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The evolution of your beliefs about abortion


Abortion Debate

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  #42  
February 20th, 2007, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
This argument makes zero sense to me. If people truly feel that way, then why shouldn't we just kill off all the children who have already been born into poverty and less than ideal circumstances.[/b]
It's basically saying that the arguier (is that a word?) accpets that there is a present problem (children without resources) and that making abortion illegal will turn that problem into a great social crisis. So, until the present problem is overcome, it should not be added to (by making abortion illegal).

Why not just kill off all the poor kids? Well, that's not what the argument is saying. The argument is grounded in a reality: abortion exists and so does this social problem of children without resources. The argument then decides there must be an order to the solving of these problems, with the latter problem (children without resources) being solved first. Thus, they cannot call for the banning of abortion until the latter problem is solved.

Another example of an argument like this would be to say that abortion can only become illegal in the USA once every woman has access to cheap birth control, good sex education, good health care, etc.


Another example of an argument like this:

I want smoking to be illegal. However, I see that hundred of thousands of americans are employed by the smoking business. We need to find an outlet for these employees and a way to deal with tabacco farmers before we go making smoking illegal.
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  #43  
February 20th, 2007, 07:30 PM
donomama
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Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
This argument makes zero sense to me. If people truly feel that way, then why shouldn't we just kill off all the children who have already been born into poverty and less than ideal circumstances.[/b]
It's basically saying that the arguier (is that a word?) accpets that there is a present problem (children without resources) and that making abortion illegal will turn that problem into a great social crisis. So, until the present problem is overcome, it should not be added to (by making abortion illegal).

Why not just kill off all the poor kids? Well, that's not what the argument is saying. The argument is grounded in a reality: abortion exists and so does this social problem of children without resources. The argument then decides there must be an order to the solving of these problems, with the latter problem (children without resources) being solved first. Thus, they cannot call for the banning of abortion until the latter problem is solved.

Another example of an argument like this would be to say that abortion can only become illegal in the USA once every woman has access to cheap birth control, good sex education, good health care, etc.


Another example of an argument like this:

I want smoking to be illegal. However, I see that hundred of thousands of americans are employed by the smoking business. We need to find an outlet for these employees and a way to deal with tabacco farmers before we go making smoking illegal.
[/b][/quote]

The difference between your smoking analogy and abortion is that smoking is most unhealthy for the person actually making the decision to smoke. Not so with abortion.
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  #44  
February 20th, 2007, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(chloe82 @ Feb 20 2007, 10:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>
Quote:
I'll post my smoker analogy here:

I do not agree with smoking and I do not wish that smoking numbers would rise in any way. However, I do not believe there should be laws telling people they cannot smoke in their own house. I do not agree with smoking in your house, but I believe the choice should remain.

Thus, someone who sees the fetus as a life may still believe the choice to do what one wishes with their own body should be there. Thus, the choice to abort should be there. However, this same person may work actively to stop abortion via other means than taking away the choice.

Hence, someone who believes the fetus to be a life may still agree with allowing the choice to abort.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
<div class='quotemain'> I'm sorry but I have a heck of a hard time understanding your responses. Since when are laws only valid if they affect YOU directly?[/b]
and to this...

that is exactly what the poster is saying. drunk driving may be a personal choice, but that choice affects other people in a dangerous way; hence, it is illegal.

Abortion does not affect her/others in any way (no legal persons are affected besides the mother, the one making the choice); hence, it is legal.
[/b]
I totally understand why abortion is illegal. I recognize that the government/law does not consider a fetus to be a legal person and thus it has not rights.....what I don't understand is how people who DO consider a fetus to be a person can ALSO profess to be PC. IF a fetus is indeed a person, should it not be protected just as much as every other person out there? I mean, we don't argue with murder being illegal, or rape, or child abuse, just becasue it's someone else's right to choose to do that even though we don't agree with it....no, we recognize that it is not an acceptable choice for anyone and recognize the need to protect others from others' harmful choices.
I "get" when people say a fetus is not yet a person...again, I don't agree according to my personal beliefs, but I can see how people can be PC with this stance. It makes sense.
I DON'T "get" how you can think a fetus is a person and then blow off abortion by saying it's someone else's choice. That's where it seems you could say the same thing about any other murder/abuse/whatever else law. KWIM? It's just not logical.
The only logical loophole I could see with that is if someone acknowledges that a fetus is a person but is PC only in the case where the mother will die if the baby is carried to term. Again, I don't agree with that but it makes sense in terms of being able to call it self-defense. But those cases are few and far between and I don't think that's what the poster was talking about. I guess I was responding to the poster who has stated that she believes unborn children are people, (either in this thread or a different one, I'm not exactly sure) but is still PC. I can't for the life of me make sense of that POV.
[/b][/quote]


Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
of course that would be my problem i could be hit by a drunk driver or be involved in a crash with a drunk driver.
I can in no way be harmed by someone elses abortion.[/b]
I'm sorry but I have a heck of a hard time understanding your responses. Since when are laws only valid if they affect YOU directly? If someone you don't know abuses their own child you can't say, Well, that should be legal then because it doesn't affect me, it's not my problem and even though I think it's wrong and I wouldn't do it myself, who am I to tell them not to?
Laws are there to protect people from having their rights infringed upon by other people, are they not? To me, having abortion be legal or not is the same kind of idea.

As I consider an unborn child a person, equal to any other person in the world, I am strongly pro-life and do wish abortion was illegal. I understand it's a complex issue and have become more aware of the many facets to the PC argument but still can't budge from the fact that IMO millions of people are being killed every year simply because they weren't wanted by someone else.

I have always been pro-life, mostly due to my Christian beliefs and specifically the belief that God created all life with a plan and a purpose, even if we can't see it right away, and it is a terrible thing for people to take it upon themselves to end any life for any reason. However, even when I step away from the spiritual side of it, I can't even stomach the thought of what abortion entails. I can say pretty much for sure that if I wasn't a Christian I would still be pro-life as I personally can't help but see an unborn baby as a person, a human being with their whole life ahead of them. Debating on here has only served to strengthen my opinion, although I do have more understanding of other people's reasonings than I used to. I guess where I stand on other people's POVs is....I can understand people's PC stance when they do not consider a fetus to be a person...however for those who do, I cannot begin to comprehend how they can say in the next breath, "but if other people want to do it that's their choice." That, to me, makes ZERO sense. You could say that about anything done to another person then, IMO.....well, if someone else wants to hurt their spouse or child or a random stranger, well, sure it sucks, but who am I to stop them from choosing to do so?
Again, the PC stance to me at least makes some sense when a fetus is not considered to be a person ..I don't agree, but I get it. People who say they are PC but they do think a fetus is a person, human, whatever....well then I am completely lost.
[/b]
A person being abusive to any other person is my problem because they could be abusive to me.
Murder affects me because I could be murdered or know someone that has been murdered (As I do)
Theft affects me because I could be stolen from (and have in my time)
Rape affects me because I could be raped.
Abortion doesn't affect me because it wouldn't be me having one (without the cirumcstances i have already pointed out)

The difference to me is this: A baby has had little affect on anyones life ony the mother can truely bond with that child and in some cases that doesn't really happen. Someone already born has had a chance to bond with more people helped to create a family unit and have spent time with them. (now i'm not saying therefore a 1 year olds life is worth less than an 80 year olds - I just think that more bonds can be formed outside of the womb.) A baby's arrival can rip families apart and abortion to those families IS an answer.
[/b]
Does something make it 'ok', acceptable, etc., just because it doesn't affect you personally? IMO, that's very egocentric and a bit selfish. I realize everyone deals/relates with this (egocentrism, after all, we are a very selfish species) in one form or another in certain situations/subjects, but to base something's 'wrongness' (especially in a situation where ending a life is involved), I dunno, I just think that is dangerously indifferent, and a bit hypocritical, especially if one agrees that the unborn is a life (more than just biologically speaking).

I agree with Chloe.
[/b][/quote]

Except I think forcing women to undergo an unwanted pregnancy is selfish cece so there we go.
I've already pointed out mothers life goes above babies lives.
The point is cece I am able to seperate MY beliefs from everyone elses.

*I* Believe that life begins at conception - A scientist would laugh at me if I said that to them. - scientists cant even agree when a fetus should be termed as life.
*I* Believe that life should be given a chance because I was big enough and ugly enough to get myself pregnant and I would have to deal with the consequences. Some don't agree with me there they think if they are not ready for a child then it is wrong to bring the child into the world.
*I* Believe in many things that others might not believe in. I have to accept the world doesn't all think the same way as me. Someone elses abortion cannot harm me. It is someone elses choice because I haven't walked a mile in their shoes I have no idea what it is they are facing. I don't know why they made that choice. But they made it for them and the baby.
I have no right to force my beliefs down someone elses throat.
[/b][/quote]
First:
No need to be snippy.

Second:
That really doesn't fly with me because you wouldn't say that about all the other laws involving ending a life, would you? Again, I think you are sacrificing your integrity a bit if you see abortion as an acceptable alternative, yet believe the child to be a worthy life.

Third:
Abortion harms me. It hurts me everytime I hear of someone getting an abortion. My heart hurts for both the mother and the baby. Just because it isn't MY child dying, doesn't me it doesn't affect me. (Substitute 'me' for 'anyone'; I am using 'me' as a general term).

Fourth:
Ok, so then by that logic, there shouldn't be laws, because, well, someone may think robbing someone is justified because they were falling on hard times, etc. After all, laws are based on someone's OPINION.
[/b][/quote]

You get to call me selfish but I can't point out where I feel your belifs are selfish?

I believe in Euthanasia (sp) and that would be a law allowing the end of a life. I also believe in the death penalty - a law ending a life.

True laws are based on someones opinion we are bought up on what we believe is right and wrong yet clearly around the world people think it is right to get on planes and fly them into buildings or get on trains and blow them up - so thats society really - a manmade thing. Which abortion is part of. Some think it is right some wrong it all depends on the establishment of clear lines with life etc - so many people belive so many different things that you can't have a law to please them all. This is not as clear cut as you'd like to think it is Cece.

Cece if the only way to feed your children was to steal a loaf of bread would you do it?
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Now I believe in grace and choice,
And I know perhaps my heart is farce,
But Iíll be born without a mask
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  #45  
February 20th, 2007, 07:34 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
<div class='quotemain'>
This argument makes zero sense to me. If people truly feel that way, then why shouldn't we just kill off all the children who have already been born into poverty and less than ideal circumstances.[/b]
It's basically saying that the arguier (is that a word?) accpets that there is a present problem (children without resources) and that making abortion illegal will turn that problem into a great social crisis. So, until the present problem is overcome, it should not be added to (by making abortion illegal).

Why not just kill off all the poor kids? Well, that's not what the argument is saying. The argument is grounded in a reality: abortion exists and so does this social problem of children without resources. The argument then decides there must be an order to the solving of these problems, with the latter problem (children without resources) being solved first. Thus, they cannot call for the banning of abortion until the latter problem is solved.

Another example of an argument like this would be to say that abortion can only become illegal in the USA once every woman has access to cheap birth control, good sex education, good health care, etc.


Another example of an argument like this:

I want smoking to be illegal. However, I see that hundred of thousands of americans are employed by the smoking business. We need to find an outlet for these employees and a way to deal with tabacco farmers before we go making smoking illegal.
[/b][/quote]

The difference between your smoking analogy and abortion is that smoking is most unhealthy for the person actually making the decision to smoke. Not so with abortion.
[/b][/quote]

The analogy still works. The point of comparison is this idea of "reality" and a need for order in solving problems.

This hypothetical person believes the fetus is a life. However, they feel there needs to be an order in which the social problems of both abortion and overpopulation of at risk children are solved.

Or, in the second exmaple, the hypothetical person sees the fetus as being human; however, they feel that abortion should only be made illegal once the factors causing many unwanted pregnancies are taken care of (ie, available BC, education, health care, etc).

With the smoking, they feel smoking is wrong. But they see the social problem that may be caused by outlawing it right away (collapse of economies in certain states, hundred of thousands without jobs, etc); so they say another solution is neded for these problems before the soking issue can be solved.

It's just another way of looking at what needs to be done.
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  #47  
February 21st, 2007, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(4tinybabyangels @ Feb 20 2007, 08:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(chloe82 @ Feb 20 2007, 10:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>
Quote:
I'll post my smoker analogy here:

I do not agree with smoking and I do not wish that smoking numbers would rise in any way. However, I do not believe there should be laws telling people they cannot smoke in their own house. I do not agree with smoking in your house, but I believe the choice should remain.

Thus, someone who sees the fetus as a life may still believe the choice to do what one wishes with their own body should be there. Thus, the choice to abort should be there. However, this same person may work actively to stop abortion via other means than taking away the choice.

Hence, someone who believes the fetus to be a life may still agree with allowing the choice to abort.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
<div class='quotemain'> I'm sorry but I have a heck of a hard time understanding your responses. Since when are laws only valid if they affect YOU directly?[/b]
and to this...

that is exactly what the poster is saying. drunk driving may be a personal choice, but that choice affects other people in a dangerous way; hence, it is illegal.

Abortion does not affect her/others in any way (no legal persons are affected besides the mother, the one making the choice); hence, it is legal.
[/b]
I totally understand why abortion is illegal. I recognize that the government/law does not consider a fetus to be a legal person and thus it has not rights.....what I don't understand is how people who DO consider a fetus to be a person can ALSO profess to be PC. IF a fetus is indeed a person, should it not be protected just as much as every other person out there? I mean, we don't argue with murder being illegal, or rape, or child abuse, just becasue it's someone else's right to choose to do that even though we don't agree with it....no, we recognize that it is not an acceptable choice for anyone and recognize the need to protect others from others' harmful choices.
I "get" when people say a fetus is not yet a person...again, I don't agree according to my personal beliefs, but I can see how people can be PC with this stance. It makes sense.
I DON'T "get" how you can think a fetus is a person and then blow off abortion by saying it's someone else's choice. That's where it seems you could say the same thing about any other murder/abuse/whatever else law. KWIM? It's just not logical.
The only logical loophole I could see with that is if someone acknowledges that a fetus is a person but is PC only in the case where the mother will die if the baby is carried to term. Again, I don't agree with that but it makes sense in terms of being able to call it self-defense. But those cases are few and far between and I don't think that's what the poster was talking about. I guess I was responding to the poster who has stated that she believes unborn children are people, (either in this thread or a different one, I'm not exactly sure) but is still PC. I can't for the life of me make sense of that POV.
[/b][/quote]


Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
of course that would be my problem i could be hit by a drunk driver or be involved in a crash with a drunk driver.
I can in no way be harmed by someone elses abortion.[/b]
I'm sorry but I have a heck of a hard time understanding your responses. Since when are laws only valid if they affect YOU directly? If someone you don't know abuses their own child you can't say, Well, that should be legal then because it doesn't affect me, it's not my problem and even though I think it's wrong and I wouldn't do it myself, who am I to tell them not to?
Laws are there to protect people from having their rights infringed upon by other people, are they not? To me, having abortion be legal or not is the same kind of idea.

As I consider an unborn child a person, equal to any other person in the world, I am strongly pro-life and do wish abortion was illegal. I understand it's a complex issue and have become more aware of the many facets to the PC argument but still can't budge from the fact that IMO millions of people are being killed every year simply because they weren't wanted by someone else.

I have always been pro-life, mostly due to my Christian beliefs and specifically the belief that God created all life with a plan and a purpose, even if we can't see it right away, and it is a terrible thing for people to take it upon themselves to end any life for any reason. However, even when I step away from the spiritual side of it, I can't even stomach the thought of what abortion entails. I can say pretty much for sure that if I wasn't a Christian I would still be pro-life as I personally can't help but see an unborn baby as a person, a human being with their whole life ahead of them. Debating on here has only served to strengthen my opinion, although I do have more understanding of other people's reasonings than I used to. I guess where I stand on other people's POVs is....I can understand people's PC stance when they do not consider a fetus to be a person...however for those who do, I cannot begin to comprehend how they can say in the next breath, "but if other people want to do it that's their choice." That, to me, makes ZERO sense. You could say that about anything done to another person then, IMO.....well, if someone else wants to hurt their spouse or child or a random stranger, well, sure it sucks, but who am I to stop them from choosing to do so?
Again, the PC stance to me at least makes some sense when a fetus is not considered to be a person ..I don't agree, but I get it. People who say they are PC but they do think a fetus is a person, human, whatever....well then I am completely lost.
[/b]
A person being abusive to any other person is my problem because they could be abusive to me.
Murder affects me because I could be murdered or know someone that has been murdered (As I do)
Theft affects me because I could be stolen from (and have in my time)
Rape affects me because I could be raped.
Abortion doesn't affect me because it wouldn't be me having one (without the cirumcstances i have already pointed out)

The difference to me is this: A baby has had little affect on anyones life ony the mother can truely bond with that child and in some cases that doesn't really happen. Someone already born has had a chance to bond with more people helped to create a family unit and have spent time with them. (now i'm not saying therefore a 1 year olds life is worth less than an 80 year olds - I just think that more bonds can be formed outside of the womb.) A baby's arrival can rip families apart and abortion to those families IS an answer.
[/b]
Does something make it 'ok', acceptable, etc., just because it doesn't affect you personally? IMO, that's very egocentric and a bit selfish. I realize everyone deals/relates with this (egocentrism, after all, we are a very selfish species) in one form or another in certain situations/subjects, but to base something's 'wrongness' (especially in a situation where ending a life is involved), I dunno, I just think that is dangerously indifferent, and a bit hypocritical, especially if one agrees that the unborn is a life (more than just biologically speaking).

I agree with Chloe.
[/b][/quote]

Except I think forcing women to undergo an unwanted pregnancy is selfish cece so there we go.
I've already pointed out mothers life goes above babies lives.
The point is cece I am able to seperate MY beliefs from everyone elses.

*I* Believe that life begins at conception - A scientist would laugh at me if I said that to them. - scientists cant even agree when a fetus should be termed as life.
*I* Believe that life should be given a chance because I was big enough and ugly enough to get myself pregnant and I would have to deal with the consequences. Some don't agree with me there they think if they are not ready for a child then it is wrong to bring the child into the world.
*I* Believe in many things that others might not believe in. I have to accept the world doesn't all think the same way as me. Someone elses abortion cannot harm me. It is someone elses choice because I haven't walked a mile in their shoes I have no idea what it is they are facing. I don't know why they made that choice. But they made it for them and the baby.
I have no right to force my beliefs down someone elses throat.
[/b][/quote]
First:
No need to be snippy.

Second:
That really doesn't fly with me because you wouldn't say that about all the other laws involving ending a life, would you? Again, I think you are sacrificing your integrity a bit if you see abortion as an acceptable alternative, yet believe the child to be a worthy life.

Third:
Abortion harms me. It hurts me everytime I hear of someone getting an abortion. My heart hurts for both the mother and the baby. Just because it isn't MY child dying, doesn't me it doesn't affect me. (Substitute 'me' for 'anyone'; I am using 'me' as a general term).

Fourth:
Ok, so then by that logic, there shouldn't be laws, because, well, someone may think robbing someone is justified because they were falling on hard times, etc. After all, laws are based on someone's OPINION.
[/b][/quote]

You get to call me selfish but I can't point out where I feel your belifs are selfish?

I believe in Euthanasia (sp) and that would be a law allowing the end of a life. I also believe in the death penalty - a law ending a life.

True laws are based on someones opinion we are bought up on what we believe is right and wrong yet clearly around the world people think it is right to get on planes and fly them into buildings or get on trains and blow them up - so thats society really - a manmade thing. Which abortion is part of. Some think it is right some wrong it all depends on the establishment of clear lines with life etc - so many people belive so many different things that you can't have a law to please them all. This is not as clear cut as you'd like to think it is Cece.

Cece if the only way to feed your children was to steal a loaf of bread would you do it?
[/b][/quote]
To the bolded: Um no Ellie, I have already stated many times before that I can see where you would say that it is selfish. I am sorry for the confusion, I was specifically pointing out to the "so there we go" attitude about it. Not about 'being selfish', but the tone associated with "so there we go". I find that specific statement to be snippy. Not the 'selfish' part.

My point was that all laws are created from someone's opinion. This would be true with abortion, capital punishment, murder, etc. etc. etc. etc. So to state that outlawing abortion would be wrong FOR THE SIMPLE FACT that it is someone's opinion, really isn't relevent, since you believe in laws, and laws are formed from OPINIONS. That was my point.

If the only way (hypothetically) to feed my children was to steal a loaf of bread (or whatever food item), yes, I would. But I would also be aware of the consequences of my actions, even if I do not agree with them.
[/b][/quote]

So hypothetically you have no other way to feed your kids and you have to steal food to keep them fed.
I would go so far as to say that although you would be aware of your actions you wouldnt feel guilty?
To me that isn't wrong. It definatly not wrong and if you were caught and I was on the jury I'd vote innocent. People do desperate things in desperate times (the point in the diversion). If you can't stop abortion then you may as well control it.
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Now I believe in grace and choice,
And I know perhaps my heart is farce,
But Iíll be born without a mask
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  #49  
February 21st, 2007, 07:11 AM
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4tinybabyangels- I just wanted to note that by saying she won't sacrifice her integrity, i don't think cece is saying you are sacrificing your integrity. Your inegrity lies in a different place becuase you have different values, different priorities, different beliefs, etc.

So, she is prolife with great value on the child. For HER, putting something ahead of her value on the child would be sacrificing her integrity.

For me, I put great value on the mother and less on the fetus, for ME, putting something ahead of the pregnant mother for sake of the fetus would be sacrificing my integrity.
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  #50  
February 21st, 2007, 07:17 AM
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ITA with Sara.
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  #51  
February 21st, 2007, 07:51 AM
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Cece has already said to me she thinks I am sacarficing my integrity
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Now I believe in grace and choice,
And I know perhaps my heart is farce,
But Iíll be born without a mask
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  #52  
February 21st, 2007, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Cece has already said to me she thinks I am sacarficing my integrity [/b]
ops I missed that (it's hard following all the long quotes! LOL, I'm kinda lost)

But, in light of that, I would reread my post as saying "no one should judge other's integrity based on their own unless they know that their values, etc match"
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  #53  
February 21st, 2007, 07:56 AM
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ITA with that.
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Now I believe in grace and choice,
And I know perhaps my heart is farce,
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  #55  
February 21st, 2007, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
4tinybabyangels- I just wanted to note that by saying she won't sacrifice her integrity, i don't think cece is saying you are sacrificing your integrity. Your inegrity lies in a different place becuase you have different values, different priorities, different beliefs, etc.

So, she is prolife with great value on the child. For HER, putting something ahead of her value on the child would be sacrificing her integrity.

For me, I put great value on the mother and less on the fetus, for ME, putting something ahead of the pregnant mother for sake of the fetus would be sacrificing my integrity.[/b]
Ok Ellie, I SAID THAT WHEN I THOUGHT that you saw the fetus as A FULLY FLEDGED HUMAN BEING, EQUAL to that of the mother. Since then you have said that you don't think that way, so obviously that comment doesn't apply to you.

I THOUGHT you shared the same beliefs as I do, from other posts I have seen you make. My mistake, but I wanted to clarify that IF I KNEW (and if you were clear and not jumping from one thing to the next), then I WOULD NEVER HAVE SAID THAT YOU PERSONALLY were sacrificing your integrity. Because, obviously your morals, values, etc. are different than mine (and I am NOT saying you don't have any, so don't go there).

I am starting to get really irritated here.

Sara, ITA on both posts. When the comment was said about sacrificing her integrity, it was based on the fact that I believed (based on her other posts that I have read, including in here) that she held the same beliefs as me (i.e. the baby is a fully fledged human being of EQUAL worth to any other human life). Since I made that comment, she clarified that she did not think this, so obviously that comment does not apply (the comment about her sacrificing her integrity).
[/b]
I DO for ME personally. But not for anyone ese because I am not in their heads - I therefore said what i did because i didn't know how else to communicate to you that although I believe that babies are fully fledged human lives etc etc it doesn't mean everyone else does. Thats the whole point in Pro-choice. That I can CHOOSE to believe what I do but someone else can CHOOSE to believe differently hense why abortion shouldn't be illegalised. So because I feel i've typed this clearly - This s why I believe I am nto sacraficing my integrity because for me its about the CHOICE and not the belief... is that clearer (not being patronising asking)
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  #56  
February 22nd, 2007, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
I DO for ME personally. But not for anyone ese because I am not in their heads - I therefore said what i did because i didn't know how else to communicate to you that although I believe that babies are fully fledged human lives etc etc it doesn't mean everyone else does. Thats the whole point in Pro-choice. That I can CHOOSE to believe what I do but someone else can CHOOSE to believe differently hense why abortion shouldn't be illegalised. So because I feel i've typed this clearly - This s why I believe I am nto sacraficing my integrity because for me its about the CHOICE and not the belief... is that clearer (not being patronising asking)[/b]
Exactly. I am in the "it's a baby from conception" camp. However I am NOT sacrificing my integrity by being pro-choice. Because *I* believe that to be a baby...and would likely not have an abortion myself (except under dire circumstances)...I would not and could not take that choice from another pregnant woman. That's the point of CHOICE. Someone has the choice to carry a pregnancy to term...or not. THEY have to live with their decision. I do not. THAT's how I'm not "affected" by another's abortion. Does it hurt to hear about? Sure...mostly because I can't not picture my own son when thinking about it. But again, not everyone has the same beliefs that I do. Not everyone sees that as a "full fledged" person yet. Just because I do...doesnt' mean that MY beliefs are the ones that EVERYONE else should be forced to follow. Choice.
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  #57  
February 22nd, 2007, 10:38 AM
kadydid
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I also believe there is life there at conception. I canít imagine how it would grow, without life. Is that life the same as you and I or even a fetus? I don't think so.

At conception does that life have the same value as an already born person, or an almost born person? I think in a pregnancy it definitely gains value as it grows. Many of us have lost pregnancies and it was horrible and it was sad. As bad as we felt it would not be the same as if one of our born children died. Itís not exactly the same.

So where do we draw the line? If we are going take away a womanís right to choose abortion especially in the first trimester, then technically we should be taking away their right to choose most forms of birth control too. If this life is the same as an actual child (which I do not believe) then women who take birth control should probably be charged with manslaughter and birth control alone is probably responsible for the largest genocide in human history. Are we really going to go there? If at conception that life is equal to an already born person (or even an almost born person) taking birth control is essence leaving your child in the middle of the street just waiting to see if it will get hit by a car or not.
Do most people believe that way? No, not even most pro-lifers feel this way. What about IVF clinics, should those little embryos have round the clock child care at the clinic? I mean if it is the same as an actual child, well they should be jailed for child neglect and child endangerment.
And while I am on the subject of IVF can we completely freeze our already born children, and have them be okay?

I personally stopped taking BC when I found out how it prevents a pregnancy. BUT I would never want the world to stop taking birth control. We would have such a poverty crisis if there was very few BCís. (not everyone can use condoms or a variety of other forms of BC) It would be a nightmare. Especially when you look at other countries. I think early abortion is better than children starving and dying.

We as women need to take responsibility for ourselves.

I am pro choice. I was anti choice. In my case when I was anti-choice I stuck my head in the sand about the world around me, and never tried to look at both sides. That was my experience and it does not mean I think all pro-lifers stick their head in the sand. But I think there are some who do. (But I think some pro-choicers do too)
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  #58  
February 25th, 2007, 06:35 PM
mrobinson
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Tell us about how your current beliefs concerning the issue of abortion evolved. (debate of these is ok, I meant for this to be a "this is how I got there" thread but also a debate)[/b]
We were taking sex ed in school. Our homework was to ask our parents if we were pregnant (or had a girlfriend who was pregnant) what they think. My dad was very clear: adult acts required adult choices. He would kick me out.

That was very scary to me. My friend got pregnant and kept her baby. She was anti-abortion. We had an arguement about it because I told her not all people have parents like her's where they would just help them out. I know we lost our friendship that day.

The more and more people I met, befriended, I knew that many women have so many limited choices that abortion had to be an option for some. I came from a small town where drugs, suicide, self-harm, domestic violence and other things were apart of our day to day lives.

The older I get, the more things don't change enough. I hope one day society changes their social judgements about women so we can have better choices for everyone.
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  #60  
February 26th, 2007, 04:13 PM
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Honestly, I can't think of a "term" that I am, maybe you can tell me. I do think it is every woman's choice to have an abortion or not, does that make me pro-choice, I don't think so, keep reading....It is also everyone's choice to kill another living human being, I didn't say it was a good choice, but it does happen and it is a CHOICE, we all have to make choices daily, but it does not mean that I have to agree with the choices others make. I became pregnant by rape when I was 13, I didn't know ANYHTING about adoption, abortion, pregnancy, NONE OF IT! I did, however, decide to keep my baby...shortly after I made that decision, I miscarried. I never had to deal with the mental pain of abortion, adoption, or looking at that baby and seeing my rapists everyday, so, in my eyes, miscarriage was the best thing for me at that time. At the age of 15, I "fell in love" with my high-school sweetheart and became pregnant with his child. He wanted nothing to do with being a father and told me to get an abortion, I made the appointment, the day came and he picked me up, I refused to go, I could NOT murder my child. I had my son when I was 16, finished high-school and went on to college. BTW, I met my ex-husband in my senior year of high-school and became pregnant with his child, so I graduated high-school with a 2 year old and being pregnant. My ex turned out to be an abusive alcoholic, and I am VERY glad to be rid of him. I have since found my soul mate and we have a daughter together and another due in July. I miscarried 3 times TTCing this baby and it was the hardest time of my life. I could NEVER do that willingly, and I don't see how others can either. So, again, I am not sure what my "label" is, but I think that abortion is a choice that people make, the same as what color make-up to wear and whether they will beat their spouse. I don't have to agree with their choices, but it is a choice non-the-less.
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