Log In Sign Up

Another choice for pregnant women


Abortion Debate

This forum is for Abortion debate only. If you are highly sensitive about this topic, read at your own discretion.

Welcome to the JustMommies Message Boards.

We pride ourselves on having the friendliest and most welcoming forums for moms and moms to be! Please take a moment and register for free so you can be a part of our growing community of mothers. If you have any problems registering please drop an email to boards@justmommies.com.

Our community is moderated by our moderation team so you won't see spam or offensive messages posted on our forums. Each of our message boards is hosted by JustMommies hosts, whose names are listed at the top each board. We hope you find our message boards friendly, helpful, and fun to be on!

Reply Post New Topic
  Subscribe To Abortion Debate LinkBack Topic Tools Search this Topic Display Modes
  #2  
April 4th, 2007, 06:59 PM
Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: ohio
Posts: 3,657
I kinda feel that's adoption without agency. The problem is the abuse of a system like that.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #4  
April 4th, 2007, 07:19 PM
Cereal Killer's Avatar I'm climbin' in yo window
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: next to Chuck Norris
Posts: 7,373
Selling humans? Not something I could ever get behind, personally. I think that would completely promote and expand the black market sale of children.
__________________
Wife, Mother of 4, Homeschooling, and wine drinking.


Reply With Quote
  #6  
April 4th, 2007, 07:40 PM
Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: ohio
Posts: 3,657
by law as soon as it comes out it is. adoptions cost $8,000 - $40,000 so some ones geting paid.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #7  
April 5th, 2007, 05:36 AM
Cereal Killer's Avatar I'm climbin' in yo window
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: next to Chuck Norris
Posts: 7,373
Quote:
Quote:
Selling humans? Not something I could ever get behind, personally. I think that would completely promote and expand the black market sale of children.[/b]
That's the thing though, a "fetus" isn't seen as human in the eyes of the law or else it would be illegal to have an abortion. If the sale was before the fetus was born then it's not a human then, right?
[/b]
I don't think anyone argues that a fetus is human, it is a biological fact that it is a developing human. The question is when a fetus acheives "personhood", not human status.

There is a reason that black market sales of fetuses and babies are illegal. People would then be going out with the sole intention of selling the fetus. Perhaps people would only want to buy a fetus to sell to someone else, or maybe they just want it for organs for their other sick child. Crack heads will be getting paid to procreate and bring drug addicted babies into the world, young girls that end up pregnant will not be able to rationalize the BEST decision if all they see are dollar signs.
I see nothing positive about people selling off pregnancies to the highest bidder.
__________________
Wife, Mother of 4, Homeschooling, and wine drinking.


Reply With Quote
  #8  
April 5th, 2007, 05:39 AM
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 367
Isn't this surrgacy? Just w/o a contract before conception?
__________________
<span style="color:#CC0000">Speak your mind, even if your voice shakes.
-Maggie Kuhn



Reply With Quote
  #9  
April 5th, 2007, 05:49 AM
Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,780
So if adoption costs several thousand dollars, where is that money going? Does the mom see any of it?
__________________



Reply With Quote
  #11  
April 5th, 2007, 06:19 AM
Cereal Killer's Avatar I'm climbin' in yo window
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: next to Chuck Norris
Posts: 7,373
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StaceyC @ Apr 4 2007, 09:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>
Selling humans? Not something I could ever get behind, personally. I think that would completely promote and expand the black market sale of children.[/b]
That's the thing though, a "fetus" isn't seen as human in the eyes of the law or else it would be illegal to have an abortion. If the sale was before the fetus was born then it's not a human then, right?
[/b]
I don't think anyone argues that a fetus is human, it is a biological fact that it is a developing human. The question is when a fetus acheives "personhood", not human status.

There is a reason that black market sales of fetuses and babies are illegal. People would then be going out with the sole intention of selling the fetus. Perhaps people would only want to buy a fetus to sell to someone else, or maybe they just want it for organs for their other sick child. Crack heads will be getting paid to procreate and bring drug addicted babies into the world, young girls that end up pregnant will not be able to rationalize the BEST decision if all they see are dollar signs.
I see nothing positive about people selling off pregnancies to the highest bidder.
[/b][/quote]

Well then if it is not illegal to have an abortion then in the eyes of the law then the law isn't seeing the fetus as a "person" until 18 weeks in most states. So if the woman decides she doesn't want the fetus why can't she just sell it. It's illegal to sell a person but since the fetus isn't a person until 18 weeks then it wouldn't be illegal. She would just be selling this pre-baby. Of course the parent would have to undergo tests to ensure that the "pre-baby" is healthy and drug-free or else the deal is off.

Edited due to my son pressing the enter button before I was done
[/b][/quote]
But, this woman is not selling her fetus, unless we are talking about removing the fetus at the time of the sale, she is selling the fully developed person that will be born one day. You can sell your eggs, you can sell your sperm, you cannot sell embryos and there is a reason we don't allow even that. We are not talking about selling the fetus, we are talking about selling the child after it's birth. So, yes, all of the paperwork would be signed and the money might change hands during the fetushood, but the transaction isn't complete until one passes a human baby into the hands of the highest bidder.
__________________
Wife, Mother of 4, Homeschooling, and wine drinking.


Reply With Quote
  #13  
April 5th, 2007, 06:24 PM
Cereal Killer's Avatar I'm climbin' in yo window
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: next to Chuck Norris
Posts: 7,373
Quote:
The woman would only be the "house" for the fetus until its born.[/b]
But, once the fetus is born it becomes the sale of a baby.
Quote:
When she does accept the money and signs the papers before the 18th week (for example) the fetus is no longer hers so she has no right to it.[/b]
So, are we going to remove the 18 week old fetus? How can she have no right to it if it is inside of her? Since it is no longer her responsibility once the sale is final at 18 weeks gestation, can she go on a drinking binge?
Quote:
It's like being a surrogate in a sense.[/b]
Surrogacy is different. It is a premeditated arrangement made between adults without the use of duress.
Quote:
Why can't we sell embryos? Is it illegal because it is a person, or human or what?[/b]
It is illegal because it opens the door to researchers and companies buying embryos for cloning and testing. It is illegal because it opens the possibility that someone will purchase a human embryo for unethical or immoral purposes.
Quote:
So it's illegal to sell a human but not illegal to abort a human.[/b]
Yes.
__________________
Wife, Mother of 4, Homeschooling, and wine drinking.


Reply With Quote
  #14  
April 5th, 2007, 06:24 PM
eash's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,969
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StaceyC @ Apr 5 2007, 07:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StaceyC @ Apr 4 2007, 09:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>
Selling humans? Not something I could ever get behind, personally. I think that would completely promote and expand the black market sale of children.[/b]
That's the thing though, a "fetus" isn't seen as human in the eyes of the law or else it would be illegal to have an abortion. If the sale was before the fetus was born then it's not a human then, right?
[/b]
I don't think anyone argues that a fetus is human, it is a biological fact that it is a developing human. The question is when a fetus acheives "personhood", not human status.

There is a reason that black market sales of fetuses and babies are illegal. People would then be going out with the sole intention of selling the fetus. Perhaps people would only want to buy a fetus to sell to someone else, or maybe they just want it for organs for their other sick child. Crack heads will be getting paid to procreate and bring drug addicted babies into the world, young girls that end up pregnant will not be able to rationalize the BEST decision if all they see are dollar signs.
I see nothing positive about people selling off pregnancies to the highest bidder.
[/b][/quote]

Well then if it is not illegal to have an abortion then in the eyes of the law then the law isn't seeing the fetus as a "person" until 18 weeks in most states. So if the woman decides she doesn't want the fetus why can't she just sell it. It's illegal to sell a person but since the fetus isn't a person until 18 weeks then it wouldn't be illegal. She would just be selling this pre-baby. Of course the parent would have to undergo tests to ensure that the "pre-baby" is healthy and drug-free or else the deal is off.

Edited due to my son pressing the enter button before I was done
[/b][/quote]
But, this woman is not selling her fetus, unless we are talking about removing the fetus at the time of the sale, she is selling the fully developed person that will be born one day. You can sell your eggs, you can sell your sperm, you cannot sell embryos and there is a reason we don't allow even that. We are not talking about selling the fetus, we are talking about selling the child after it's birth. So, yes, all of the paperwork would be signed and the money might change hands during the fetushood, but the transaction isn't complete until one passes a human baby into the hands of the highest bidder.
[/b][/quote]

The woman would only be the "house" for the fetus until its born. When she does accept the money and signs the papers before the 18th week (for example) the fetus is no longer hers so she has no right to it. It's like being a surrogate in a sense. Why can't we sell embryos? Is it illegal because it is a person, or human or what? So it's illegal to sell a human but not illegal to abort a human.
[/b][/quote]

Why would the mother care about the welfare and safety of the baby if she has not rights to it and sold it at the 18th week? Would she truly take care of herself for a fetus which she is willing to sell and has no emotional attachement to?
You can't sell embryos because it is human tissue. The same way you can't sell organs. It is simply unethical.
"You" believe a fetus is a human, legally it is not.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
April 5th, 2007, 07:26 PM
Cereal Killer's Avatar I'm climbin' in yo window
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: next to Chuck Norris
Posts: 7,373
Quote:
Exactly, legally a fetus is not a human, yet it is unethical to sell it. But it's not unethical to pay someone to get rid of it.[/b]
It is also illegal for me to sell my kidney, because it is illegal to sell human tissue.
Quote:
Hmmm, let's ask the same question (almost) to someone who gives their child up for adoption (without sell and 18th week in there).[/b]
An adoption is not a financial arrangement. It is a decision a pregant women makes because she feels it is in the best interest of herself and the fetus, the same reasons a different women chooses to abort. Adoption is a choice made without the influence of financial gain and without duress.
__________________
Wife, Mother of 4, Homeschooling, and wine drinking.


Reply With Quote
  #18  
April 5th, 2007, 07:44 PM
Cereal Killer's Avatar I'm climbin' in yo window
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: next to Chuck Norris
Posts: 7,373
Quote:
What about Traditional surrogates then? They are "selling" their fetus in a sense....[/b]
I see it as completely different. There is a premeditated arrangement, prior to any pregnancy ever occurring. The fetus is usually the product of the intended parents sperm and egg being implanted, artificial insemination or a donated egg and/or sperm into the surrogate. The surrogate is financially compensated for medical, living and other expenses for the duration of her pregnancy. In many states paying a surrogate anything above the expenses incurred as a result of the pregnancy is illegal. After an agreement is made, the surrogate is, one way or another, impregnated.
__________________
Wife, Mother of 4, Homeschooling, and wine drinking.


Reply With Quote
  #20  
April 5th, 2007, 11:46 PM
m.and.a
Guest
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(StaceyC @ Apr 4 2007, 09:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>
Selling humans? Not something I could ever get behind, personally. I think that would completely promote and expand the black market sale of children.[/b]
That's the thing though, a "fetus" isn't seen as human in the eyes of the law or else it would be illegal to have an abortion. If the sale was before the fetus was born then it's not a human then, right?
[/b]
I don't think anyone argues that a fetus is human, it is a biological fact that it is a developing human. The question is when a fetus acheives "personhood", not human status.

There is a reason that black market sales of fetuses and babies are illegal. People would then be going out with the sole intention of selling the fetus. Perhaps people would only want to buy a fetus to sell to someone else, or maybe they just want it for organs for their other sick child. Crack heads will be getting paid to procreate and bring drug addicted babies into the world, young girls that end up pregnant will not be able to rationalize the BEST decision if all they see are dollar signs.
I see nothing positive about people selling off pregnancies to the highest bidder.
[/b][/quote]

Well then if it is not illegal to have an abortion then in the eyes of the law then the law isn't seeing the fetus as a "person" until 18 weeks in most states. So if the woman decides she doesn't want the fetus why can't she just sell it. It's illegal to sell a person but since the fetus isn't a person until 18 weeks then it wouldn't be illegal. She would just be selling this pre-baby. Of course the parent would have to undergo tests to ensure that the "pre-baby" is healthy and drug-free or else the deal is off.

Edited due to my son pressing the enter button before I was done
[/b][/quote]


Interesting thought, and although I see your point, I think the fallacy in the logic is that at the 18 week period (24 weeks even in some states), the fetus would no longer be a "pre-baby" and the sell would then be illegal. But you do raise interesting questions. Why is it "better" to abort a fetus than sell it? One avenue is legally acceptable, the other isn't. One ends up with a dead baby, the other doesn't. What's the difference in a woman selling her unfertilized egg and her fertilized egg? However, I'm just really paying devils advocate, the selling of humans is just plain wrong. If anything, slavery is illegal in the US. Parents, wether biological or not do not "own" their children, and to be able to buy a child, suggests ownership of said child.

I think one of the ethical problems I would have would be the women who made careers of being human incubators. Then of course, there are all the situations that arise in everyday adoptions. What if the woman decides to keep the baby once it is born?

I'm looking forward to the day that science can duplicate in-utero environments, ending "preemies" as we know it. Perhaps these "artificial wombs" can also be used to incubate children who would have been aborted. I'm not sure this is anything we'll ever see in our lifetimes, but I think it will be a reality one day.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Topic Tools Search this Topic
Search this Topic:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:45 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0