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The evolution of your beliefs about abortion


Abortion Debate

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  #21  
February 19th, 2007, 07:33 PM
irishxrose
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I was raised pro-choice, and I will always be pro-choice. My beliefs were strengthened when I had an unplanned pregnancy. I CHOSE life for my child. Others do not choose life, but they have the ability to CHOOSE what is best for their life, their world, and their child. If what is best for the child is abortion, than I respect their decision. I would rather have someone get an abortion than bring a child into a world where they cannot be provided for. Also, if someone does not want to be pregnant, no one has the right to tell them they MUST bring the child into the world. NO ONE has the right to tell me what I do with my body, how many children I have to carry, how many children I have, etc.

I'm totally rambling, aren't I?
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  #22  
February 19th, 2007, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
I was raised pro-choice, and I will always be pro-choice. My beliefs were strengthened when I had an unplanned pregnancy. I CHOSE life for my child. Others do not choose life, but they have the ability to CHOOSE what is best for their life, their world, and their child. If what is best for the child is abortion, than I respect their decision. I would rather have someone get an abortion than bring a child into a world where they cannot be provided for. Also, if someone does not want to be pregnant, no one has the right to tell them they MUST bring the child into the world. NO ONE has the right to tell me what I do with my body, how many children I have to carry, how many children I have, etc.

I'm totally rambling, aren't I?[/b]
I totally agree though!
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And I know perhaps my heart is farce,
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  #23  
February 19th, 2007, 07:56 PM
irishxrose
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Well that's good!
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  #25  
February 19th, 2007, 09:03 PM
irishxrose
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I know darlin'. It's all good.
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  #26  
February 19th, 2007, 10:11 PM
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When I was a teen & knew nothing about the biological facts of abortion or it's surrounding issues(womens rights) I was very much "anti-abortion" but not "pro-life". I had never herd of abortion legislation or the fight to illegalize abortion so I didn't care about pro-life/pro-chioce. I just (wrongly) thought that girls who "killed" thier "babies" were horrible people. Two of my closest childhood friends - who both went on to be teenaged moms ( 1 an excellent mother & the other a verbally abusive highly overwhelmed mother who IMO has left & is leaving her child a legacy of emotional turmiol if she doesn't change her ways) - are pro-life and we are able to respect each others views & boundries on the subject. Occasionally I silently believe that they are not fully educated on some important aspects of the issues but I don't bring it up unless asked which is rarly. I began working for a non-profit organization that was secular - non-denomination - and with out a formal organizational stance on non related issues like abortion. It really opened my eyes & the staff encouraged free thinking & acceptance of diffrences. Really changed my life.
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  #27  
February 20th, 2007, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
When you say it should be allowed "through birth," exactly what does that mean? Once the child has completely exited the birth canal and is outside the mother's body, what are your thoughts then?[/b]
In natrual labor.
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  #28  
February 20th, 2007, 03:05 AM
babyreaves's Avatar Super Mommy
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Quote:
of course that would be my problem i could be hit by a drunk driver or be involved in a crash with a drunk driver.
I can in no way be harmed by someone elses abortion.

No not at all. I believe abortion is a parenting choice (one i would rarely take). I wouldn't have one without believing my child would have NO quality of life or perhaps if I was raped ( still unsure on this). I wouldnt have one as birth control thus I am not giving up my integrity.[/b]
I agree with what you have said from the start, I guess sometimes other people read into what you're saying the wrong way and it gets misinterprited.

I grew up with a pretty liberal, open-minded family, so I believe that everyone has a choice and it is their's as long as they are willing to live with it later down the road.

My parents always said if I got pregnant they would take care of me and the baby if it came down to that. But, if I was raped...then that might be a different story
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  #29  
February 20th, 2007, 07:21 AM
chloe82
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Quote:
of course that would be my problem i could be hit by a drunk driver or be involved in a crash with a drunk driver.
I can in no way be harmed by someone elses abortion.[/b]
I'm sorry but I have a heck of a hard time understanding your responses. Since when are laws only valid if they affect YOU directly? If someone you don't know abuses their own child you can't say, Well, that should be legal then because it doesn't affect me, it's not my problem and even though I think it's wrong and I wouldn't do it myself, who am I to tell them not to?
Laws are there to protect people from having their rights infringed upon by other people, are they not? To me, having abortion be legal or not is the same kind of idea.
As I consider an unborn child a person, equal to any other person in the world, I am strongly pro-life and do wish abortion was illegal. I understand it's a complex issue and have become more aware of the many facets to the PC argument but still can't budge from the fact that IMO millions of people are being killed every year simply because they weren't wanted by someone else.
I have always been pro-life, mostly due to my Christian beliefs and specifically the belief that God created all life with a plan and a purpose, even if we can't see it right away, and it is a terrible thing for people to take it upon themselves to end any life for any reason. However, even when I step away from the spiritual side of it, I can't even stomach the thought of what abortion entails. I can say pretty much for sure that if I wasn't a Christian I would still be pro-life as I personally can't help but see an unborn baby as a person, a human being with their whole life ahead of them. Debating on here has only served to strengthen my opinion, although I do have more understanding of other people's reasonings than I used to. I guess where I stand on other people's POVs is....I can understand people's PC stance when they do not consider a fetus to be a person...however for those who do, I cannot begin to comprehend how they can say in the next breath, "but if other people want to do it that's their choice." That, to me, makes ZERO sense. You could say that about anything done to another person then, IMO.....well, if someone else wants to hurt their spouse or child or a random stranger, well, sure it sucks, but who am I to stop them from choosing to do so?
Again, the PC stance to me at least makes some sense when a fetus is not considered to be a person ..I don't agree, but I get it. People who say they are PC but they do think a fetus is a person, human, whatever....well then I am completely lost.
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  #30  
February 20th, 2007, 07:30 AM
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I'll post my smoker analogy here:

I do not agree with smoking and I do not wish that smoking numbers would rise in any way. However, I do not believe there should be laws telling people they cannot smoke in their own house. I do not agree with smoking in your house, but I believe the choice should remain.

Thus, someone who sees the fetus as a life may still believe the choice to do what one wishes with their own body should be there. Thus, the choice to abort should be there. However, this same person may work actively to stop abortion via other means than taking away the choice.

Hence, someone who believes the fetus to be a life may still agree with allowing the choice to abort.

Quote:
I'm sorry but I have a heck of a hard time understanding your responses. Since when are laws only valid if they affect YOU directly?[/b]
and to this...

that is exactly what the poster is saying. drunk driving may be a personal choice, but that choice affects other people in a dangerous way; hence, it is illegal.

Abortion does not affect her/others in any way (no legal persons are affected besides the mother, the one making the choice); hence, it is legal.
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  #31  
February 20th, 2007, 08:12 AM
chlodoll
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I have always been pro-choice. I had never met someone who was not until I came to JM. I think in Canada since abortions are free and covered by healthcare its not a huge debate or huge divide. Atleast where I live. I had an abortion when I was 16, which I remained pro-choice after and since having a child I am 10 times more pro-choice then I was before.
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  #32  
February 20th, 2007, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
I have always been pro-choice. I had never met someone who was not until I came to JM. I think in Canada since abortions are free and covered by healthcare its not a huge debate or huge divide. Atleast where I live. I had an abortion when I was 16, which I remained pro-choice after and since having a child I am 10 times more pro-choice then I was before.[/b]
That's interesting because it is the opposite of where I grew up. Because abortion was illegal and condemned by both law and the church (and catholic was the official religion), there was no prochoice debate. Abortion was almost universally seen as a horrible thing.
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  #33  
February 20th, 2007, 08:23 AM
chloe82
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Quote:
I'll post my smoker analogy here:

I do not agree with smoking and I do not wish that smoking numbers would rise in any way. However, I do not believe there should be laws telling people they cannot smoke in their own house. I do not agree with smoking in your house, but I believe the choice should remain.

Thus, someone who sees the fetus as a life may still believe the choice to do what one wishes with their own body should be there. Thus, the choice to abort should be there. However, this same person may work actively to stop abortion via other means than taking away the choice.

Hence, someone who believes the fetus to be a life may still agree with allowing the choice to abort.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
I'm sorry but I have a heck of a hard time understanding your responses. Since when are laws only valid if they affect YOU directly?[/b]
and to this...

that is exactly what the poster is saying. drunk driving may be a personal choice, but that choice affects other people in a dangerous way; hence, it is illegal.

Abortion does not affect her/others in any way (no legal persons are affected besides the mother, the one making the choice); hence, it is legal.
[/b][/quote]

I totally understand why abortion is illegal. I recognize that the government/law does not consider a fetus to be a legal person and thus it has not rights.....what I don't understand is how people who DO consider a fetus to be a person can ALSO profess to be PC. IF a fetus is indeed a person, should it not be protected just as much as every other person out there? I mean, we don't argue with murder being illegal, or rape, or child abuse, just becasue it's someone else's right to choose to do that even though we don't agree with it....no, we recognize that it is not an acceptable choice for anyone and recognize the need to protect others from others' harmful choices.
I "get" when people say a fetus is not yet a person...again, I don't agree according to my personal beliefs, but I can see how people can be PC with this stance. It makes sense.
I DON'T "get" how you can think a fetus is a person and then blow off abortion by saying it's someone else's choice. That's where it seems you could say the same thing about any other murder/abuse/whatever else law. KWIM? It's just not logical.
The only logical loophole I could see with that is if someone acknowledges that a fetus is a person but is PC only in the case where the mother will die if the baby is carried to term. Again, I don't agree with that but it makes sense in terms of being able to call it self-defense. But those cases are few and far between and I don't think that's what the poster was talking about. I guess I was responding to the poster who has stated that she believes unborn children are people, (either in this thread or a different one, I'm not exactly sure) but is still PC. I can't for the life of me make sense of that POV.
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  #34  
February 20th, 2007, 08:25 AM
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I don't know how else to put it. Some people value both the life and the choice, freewill, laisse faire (totally mispelled), or whatever you want to call it.

I know it may seem weird if you are one who holds life above choice, but there do exist people who value life and wish to protect life but do it another way besides taking away choice.

God could have easily stopped murder by taking away man's choice to do so. He seems to have chosen a different path, correct? It's the same idea.
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  #35  
February 20th, 2007, 08:35 AM
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Another example of an argument from someone who believes the fetus is a full life:

I believe the fetus is a fully fledged human. However, making abortion illegal would create a huge social crisis acorss the globe and even here in the USA. There would be too many children and not enough resources, not enough families for all those that needed one. I do not agree with this situation, and I cannot be prolife until conditions change to ensure that this problem of too many children without enough resources is solved, even though I believe the fetus is a life.
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  #36  
February 20th, 2007, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Quote:
of course that would be my problem i could be hit by a drunk driver or be involved in a crash with a drunk driver.
I can in no way be harmed by someone elses abortion.[/b]
I'm sorry but I have a heck of a hard time understanding your responses. Since when are laws only valid if they affect YOU directly? If someone you don't know abuses their own child you can't say, Well, that should be legal then because it doesn't affect me, it's not my problem and even though I think it's wrong and I wouldn't do it myself, who am I to tell them not to?
Laws are there to protect people from having their rights infringed upon by other people, are they not? To me, having abortion be legal or not is the same kind of idea.

As I consider an unborn child a person, equal to any other person in the world, I am strongly pro-life and do wish abortion was illegal. I understand it's a complex issue and have become more aware of the many facets to the PC argument but still can't budge from the fact that IMO millions of people are being killed every year simply because they weren't wanted by someone else.

I have always been pro-life, mostly due to my Christian beliefs and specifically the belief that God created all life with a plan and a purpose, even if we can't see it right away, and it is a terrible thing for people to take it upon themselves to end any life for any reason. However, even when I step away from the spiritual side of it, I can't even stomach the thought of what abortion entails. I can say pretty much for sure that if I wasn't a Christian I would still be pro-life as I personally can't help but see an unborn baby as a person, a human being with their whole life ahead of them. Debating on here has only served to strengthen my opinion, although I do have more understanding of other people's reasonings than I used to. I guess where I stand on other people's POVs is....I can understand people's PC stance when they do not consider a fetus to be a person...however for those who do, I cannot begin to comprehend how they can say in the next breath, "but if other people want to do it that's their choice." That, to me, makes ZERO sense. You could say that about anything done to another person then, IMO.....well, if someone else wants to hurt their spouse or child or a random stranger, well, sure it sucks, but who am I to stop them from choosing to do so?
Again, the PC stance to me at least makes some sense when a fetus is not considered to be a person ..I don't agree, but I get it. People who say they are PC but they do think a fetus is a person, human, whatever....well then I am completely lost.
[/b]
A person being abusive to any other person is my problem because they could be abusive to me.
Murder affects me because I could be murdered or know someone that has been murdered (As I do)
Theft affects me because I could be stolen from (and have in my time)
Rape affects me because I could be raped.
Abortion doesn't affect me because it wouldn't be me having one (without the cirumcstances i have already pointed out)

The difference to me is this: A baby has had little affect on anyones life ony the mother can truely bond with that child and in some cases that doesn't really happen. Someone already born has had a chance to bond with more people helped to create a family unit and have spent time with them. (now i'm not saying therefore a 1 year olds life is worth less than an 80 year olds - I just think that more bonds can be formed outside of the womb.) A baby's arrival can rip families apart and abortion to those families IS an answer.
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Cause I know my weakness, know my voice,
Now I believe in grace and choice,
And I know perhaps my heart is farce,
But Iíll be born without a mask
~ Babel, Mumford & Sons



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  #37  
February 20th, 2007, 11:41 AM
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I grew up in a so-sp Episcopalian home (i.e., went to church on major holidays, but other than that, not really). So that wasn't really a major influence in how I thought. When I hit my high school years I became really liberal, dipping into vegetarianism and protests and such. At that point, I was vehemently pro-choice.

I got married, and then pregnant 8 months later, about 3 years after I graduated high school. I think that (pregnancy) really shook my pro-choice view, in combination with living in a more conservative state (Alaska). I remember talking to my mom on the phone early in the pregnancy, and expressing to her how I couldn't understand how someone could kill this child that was growing inside me (or them), without going crazy. We'd seen the heartbeat, we saw the ultrasound. It was a baby to me, even at 10 weeks, and my old pro-choice skin shed a bit right there lol And so I became vehemently pro-life.

Now, I guess I've converted from Christianity to Buddhism (I practice Buddhism in my day-to-day life, in any case), it wasn't really something I did on purpose, it just happened. I get too tired trying to uphold steadfast views to people who don't see things the same way I do (breastfeeding, anti-circ'ing, anti-abortion), and I guess have realized through a lot of trial and error that - haha, you can't control what other people want or think! Not only that, but you shouldn't control what other people want or think, because who the heck are you? Ya know? So I guess I'm pro-choice now - however, I still consider abortion to be killing - but, I reserve judgement because everyone deserves my compassion, I can't pick and choose that. Also, I'm not the one who has the deal with the consequences of the action. Not to mention, the energy will just be reincarnated elsewhere.
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  #39  
February 20th, 2007, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I'll post my smoker analogy here:

I do not agree with smoking and I do not wish that smoking numbers would rise in any way. However, I do not believe there should be laws telling people they cannot smoke in their own house. I do not agree with smoking in your house, but I believe the choice should remain.

Thus, someone who sees the fetus as a life may still believe the choice to do what one wishes with their own body should be there. Thus, the choice to abort should be there. However, this same person may work actively to stop abortion via other means than taking away the choice.

Hence, someone who believes the fetus to be a life may still agree with allowing the choice to abort.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
<div class='quotemain'> I'm sorry but I have a heck of a hard time understanding your responses. Since when are laws only valid if they affect YOU directly?[/b]
and to this...

that is exactly what the poster is saying. drunk driving may be a personal choice, but that choice affects other people in a dangerous way; hence, it is illegal.

Abortion does not affect her/others in any way (no legal persons are affected besides the mother, the one making the choice); hence, it is legal.
[/b]
I totally understand why abortion is illegal. I recognize that the government/law does not consider a fetus to be a legal person and thus it has not rights.....what I don't understand is how people who DO consider a fetus to be a person can ALSO profess to be PC. IF a fetus is indeed a person, should it not be protected just as much as every other person out there? I mean, we don't argue with murder being illegal, or rape, or child abuse, just becasue it's someone else's right to choose to do that even though we don't agree with it....no, we recognize that it is not an acceptable choice for anyone and recognize the need to protect others from others' harmful choices.
I "get" when people say a fetus is not yet a person...again, I don't agree according to my personal beliefs, but I can see how people can be PC with this stance. It makes sense.
I DON'T "get" how you can think a fetus is a person and then blow off abortion by saying it's someone else's choice. That's where it seems you could say the same thing about any other murder/abuse/whatever else law. KWIM? It's just not logical.
The only logical loophole I could see with that is if someone acknowledges that a fetus is a person but is PC only in the case where the mother will die if the baby is carried to term. Again, I don't agree with that but it makes sense in terms of being able to call it self-defense. But those cases are few and far between and I don't think that's what the poster was talking about. I guess I was responding to the poster who has stated that she believes unborn children are people, (either in this thread or a different one, I'm not exactly sure) but is still PC. I can't for the life of me make sense of that POV.
[/b][/quote]


Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
of course that would be my problem i could be hit by a drunk driver or be involved in a crash with a drunk driver.
I can in no way be harmed by someone elses abortion.[/b]
I'm sorry but I have a heck of a hard time understanding your responses. Since when are laws only valid if they affect YOU directly? If someone you don't know abuses their own child you can't say, Well, that should be legal then because it doesn't affect me, it's not my problem and even though I think it's wrong and I wouldn't do it myself, who am I to tell them not to?
Laws are there to protect people from having their rights infringed upon by other people, are they not? To me, having abortion be legal or not is the same kind of idea.

As I consider an unborn child a person, equal to any other person in the world, I am strongly pro-life and do wish abortion was illegal. I understand it's a complex issue and have become more aware of the many facets to the PC argument but still can't budge from the fact that IMO millions of people are being killed every year simply because they weren't wanted by someone else.

I have always been pro-life, mostly due to my Christian beliefs and specifically the belief that God created all life with a plan and a purpose, even if we can't see it right away, and it is a terrible thing for people to take it upon themselves to end any life for any reason. However, even when I step away from the spiritual side of it, I can't even stomach the thought of what abortion entails. I can say pretty much for sure that if I wasn't a Christian I would still be pro-life as I personally can't help but see an unborn baby as a person, a human being with their whole life ahead of them. Debating on here has only served to strengthen my opinion, although I do have more understanding of other people's reasonings than I used to. I guess where I stand on other people's POVs is....I can understand people's PC stance when they do not consider a fetus to be a person...however for those who do, I cannot begin to comprehend how they can say in the next breath, "but if other people want to do it that's their choice." That, to me, makes ZERO sense. You could say that about anything done to another person then, IMO.....well, if someone else wants to hurt their spouse or child or a random stranger, well, sure it sucks, but who am I to stop them from choosing to do so?
Again, the PC stance to me at least makes some sense when a fetus is not considered to be a person ..I don't agree, but I get it. People who say they are PC but they do think a fetus is a person, human, whatever....well then I am completely lost.
[/b]
A person being abusive to any other person is my problem because they could be abusive to me.
Murder affects me because I could be murdered or know someone that has been murdered (As I do)
Theft affects me because I could be stolen from (and have in my time)
Rape affects me because I could be raped.
Abortion doesn't affect me because it wouldn't be me having one (without the cirumcstances i have already pointed out)

The difference to me is this: A baby has had little affect on anyones life ony the mother can truely bond with that child and in some cases that doesn't really happen. Someone already born has had a chance to bond with more people helped to create a family unit and have spent time with them. (now i'm not saying therefore a 1 year olds life is worth less than an 80 year olds - I just think that more bonds can be formed outside of the womb.) A baby's arrival can rip families apart and abortion to those families IS an answer.
[/b]
Does something make it 'ok', acceptable, etc., just because it doesn't affect you personally? IMO, that's very egocentric and a bit selfish. I realize everyone deals/relates with this (egocentrism, after all, we are a very selfish species) in one form or another in certain situations/subjects, but to base something's 'wrongness' (especially in a situation where ending a life is involved), I dunno, I just think that is dangerously indifferent, and a bit hypocritical, especially if one agrees that the unborn is a life (more than just biologically speaking).

I agree with Chloe.
[/b][/quote]

Except I think forcing women to undergo an unwanted pregnancy is selfish cece so there we go.
I've already pointed out mothers life goes above babies lives.
The point is cece I am able to seperate MY beliefs from everyone elses.

*I* Believe that life begins at conception - A scientist would laugh at me if I said that to them. - scientists cant even agree when a fetus should be termed as life.
*I* Believe that life should be given a chance because I was big enough and ugly enough to get myself pregnant and I would have to deal with the consequences. Some don't agree with me there they think if they are not ready for a child then it is wrong to bring the child into the world.
*I* Believe in many things that others might not believe in. I have to accept the world doesn't all think the same way as me. Someone elses abortion cannot harm me. It is someone elses choice because I haven't walked a mile in their shoes I have no idea what it is they are facing. I don't know why they made that choice. But they made it for them and the baby.
I have no right to force my beliefs down someone elses throat.
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Cause I know my weakness, know my voice,
Now I believe in grace and choice,
And I know perhaps my heart is farce,
But Iíll be born without a mask
~ Babel, Mumford & Sons



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  #40  
February 20th, 2007, 07:20 PM
donomama
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Another example of an argument from someone who believes the fetus is a full life:

I believe the fetus is a fully fledged human. However, making abortion illegal would create a huge social crisis acorss the globe and even here in the USA. There would be too many children and not enough resources, not enough families for all those that needed one. I do not agree with this situation, and I cannot be prolife until conditions change to ensure that this problem of too many children without enough resources is solved, even though I believe the fetus is a life.[/b]

This argument makes zero sense to me. If people truly feel that way, then why shouldn't we just kill off all the children who have already been born into poverty and less than ideal circumstances.
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