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Do you vaccinate your children?


Abortion Debate

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  #1  
March 4th, 2007, 11:49 AM
Willowkarr's Avatar Coupon Blogger
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I have stoped vaccinating my children (this is not a debate about whether you think I am a good mother or not for not vaccinating) because after doing my research, I learnt that in MANY of the vaccinations, there are "aborted fetal tissue". I am 100% against abortion. This was not my ONLY reason for not vaccinating, but again, this isn't about me, this is about you....

Do/Would you vaccinate your child if you are pro-life? And if your answer is yes, have you researched the ingredients and STILL agree to support abortion by vaccinating?
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  #2  
March 4th, 2007, 11:59 AM
chloe82
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I DO vaccinate my kids, and am 100% prolife. I didn't hear about this issue till just a little while ago, and would like to do more research before I make a decision. I feel pretty strongly about both issues, so I'd have to put a lot of thought into it and would be curious what my dh thinks too.
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  #3  
March 4th, 2007, 03:06 PM
mrobinson
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I don't want people to think all present day vaxs are made from abortions.. It's misleading.

Quote:
CDC is aware that some, but not all, vaccines are made from human cell-line cultures, and some of these cell lines originated from aborted fetal tissue, obtained from legal abortions in the 1960's. No new fetal tissue is needed to produce cell lines to make these vaccines, now or in the future. Fetal tissue is not used to produce vaccines; cell lines generated from a single fetal tissue source are used--vaccine manufacturers obtain human cell lines from FDA-certified cell banks.[/b]
source
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  #4  
March 4th, 2007, 03:10 PM
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We have cut back majorly on vaccines in this house for many reasons, but we still selectively vax. I make my best efforts to stay away from vaccines that were created via the genital cutting industry (I also stay away from the facial creams made with foreskin, etc).

Fetal Tissue is not flesh forcibly taken from another individual, as I do not see the fetus as a full human. Thus, while I have many qualms against certain vaccines (whether it is reaction, history of the vaccine, or foreskins being somewhere in the process), fetal tissue is not one of them for me.
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  #5  
March 4th, 2007, 11:00 PM
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I'm very pro-life, and still vaccinate. As was already pointed out, these cells are from a LONG time ago, and well... what's done is done. Does that mean i'm not going to protect my child because of it? Of course not. No ongoing damage is being done by me using those vaccines. Better that those cells do some good, right?
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  #6  
March 5th, 2007, 05:19 AM
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i'm pro choice, but i am still of the opinion that just because someone chose to abort their child doesnt mean that mine cant benefit from it. either way that life was terminated, theres nothing anyone can do about it.
I know it sounds so heartless and probably very ignorant of me, but not vaccinating your children isnt gonna stop women who have an unplanned and mostly unwanted pregnancy from terminating it. I dont see it as supporting abortion.
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  #7  
March 5th, 2007, 05:56 AM
mommyKathyX3
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Quote:
I'm very pro-life, and still vaccinate. As was already pointed out, these cells are from a LONG time ago, and well... what's done is done. Does that mean i'm not going to protect my child because of it? Of course not. No ongoing damage is being done by me using those vaccines. Better that those cells do some good, right?[/b]
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  #8  
March 5th, 2007, 04:41 PM
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Looking through the ingredient lists, aborted fetal cells is the least of my concerns. Our decision, was basied on other ingredients, and the vaccines scedual that is reccomended.
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  #9  
March 5th, 2007, 05:54 PM
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I hope people wouldn't think that if I vaccinate my child that I am supporting abortion I will follow the recommended vaccination schedule so my child will be updated before she goes to school.
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  #11  
March 5th, 2007, 08:53 PM
beck12's Avatar Platinum Supermommy
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We debated something similar a while back....link


and my reply is still the same:

Quote:
Just so that we are all clear here - the abortions took place in 1962 (WI-38) 1964 (RA-273) 1966 (MRC-5) 1985 (PERC-6).

I don't personally find this to be a problem for one reason - nothing can be done to undo what happened then & there is absolutely no evidence that in the past or future that vaccines promote or contribute to abortion.

If I were to believe vaccines were wrong on this basis (and I won't actually comment or get into the issues I do have with vaccines) - then I would have to say other things are wrong as well - that obviously we all don't have a problem with..such as:

Let's say I have a sick husband in need of a heart transplant. Let's say somewhere a main is beaten to death. Let's say their heart is a match for my child - do I say "No - I won't take that heart & help my Dh because another man died unjustly to provide that heart" ?

It is the same to me in this case...the case studies of those abortions clearly indicate that the decision to abort in those cases had nothing to do with furthering the science of vaccination, nor were the women paid for that & would have taken place regardless of whether the remains were then disposed of or used to develop life-saving vaccinations. If I believed for even a moment that abortions were being performed now for the express purpose of providing tissue to be used in this way, I would be the first person on a soap-box - but clearly that is not what is happening & I can't undo what happened 44yrs ago, 42 yrs ago, 40 yrs ago & 21 yrs ago by refusing that treatment today.

I totally respect if others feel they cannot get past that where the vaccine originates. That is their right. I think I expressed why it isn't a moral/ethical dilemma to me already.[/b]
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  #12  
March 6th, 2007, 04:40 PM
Willowkarr's Avatar Coupon Blogger
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Quote:
Looking through the ingredient lists, aborted fetal cells is the least of my concerns. Our decision, was basied on other ingredients, and the vaccines scedual that is reccomended.[/b]
Same here, but it is the only way I could give my children a "religious exemption" IF they were to ask why my religion doesn't allow vaccinations, I plan to state my case on abortion, the sad thing is that most of the people in the school systems don't even know ANY of the ingredients.
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  #13  
March 7th, 2007, 08:26 AM
mrobinson
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Quote:
I'm very pro-life, and still vaccinate. As was already pointed out, these cells are from a LONG time ago, and well... what's done is done. Does that mean i'm not going to protect my child because of it? Of course not. No ongoing damage is being done by me using those vaccines. Better that those cells do some good, right?[/b]
Exactly. Take the rubella vax as an example. If you don't take it, get pregnant and your little one, or friend of the little one brings home the German Measles, you could lose that healthy baby you're carrying. I wouldn't want to be the reason my friend's mom had a baby with these issues or myself.

Check if you are immune to Rubella (German measles) as Rubella puts babies at risk of blindness, deafness and mental retardation. Women who are susceptible to rubella should be offered rubella vaccination before they become pregnant. source
What are the complications of rubella?
Birth defects if acquired by a pregnant woman: deafness, cataracts, heart defects, mental retardation, and liver and spleen damage (at least a 20% chance of damage to the fetus if a woman is infected early in pregnancy)
source


Ingredients:

Quote:
BIAVAX® II (Rubella and Mumps Virus Vaccine Live) is a live virus vaccine for immunization against rubella (German measles) and mumps.

BIAVAX II is a sterile lyophilized preparation of the Wistar RA 27/3 strain of live attenuated rubella virus grown in human diploid cell (WI-38) culture; and the Jeryl Lynn (B level) strain of mumps virus grown in cell cultures of chick embryo. The vaccine viruses are the same as those used in the manufacture of MERUVAX* II (Rubella Virus Vaccine Live) and MUMPSVAX* (Mumps Virus Vaccine Live). The two viruses are mixed before being lyophilized.

The reconstituted vaccine is for subcutaneous administration. When reconstituted as directed, the dose for injection is 0.5 mL and contains not less than the equivalent of 1,000 TCID 50 of the U.S. Reference Rubella Virus and 20,000 TCID 50 of the U.S. Reference Mumps Virus. Each dose contains approximately 25 mcg of neomycin. The product contains no preservative. Sorbitol and hydrolized gelatin are added as stabilizers.[/b]
source
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  #14  
March 7th, 2007, 10:00 AM
Tofu Bacon
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Quote:
It is the same to me in this case...the case studies of those abortions clearly indicate that the de wocision to abort in those cases had nothing to do with furthering the science of vaccination, nor were the women paid for that & would have taken place regardless of whether the remains were then disposed of or used to develop life-saving vaccinations. If I believed for even a moment that abortions were being performed now for the express purpose of providing tissue to be used in this way, I would be the first person on a soap-box - but clearly that is not what is happening & I can't undo what happened 44yrs ago, 42 yrs ago, 40 yrs ago & 21 yrs ago by refusing that treatment today.[/b]
Sort of... during the rubella epidemic of 1964, many rubella-exposed pregnant women were encouraged to abort their fetus. The fetus' used to develop a vaccine for rubella were obtained through 26 abortions deliberately performed in a controlled setting, to be handed over to Merck. Yes they were performed with the mothers' consent, but this was also during the "never question your doctor" era; but for the fact that they were encouraged (possibly even coerced?) how likely is it that they would have had those abortions, given the fact that Congenital Rubella Syndrome wasn't very common? CRS was so rare that it wasn't even a reportable disease until 1966. What's even more disturbing is that this was all unecessary: Japan had already developed a cell-line for a rubella vaccine...from the throat culture of child infected with the rubella virus.

BTW, this is not the main reason why we don't vax, just part of it.
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  #15  
March 7th, 2007, 10:48 AM
Tofu Bacon
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Quote:
If I believed for even a moment that abortions were being performed now for the express purpose of providing tissue to be used in this way, I would be the first person on a soap-box - but clearly that is not what is happening[/b]
It is still happening: new fetal cells lines (PER.C6) were harvested in 1995 from a fetus 18 weeks gestation to help develop and ebola vaccine, an HIV vaccine and another flu vaccine.
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  #16  
March 7th, 2007, 11:00 AM
mrobinson
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Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
If I believed for even a moment that abortions were being performed now for the express purpose of providing tissue to be used in this way, I would be the first person on a soap-box - but clearly that is not what is happening[/b]
It is still happening: new fetal cells lines (PER.C6) were harvested in 1995 from a fetus 18 weeks gestation to help develop and ebola vaccine, an HIV vaccine and another flu vaccine.
[/b][/quote]

((This is an awesome debate!))

I read that was overturned.. Introduced as a need but not carried out. Do you have more information on that?

Quote:
A woman's choice to donate to medical research tissue that she has aborted begins and ends with her. Federal and state laws have been specifically written to ensure that her choice to donate tissue from her abortion to medical research is made in an informed and ethical manner. First, she is legally required to give her written consent to have an abortion. Only after she has consented to have an abortion can she provide the necessary written consent to donate the fetal tissue. She cannot be paid for the donation. She cannot know or designate the recipient (USCA, 1988; USCA, 1993).

Knowing she can donate tissue from her abortion to potentially lifesaving medical research may help a woman turn an unintended pregnancy about which she may feel a sense of loss into a social good. The choice to donate often gives solace to women who may need to end their pregnancies (Anderson, et al., 1994; Martin, 1993; Martin, et al., 1995).[/b]
source
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  #17  
March 7th, 2007, 11:49 AM
Tofu Bacon
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At this point they have sold licences for PER.C6 to several pharmaceutical manufacturers, so as far as I know it is still a go:

http://www.neotropix.com/news/a031604.pdf
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  #18  
March 7th, 2007, 12:03 PM
mrobinson
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Influenza viruses for vaccine production are currently grown on embryonated eggs. This manufacturing system conveys many major drawbacks such as inflexibility, cumbersome down stream processing, inability of some strains to replicate on eggs to high enough yields, and selection of receptor-binding variants with reduced antigenicity. These limitations emphasize the need for a cell line-based production system that could replace eggs in the production of influenza virus vaccines in a pandemic proof fashion. Here we present the efficient propagation of influenza A and B viruses on the fully characterized and standardized human cell line PER.C6. Source here
I'm just trying to see exactly where it's from abortions (but I'm still researching..) standardized human cell lines can be vague.

I guess the bottom line is, if it is happening, is a person for or against that choice? I think many people are against vaccinations and many people are against abortions. However lots of people respect choice of others so the choice to vax or abort is up to the family &/or individual.
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  #19  
March 7th, 2007, 12:48 PM
Tofu Bacon
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The terms human cell lines and human diploid cells are used because it sounds nicer, I guess, without actually disclosing were the cells are harvested from. You'll also see "ingredients" like RA27/3, HEK293,MR-5 or WI-38; those are the names of the specific fetal cell lines. If the ingredients listed "aborted human fetal tissue" plain as day, it would be more alarming, eh?

Here's 2 of them, I'll have to do some searching for the others:
http://www.cogforlife.org/mrc-5.htm
http://www.cogforlife.org/wi-38.htm

Quote:
I guess the bottom line is, if it is happening, is a person for or against that choice? I think many people are against vaccinations and many people are against abortions. However lots of people respect choice of others so the choice to vax or abort is up to the family &/or individual[/b]
Exactly. I can definitely respect that one can be pro-life but still accept vaccines with human fetal tissue. I think it comes down to how necessary each individual feels that vaccines are; there are too many issues surrounding vaccination to base a decision solely off of one aspect.
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  #20  
March 7th, 2007, 12:50 PM
mrobinson
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Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
I guess the bottom line is, if it is happening, is a person for or against that choice? I think many people are against vaccinations and many people are against abortions. However lots of people respect choice of others so the choice to vax or abort is up to the family &/or individual[/b]
Exactly. I can definitely respect that one can be pro-life but still accept vaccines with human fetal tissue. I think it comes down to how necessary each individual feels that vaccines are; there are too many issues surrounding vaccination to base a decision solely off of one aspect.
[/b][/quote]
I think you and I are in complete agreement!

Honestly I do wish they would just use fetal tissue because with stem cells, there is a confusion on what is what..
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