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Is there any point debating abortion?


Abortion Debate

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  #1  
February 20th, 2007, 09:22 PM
donomama
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I just read this quote from cece in another thread. (I hope you don't mind me quoting you, my dear):

Quote:
Maybe we should just agree to disagree here on the abortion debates, because my opinion will never change. Ever. As I am sure your's won't either. So, I think this would be a good time to agree to disagree.[/b]
This is exactly how I feel. And I'm sure it is exactly how most people feel about abortion. I have only recently begun coming onto the abortion debates. I used to steer completely clear of them, partially because of this reason. On other issues, I love hearing all your points of view, and I love voicing mine. Sometimes, I change my opinion because of something I read on a debate, and (maybe) once or twice someone has changed because of something I wrote? (maybe not ) But I don't see this happening on abortion. I think people who view a fetus as a baby will always view it as life. Those who think that it is the woman's body and abortion only affects her will probably never change that view. So why do we go 'round and 'round?
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  #2  
February 20th, 2007, 09:31 PM
kadydid
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BECAUSE we like to punish ourselves.

Actually I go back and fourth on the abortion debate. I have seen people change their minds in abortion debates. But I have also watched the same people argue the same points over and over for years (on another board) and it gets beyond stupid. Maybe lurkers get benefit from the debates? I don't know.

I come on this board a few times a day and check and I am not kidding I think I lose a few brain cells every time I do because I just end up thinking about abortion throughout the day. (fun thought ) and for every argument there is a counter argument. I would seriously be sitting here all day (butt getting bigger and bigger) if I typed out all the thoughts I actually have on this subject. (as I am sure most of us could)

I really think people just like to argue.
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  #3  
February 20th, 2007, 09:59 PM
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I don't write very often anymore because it's hard for me to explain myself. I read it all the time though because others point of views intrigue me.
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  #5  
February 20th, 2007, 10:24 PM
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I think my mind's changed - not soley from the abortion debates here, but partly. I used to be pro-life when I started debating here, and I guess I've come around to pro-choice. My view that it's still a child from the moment of conception hasn't changed, but my opinions on everything else have
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  #6  
February 20th, 2007, 10:38 PM
chlodoll
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I have seen a few womens opinions change from the boards here.
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  #7  
February 21st, 2007, 06:54 AM
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But it is pretty pointless if we all spent half as much energy as we all do arguing here in actually fighting for what we believe then things might change.
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  #8  
February 21st, 2007, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
But it is pretty pointless if we all spent half as much energy as we all do arguing here in actually fighting for what we believe then things might change.[/b]

I think a lot of people do. Yesterday I helped author two petitions against Senator McCain for president because he said he wanted R v W overturned. One is an internet version, which we know doesn't get as much weight but the other is going to go door to door; hopefully we can spread the word on his presidential campaign, that he will attack choice if elected.

I think the neat thing about the effort is that it is both republicans and democrats. While we each may want a different candidate (most of them are for Guiliani, but he's prochoice, too), we are united against attacks on R vW, this united us against Mccain.

I know Cece does a lot of work in the prolife area, and I assume alot of other women do, too.

But I think debating really helps sharpen the skills for public discourse. And it let's you learna lot more about the other side.
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  #9  
February 22nd, 2007, 09:57 AM
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I think debating helps us open our minds to other points of view. Will I become pro-life because of the debates? No. will someone else become pro-choice? Perhaps...perhaps not. BUT, maybe we'll all start to have a much better understanding on WHY people feel the way they do. Empathy can go a LONG way.
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  #10  
April 21st, 2007, 05:21 PM
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Hi, I am Julie, I am pregnant with our first and was intrigued by this forum…

As for people's opinions changing, I think all of us change our opinions on things as we grow, mature, gain new information... So, I don't think it is a "hopeless debate." Abortion is what it is and sadly, it has been around for a long time, and will be around in the future.

I think the terms itself "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are interesting.... because usually when there are opposing viewpoints, the "sides" are represented by opposites: "for the war" "against the war" or for "border control" or "for illegal immigration"....

However, in the abortion arena, the opposing viewpoint to "pro life" would be "pro death" ... no way around it.. Pro life people are also pro choice, their choice is to let the baby live. I think the term itself is a trap for those who support abortion...

I was interested in the abortion debate before I was pregnant, and once I became pregnant (this past December) it totally changed for me... To see that little beating heart of my baby revolutionalized my thinking... I mean, I have always been pro life, but this pushed me over the edge!

In America, we live in a society of instant gratification. I was my Starbucks now, my microwave popcorn in 2 minutes, my positive pregnancy test immediately, etc..... However, this is a very selfish and man-centered reality. I think this attitude of instant gratification leads people to think that they are entitled to everything they want, when they want it. However, is this the way it should be? Are these the pitiful goals for our lives, to get everything for myself?

We need to go against the grain of society and recognize that life is a gift, a blessed gift, and something that we are responsible for. In the area of abortion, even if you are raped or conceived via a bad situation, you have a responsibility, will you be sucked into the thinking of instant gratification and that you are the god of your own world? OR will you self-lessly give another person the chance to live. You can give the baby up for adoption and bless another couple with the baby that you thought of removing from the world, simply because it was an inconvenience to you.

I just really see this pervasive attitude in our culture and it is sending red flags in my mind in all aspects of cultural acceptance. People need to carefully chose their words and critically think about the implications of their worldview…
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  #11  
April 21st, 2007, 09:46 PM
mrobinson
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Julie

Quote:
We need to go against the grain of society and recognize that life is a gift, a blessed gift, and something that we are responsible for. In the area of abortion, even if you are raped or conceived via a bad situation, you have a responsibility, will you be sucked into the thinking of instant gratification and that you are the god of your own world? OR will you self-lessly give another person the chance to live. You can give the baby up for adoption and bless another couple with the baby that you thought of removing from the world, simply because it was an inconvenience to you.[/b]
I think to simplify abortion as something selfish and pigeon-hole it as an inconvenience is not seeing abortion for what it is. Abortion is a larger issue. There are more women who would rather keep the baby than not but don't have the resources to do so for many reasons out of their control. It's not about instant gratification or playing God. Have you seen how many American's are waiting for couples to adopt them? Of course they vary in age and race but at the end of the day, there are not enough people adopting the current kids, let alone more brought in by non-aborting women. And that's not the world picture, but just one country. Until people see start to really analyze the truth of abortion, will there begin to be change. Finger pointing women to be selfish, irresponsble and God players will not help anyone begin to go down the road of change.

I am glad you're here on the abortion debates though. I hope there will someone here that can help you see through their eyes some of the real issues that cause women to seek and have abortions.
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  #12  
April 21st, 2007, 10:22 PM
mommyKathyX3
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Honestly, my opinion will never change, but I like to see WHY the other side sees things the way they do cause it helps me to understand why I feel the way I do, if that makes sense. You should never believe something without knowing why other people believe the other side of the coin.
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  #13  
April 22nd, 2007, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
I think to simplify abortion as something selfish and pigeon-hole it as an inconvenience is not seeing abortion for what it is. Abortion is a larger issue. There are more women who would rather keep the baby than not but don't have the resources to do so for many reasons out of their control. It's not about instant gratification or playing God. Have you seen how many American's are waiting for couples to adopt them? Of course they vary in age and race but at the end of the day, there are not enough people adopting the current kids, let alone more brought in by non-aborting women. And that's not the world picture, but just one country. Until people see start to really analyze the truth of abortion, will there begin to be change. Finger pointing women to be selfish, irresponsble and God players will not help anyone begin to go down the road of change.

I am glad you're here on the abortion debates though. I hope there will someone here that can help you see through their eyes some of the real issues that cause women to seek and have abortions.[/b]
To the bolded: Most of those kids waiting around to be adopted are actually older children. Babies typically have pretty long waiting lists, so i don't think that argument really applies here. It's still sad that these older children are being forgotten, don't get me wrong... it's just not really a valid argument against ABORTION, since that deals with little babies.
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  #14  
April 22nd, 2007, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Quote:

I think to simplify abortion as something selfish and pigeon-hole it as an inconvenience is not seeing abortion for what it is. Abortion is a larger issue. There are more women who would rather keep the baby than not but don't have the resources to do so for many reasons out of their control. It's not about instant gratification or playing God. Have you seen how many American's are waiting for couples to adopt them? Of course they vary in age and race but at the end of the day, there are not enough people adopting the current kids, let alone more brought in by non-aborting women. And that's not the world picture, but just one country. Until people see start to really analyze the truth of abortion, will there begin to be change. Finger pointing women to be selfish, irresponsble and God players will not help anyone begin to go down the road of change.

I am glad you're here on the abortion debates though. I hope there will someone here that can help you see through their eyes some of the real issues that cause women to seek and have abortions.[/b]
To the bolded: Most of those kids waiting around to be adopted are actually older children. Babies typically have pretty long waiting lists, so i don't think that argument really applies here. It's still sad that these older children are being forgotten, don't get me wrong... it's just not really a valid argument against ABORTION, since that deals with little babies.
[/b]
There is a waiting list and a hefty price tag for male caucasion infants with no known health problems. My sister has a friend who is a foster parent, she has had 3 infants in the last 3 years, all born to a crack addicted mother, and has since adopted all three, as there was no one else wanting these babies. Just a few months ago, she was given this same woman's 4th child, and CS is requesting that she adopt this one as well so that the siblings can stay together and there is no demand for this child otherwise.

Quote:
Children In, Entering, and Exiting Care
Point in Time. As of September 30, 2003, there were an estimated 523,000 children in foster care.

Entries. During FY 2003, 297,000 children entered foster care.

Exits. During FY 2003, 281,000 children exited foster care.

Trends. Between FY 1998 and FY 2003, the number of children in care as of September 30 dropped slightly, while entries into and exits from foster care during those years increased slightly.

View Chart

Placement Types
Point in Time. Of the estimated 523,000 children in foster care as of September 30, 2003, 46 percent were in nonrelative foster family homes, 23 percent were in relative foster homes, 19 percent were in group homes or institutions, 5 percent were in pre-adoptive homes, and 7 percent were in other placement types.

Trends. Placement type as of September 30 remained relatively unchanged between FY 1998 and FY 2003. Placement in relative foster homes showed the largest change, dropping 6 percentage points.

View Chart

Permanency Goals
Point in Time. Of the estimated 523,000 children in foster care as of September 30, 2003, 48 percent had a goal of reunification with parent(s) or principal caregiver(s), 20 percent had a goal of adoption, 8 percent had a goal of living with a relative or guardian, 8 percent had a goal of long-term foster care, 6 percent had a goal of emancipation,3 and 10 percent had not yet had a permanency goal established.

Trends. The most dramatic change between FY 1998 and FY 2003 occurred in the proportion of children in the "No Goal Established" category, which posted a decrease of 13 percentage points. Also of note was an 8 percent increase in children with a goal of reunification.

View Chart

Outcomes
Exits. Of the estimated 281,000 children who exited foster care during FY 2003, 55 percent were reunified with parent(s) or primary caretaker(s), 18 percent were adopted, 15 percent went to live with a relative or guardian, 8 percent were emancipated, and 4 percent had other outcomes.4

Trends. The percentage of children adopted increased by 4 percent, while the percentage of children reunified with family decreased by 7 percent between FY 1998 and FY 2003. Overall, the percentage of children exiting foster care to a permanent family (i.e., reunification, adoption, or living with relative/guardian) remained about the same between the two periods.

View Chart

Length of Stay
Exits. Of the estimated 281,000 children who exited foster care during FY 2003, 18 percent had been in care less than 1 month, 32 percent had been in care for 1 to 11 months, 20 percent had been in care for 12 to 23 months, 11 percent had been in care for 24 to 35 months, 10 percent had been in care for 36 to 59 months, and 9 percent had been in care for 5 or more years.

Trends. The time children spent in foster care changed little between FY 1998 and FY 2003. The median length of stay was 11 months in FY 1998 and 11.9 months in FY 2002.

View Chart

(Back to Top)



Descriptive Information

Age
Point in Time. The median5 age of the children in foster care on September 30, 2003, was 10.9 years.

Entries. The median age of children entering foster care during FY 2003 was 8.3 years.

Exits. The median age of children exiting foster care during FY 2003 was 10.0 years.

Trends. The age at entry and exit stayed relatively stable between FY 1998 and FY 2003, while the median age of all children in care at a given point in time increased by 1.4 years.

View Chart

Race/Ethnicity
Point in Time. Of the estimated 523,000 children in foster care as of September 30, 2003, 39 percent were White/Non-Hispanic, 35 percent were Black/Non-Hispanic, 17 percent were Hispanic, and 9 percent were other races/ethnic origins.6

Trends. The percentage of Black/Non-Hispanic children in care as of September 30 dropped 9 percentage points (from 44 to 35 percent) between FY 1998 and FY 2003, while percentages for all other race/ethnicity categories increased slightly.

View Chart

Entries. Of the estimated 297,000 children who entered foster care during FY 2003, 46 percent were White/Non-Hispanic, 27 percent were Black/Non-Hispanic, 17 percent were Hispanic, and 9 percent were other races/ethnic origins.

Trends. The racial composition of children entering foster care stayed relatively stable between FY 1998 and FY 2003.

View Chart

Exits. Of the estimated 281,000 children who exited foster care during FY 2003, 46 percent were White/Non-Hispanic, 29 percent were Black/Non-Hispanic, 16 percent were Hispanic, and 9 percent were other races/ethnic origins.

Trends. The racial composition of children exiting foster care stayed relatively stable between FY 1998 and FY 2003.

View Chart

Gender
Point in Time. Of the estimated 523,000 children in foster care as of September 30, 2003, 53 percent were male and 48 percent were female.

Trends. Gender demographics were basically unchanged between FY 1998 and FY 2003.[/b]
http://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/factsheets/foster.cfm
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  #15  
April 22nd, 2007, 11:56 AM
Caeden'sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Entries. The median age of children entering foster care during FY 2003 was 8.3 years.[/b]
Kinda just proves my point, right?

Nothing you quoted talked about babies at all... All you have is your personal story. Which sucks, but maybe it's just one area? I honestly don't know... Hmmm.
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  #16  
April 23rd, 2007, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Quote:

Entries. The median age of children entering foster care during FY 2003 was 8.3 years.[/b]
Kinda just proves my point, right?

Nothing you quoted talked about babies at all... All you have is your personal story. Which sucks, but maybe it's just one area? I honestly don't know... Hmmm.
[/b]
My family has taken in and adopted many foster children and has said the same...

In any case, I read these debates with an open mind. I came here very pro-life, then became very pro-choice, but since going throught the experience of pregnancy and birth am leaning more pro-life again. I don't think that my core beliefs of when life begins and the morality of abortion will change, but the political and social aspects are what forever cause me to shift my views. This is the grey area that always leaves me scratching my head and ultimately drawing me back in...
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  #17  
April 23rd, 2007, 11:44 AM
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If there were no more abortions, it would take probably less than a decade for ALL the couples who are currently waiting for a baby, to get one.

But then what? After that there would just be a surplus of babies, and no more homes.
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  #18  
April 25th, 2007, 03:20 PM
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I like to read everyone POV but, I think most have their minds made up....your either for or against it. So yes its just arguing back and forth.
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  #19  
April 26th, 2007, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Quote:

I think to simplify abortion as something selfish and pigeon-hole it as an inconvenience is not seeing abortion for what it is. Abortion is a larger issue. There are more women who would rather keep the baby than not but don't have the resources to do so for many reasons out of their control. It's not about instant gratification or playing God. Have you seen how many American's are waiting for couples to adopt them? Of course they vary in age and race but at the end of the day, there are not enough people adopting the current kids, let alone more brought in by non-aborting women. And that's not the world picture, but just one country. Until people see start to really analyze the truth of abortion, will there begin to be change. Finger pointing women to be selfish, irresponsble and God players will not help anyone begin to go down the road of change.

I am glad you're here on the abortion debates though. I hope there will someone here that can help you see through their eyes some of the real issues that cause women to seek and have abortions.[/b]
To the bolded: Most of those kids waiting around to be adopted are actually older children. Babies typically have pretty long waiting lists, so i don't think that argument really applies here. It's still sad that these older children are being forgotten, don't get me wrong... it's just not really a valid argument against ABORTION, since that deals with little babies.
[/b]
To the bolded: Yes, you are correct about that. However, if we know that MANY children are waiting around to be adopted, why is it a good idea to outlaw abortion and add more burden to that system? What happens to all those unwanted older children? As SCGirl pointed out, it would take very little time for all the babies to recieve homes, but what happens then? Who is going to adopt the rest of the babies, to the tune of 3 million per year, after abortion is outlawed?

To the OP: I do think there is a point to debating abortion. I was once very VERY pro-life and active in the RTL community, and I attended the march in 2002. It took me talking to a lot of other women and experiencing an unwanted pregnancy for my opinion to take a turn. There's always a point to the debate, even if some minds don't change, because the heart of the issue affects all of us.
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  #20  
April 27th, 2007, 02:10 PM
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People debate abortion because the "pro-life" side wants the government to tell everyone what they can and can't do with their own bodies.
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