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Abortion Debate

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  #42  
April 6th, 2007, 11:26 AM
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I understand what you are saying but at the same time you are not understanding what I am saying.[/b]
I completely understand what you are saying, I just happen to realize why it is still wrong.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
<div class='quotemain'>The woman would just be "supporting the medical needs" of the fetus until it can be removed and given to the owner.[/b]
The owner?
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She doesn't own the fetus or the baby after it's born so it's not selling a baby. It's selling the fetus.[/b]
Again, a fetus is HUMAN TISSUE, so it is illegal to sell.
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Of course I don't think it is ethical to sell a human fetus because it is a living human.[/b]
No, it is not. It is a developing human.
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BUT, why is it legal to abort a living human and not sell it??[/b]
It is not a living human, it is a(n) embryo/fetus, it is human tissue. You cannot sell a fetus for the same reason I cannot sell a kidney.
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It is not legal to sell a 3 year old NOR is it legal to kill it but when it comes to the unborn it is not the case.[/b]
Apples and oranges. A 3 year old IS a living human. It is an autonomous, sentient being.

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Why then is it legal to abort it?[/b]
I can also have my tonsils or a kidney removed. I can remove human tissue, but I cannot sell it.
[/b][/quote]
But we are ALL still developing...even in old age, we all are still developing, we still go through stages.
[/b][/quote]
We are sentient, autonomous beings, unlike a fetus.
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  #44  
April 6th, 2007, 11:32 AM
Cereal Killer's Avatar I'm climbin' in yo window
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Quote:
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I understand what you are saying but at the same time you are not understanding what I am saying.[/b]
I completely understand what you are saying, I just happen to realize why it is still wrong.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
<div class='quotemain'>The woman would just be "supporting the medical needs" of the fetus until it can be removed and given to the owner.[/b]
The owner?
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She doesn't own the fetus or the baby after it's born so it's not selling a baby. It's selling the fetus.[/b]
Again, a fetus is HUMAN TISSUE, so it is illegal to sell.
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Of course I don't think it is ethical to sell a human fetus because it is a living human.[/b]
No, it is not. It is a developing human.
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BUT, why is it legal to abort a living human and not sell it??[/b]
It is not a living human, it is a(n) embryo/fetus, it is human tissue. You cannot sell a fetus for the same reason I cannot sell a kidney.
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It is not legal to sell a 3 year old NOR is it legal to kill it but when it comes to the unborn it is not the case.[/b]
Apples and oranges. A 3 year old IS a living human. It is an autonomous, sentient being.

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Why then is it legal to abort it?[/b]
I can also have my tonsils or a kidney removed. I can remove human tissue, but I cannot sell it.
[/b][/quote]
But we are ALL still developing...even in old age, we all are still developing, we still go through stages.



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I know what a fetus is but thank you for your definition.[/b]
Well, if you know what the definition is, then why are you questioning me for using the term properly?

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I told you the circumstances around the "selling". Just because you don't see it how I do doesn't mean it wouldn't be the selling of a fetus [/b]
The only way you could sell a fetus is to conduct the sale, and then remove the fetus and reimplant it, yet that would go against selling human tissue, a catch 22. Aside from the fact that selling humans is illegal, selling human tissue is illegal. An embryo/fetus is human tissue. My kidney does not have a heartbeat and I will survive without one of them, and yet, I cannot sell it. I can donate my kidney, or if one malfunctions I can have it removed, but I cannot sell it. The embryo/fetus is seen as human tissue, therefore it cannot be sold, the tissue can be extracted (aborted) but not sold. I feel like this has been explained and reexplained and it is still not getting through.
[/b]
But the fetus/embryo does have a heartbeat.
[/b][/quote]
That was kinda my point, I think you missed it.

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I can't find anywhere that says the fetal stage is at the end of the third month. All I can find is that the fetal stage begins at the end of the eighth week. Hmm....[/b]
HMMMM, well why don't you go look at the links I posted. Most links state that it begins somewhere around the 8th or 9th week after CONCEPTION (which would make it around the 3rd month of the pregnancy). Just about every site I looked at defines it differently, so obviously it is not something that is completely agreed upon.
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I also want to make it perfectly clear that I don't believe in selling human organs, human babies or human fetuses.[/b]
Then why are you advocating it?
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I just can't grasp the fact that it's ok to abort it but not ok to sell it.[/b]
It is legal to abort or extract human tissue, it is not okay to sell it.
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But hey, 50 years ago they never thought that abortion would be legal so who knows what will be legal 50 years from now.....[/b]
Many, many years ago it was legal to sell humans, thankfully, we have since outlawed slavery. I doubt it will ever be legal to sell humans or human tissue. There are to many variables, possibilities and repurcussions of such a thing. It would be appaulling, IMO.
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  #46  
April 6th, 2007, 11:42 AM
Cereal Killer's Avatar I'm climbin' in yo window
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Bolded: I guess I did...what was your point? (Not meant to be rude or sarcastic). I guess my point was that...if it is ok to take out the kidney, (based on factors like you could live without and it doesn't have a heartbeat, etc.) then why is it ok to take out a fetus/embryo, when it does have a heartbeat...(though I am sure it will become a sentient/personhood arguement... I don't wanna hijack this thread...so if I am right, (about the sentience being a part of this arguement) then I can agree to disagree.[/b]
My point was the selling of tissue. I cannot sell my kidney, not because it is a developing human, but because it is human tissue. The law prevents anyone from selling organs, body parts, etc. So, the sale of a fetus, which IS a developing human, still falls under this law as well as the moral implications of allowing the sale of humans, developing or full fledged. Does that make sense?
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  #49  
April 6th, 2007, 12:49 PM
Cereal Killer's Avatar I'm climbin' in yo window
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But I still am just confused on the whole "ok to kill the baby, but not ok to sell it".[/b]
That is only because you assume the fetus is a baby. Legally, it is not the case.
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  #51  
April 6th, 2007, 02:54 PM
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You can donate your whole body for medical research but not your embryo....now, make sense of that![/b]
There is the key.
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  #53  
April 6th, 2007, 03:05 PM
Cereal Killer's Avatar I'm climbin' in yo window
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You can donate your whole body for medical research but not your embryo....now, make sense of that![/b]
There is the key.
[/b]
I'm sorry I went off on a whole different debate. Why is it ok to donate your whole body for medical research but not your embryo? (This has nothing to do with selling either).
[/b]
I believe every state is different, but in many states you can donate embryos to science and research. I donated my stem cells after the birth of DD.
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  #54  
April 6th, 2007, 03:11 PM
eash's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Quote:
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You can donate your whole body for medical research but not your embryo....now, make sense of that![/b]
There is the key.
[/b]
I'm sorry I went off on a whole different debate. Why is it ok to donate your whole body for medical research but not your embryo? (This has nothing to do with selling either).
[/b]
You can 100% donate embryos to infertile couples.
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  #56  
April 6th, 2007, 03:18 PM
eash's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StaceyC @ Apr 6 2007, 04:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>
Quote:
You can donate your whole body for medical research but not your embryo....now, make sense of that![/b]
There is the key.
[/b]
I'm sorry I went off on a whole different debate. Why is it ok to donate your whole body for medical research but not your embryo? (This has nothing to do with selling either).
[/b]
I believe every state is different, but in many states you can donate embryos to science and research. I donated my stem cells after the birth of DD.
[/b][/quote]

I'm guessing you donated his cord blood. I'm talking about donating an embryo for medical research which to my knowledge, is illegal (I know you will correct me if I'm wrong ). It's illegal to donate an embryo for medical research but not illegal to donate an organ or tissue, why is that?
[/b][/quote]

You can donate organ and tissue to research if you are deceased. You can donate embryos at any point to research, infertile couples, etc. at any times.
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  #57  
April 6th, 2007, 03:20 PM
Cereal Killer's Avatar I'm climbin' in yo window
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StaceyC @ Apr 6 2007, 04:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>
Quote:
You can donate your whole body for medical research but not your embryo....now, make sense of that![/b]
There is the key.
[/b]
I'm sorry I went off on a whole different debate. Why is it ok to donate your whole body for medical research but not your embryo? (This has nothing to do with selling either).
[/b]
I believe every state is different, but in many states you can donate embryos to science and research. I donated my stem cells after the birth of DD.
[/b][/quote]

I'm guessing you donated his cord blood. I'm talking about donating an embryo for medical research which to my knowledge, is illegal (I know you will correct me if I'm wrong ). It's illegal to donate an embryo for medical research but not illegal to donate an organ or tissue, why is that?
[/b][/quote]
No, it is not, it just varies from state to state. From what I can find it is illegal in only 6 states. It is legal in California, Connecticut, Minnesota, Maryland, New Jersey, just to name a few.

http://www.ncsl.org/programs/health/...isposition.htm
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  #60  
April 6th, 2007, 05:14 PM
Cereal Killer's Avatar I'm climbin' in yo window
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Do you mean donate like, after the baby has died? Or donate like...while the baby is alive (kwim? As in, getting rid of the pregnancy for the sole purpose of donating, or having say, a miscarriage or something and THEN donating)?[/b]
For the most part, I believe, it is those that have embryos left over from IVF.
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