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A tadpole...


Abortion Debate

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  #2  
February 15th, 2007, 06:59 AM
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it's only the same in that the tadpole becomes a frog and the fetus becomes a baby. But they are very different because a tadpole isn't dependent on it's mother for survival. When you see a tadpole, it's swimming by itself. A fetus is completely dependent on the mother for survival.
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  #3  
February 15th, 2007, 06:59 AM
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the tadpole is living independently, it is in no way comparable to a fetus. It is viable and alive on its own.
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  #4  
February 15th, 2007, 07:10 AM
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I also want to say that cross specie comparisons like this are really not very logical to make. Mammals are so extremely different than amphibians (sp?). Developmentally, there really are few comparisons that work in the abortion debate, especially consideringhuman fetuses develope within other humans, which means that development has a direct affect on another human (the mother).

If humans could lay eggs and leave it at that, the abortion debate would not exist.

This whole comparison just doesn't work for me.
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  #6  
February 15th, 2007, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Quote:
I also want to say that cross specie comparisons like this are really not very logical to make. Mammals are so extremely different than amphibians (sp?). Developmentally, there really are few comparisons that work in the abortion debate, especially consideringhuman fetuses develope within other humans, which means that development has a direct affect on another human (the mother).

If humans could lay eggs and leave it at that, the abortion debate would not exist.

This whole comparison just doesn't work for me.[/b]
I can understand what you're saying. Then its worse because you are suppose to be responsible for the fetus. A tadpole is lucky because it has the opportunity to become a frog because it is already viable and has the choice.
[/b]
actually, the aren't very lucky. Frogs lay so many eggs because the chances of many or any of them becoming frogs is very small. hence, they go with the quantity approach.
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  #8  
February 15th, 2007, 07:34 AM
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I'm off to take the kids to art class, but I'll go on when Iget back.

The fetus has no rights because it is deemed not a person, it is living off its mother, risks of pregnancy...uh, i think the supreme court might have had a few other reasons but I will continue when i get back to talk about them all.
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  #10  
February 15th, 2007, 09:42 AM
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FTR, I believe its a life too...from the moment of conception. But...it's still not my place to tell another woman that she has to go through the changes of pregnancy and motherhood. I had a fairly easy pregnancy...until the end when I was swelled up beyond belief. I had support of family and friends. Not everyone has that. I can't imagine going through a pregnancy (especially an unwanted one) without a support system.

While I personally probably wouldn't choose to have an abortion, I can't expect others to feel the same way I do.
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  #12  
February 15th, 2007, 09:56 AM
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I just dont see how people can think that a fetus at any age isnt life and it is okay to terminate.[/b]
I will first talk about the legal view and then I'll go into a few of the other arguments I know of that do not have anything to do really with the legal view.

In Roe v Wade, the supreme court ruled that it was impossible to decide when "life" begins (and here they are talking about life meaning a kind of personhood that would make that life subject to the 14th amendment and give that life a right to life which could not be taken without due process)

"We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins. When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man's knowledge, is not in a position to speculate as to the answer."

So, the answer to your question could be found right there: you wonder how anyone can feel it isn't a life, and here we have the supreme court saying they cannot come to agreement on the answer.


Moving away from legal opinions, there are many that feel that the fetus is not a life becuase they think of life (that is, again, "life" in the sense of a person, a person with rights) begins with sentience. A Zygote, with no working brain, a fetus without the necessary connections between brain and body (oversimplification I know) is not seen to be a sentient being. Nor has the fetus ever had sentience. People often throw in "what about brain dead people, don't they have rights?" as an objection to this argument. The fact is that the brain dead persons' rights are in the hands of someone else or that of legal direction decided on before the brain dead state occurred. Often those giving this argument believe sentience begins in late pregnancy (as does the ability to feel pain) and then the rights of the fetus can be considered.

however, then other arguments come into play (but that's another thread).

Others feel the fetus is only potential life, and that potential life is not the life to be given rights.
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  #13  
February 15th, 2007, 10:12 AM
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Just wanted to add that I have simplified the sentience argument, usually people who argue this talk about degrees of sentience and stages and i dont know what else. I don't think I've seen this totally argued on this site, maybe with the exception of maybe Miguelsmommy...but I think she might be more towards potential life argument. maybe she will weigh in here.


The potential life argument is like the old "it's an acorn not an oak" saying.
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  #15  
February 15th, 2007, 10:29 AM
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Pain is an interesting argument because prolifers basically only have stimuli response on their side. Other than that, due to the connections in the cortex having not yet formed or penetrated deep enough, pain as we know it is impossible. No connections, no cortex penetration, no pain.:

Quote:
The undisputed discovery that the neonate and fetus launch a hormonal and neural response to invasive practice cannot be considered proof there is an experience of pain. An experience implies sensations have been interpreted in a conscious manner. Even when combined with the observations of behavior and improved clinical outcome when using anesthetics, there is still no proof there is an experience of pain. Although all of these phenomena are associated with the notion of “pain,” none of them adequately describe or explain the phenomenological experience of “pain.” These phenomena may exist independently of conscious experience. The relationship between the physiological responses of nociceptors, the hormonal and other responses of the CNS, and the behavioral outcome of these changes to the psychological response are yet to be determined (Wall & McMahon, 1986).[/b]
Even penetration does not necessarily equal pain:

Quote:
A further reason to doubt the viability of fetal pain post-26 weeks’ gestation is the development of the fetal cortex. Although the thalamocortical fibers penetrate the cortical plate at approximately 26 weeks’ gestation, the cortical regions that have been identified as important in processing the various components of pain (Derbyshire, 2000) do not become fully responsive until after birth (Chugani & Phelps, 1986).[/b]
Quote:
The issue of fetal pain is controversial. There is an emerging consensus among developmental neurobiologists that the establishment of thalamocortical connections (at about 26 weeks) is a critical event with regard to fetal perception of sensory pain.[2] However, there is more than one type of pain, including both sensory and emotional pain.[3] [4] Because pain can involve emotional and cognitive factors, it is unclear when painful experiences may become possible, even if it is known when thalamocortical connections are established.[2] Laws have been proposed to anesthetize a fetus in order to reduce the possibility of pain during abortion.[5][/b]
(this one is from wiki)


So, those with a sentient argument accept abortion usually without question until about this time when then it becomes murky and some have other arguments that begin (such as the ones I proposed in the late term thread)
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  #17  
February 15th, 2007, 10:43 AM
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The thalamocortical fibers do not "connect" so to speak, in my nonmedical jargin , until 26 weeks.
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