Sons



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