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Abortion Debate

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  #21  
April 16th, 2007, 08:04 AM
mrobinson
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Except where is the mother's responsibility in all this? The man didn't FORCE her to get pregnant... She made choices that led to that. (Except rape obviously.)

If a woman wants to exercise her "personal freedoms" and "basic human rights" to not give birth, then she should have done that BEFORE getting pregnant.[/b]
People assume she made choices that led to pregnancy.. She may not have had that choice because there are so many reasons why. But people will continue to judge her as if she did make that choice.
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  #22  
April 16th, 2007, 08:09 AM
Cereal Killer's Avatar Aiming for mediocrity
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Should he then have the right to force her through the pain and trauma of birth for his personal satisfaction?How would you seperate actual fathers from men only attempting to controol,oppress,and abuse a pregnant woman?

I think people who say "fathers" should have rights have good intentions....but don't think through all the surrounding "issues"....like the fact that giving men rights over women's bodies would rape the women of thier personal freedoms and violate thier basic human rights.[/b]
Except where is the mother's responsibility in all this? The man didn't FORCE her to get pregnant... She made choices that led to that. (Except rape obviously.)

If a woman wants to exercise her "personal freedoms" and "basic human rights" to not give birth, then she should have done that BEFORE getting pregnant.
[/b]
The mother is taking responsibility.

No, he may not have "forced" her to get pregnant, but no one forced him to impregnate her. It is no secret that a woman is the one to get pregnant, and has the ability to choose whether or not to abort. So if a man wanted to exercise his freedom and right to have a woman bear and birth his child, he should consider that before having unprotected sex with a woman who does not want to do so.
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  #23  
April 16th, 2007, 04:15 PM
Caeden'sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Except where is the mother's responsibility in all this? The man didn't FORCE her to get pregnant... She made choices that led to that. (Except rape obviously.)

If a woman wants to exercise her "personal freedoms" and "basic human rights" to not give birth, then she should have done that BEFORE getting pregnant.[/b]
People assume she made choices that led to pregnancy.. She may not have had that choice because there are so many reasons why. But people will continue to judge her as if she did make that choice.
[/b]
Okay... unless the woman was raped, can you please tell me how the woman did not make choices that led to her pregnancy?

Quote:
No, he may not have "forced" her to get pregnant, but no one forced him to impregnate her. It is no secret that a woman is the one to get pregnant, and has the ability to choose whether or not to abort. So if a man wanted to exercise his freedom and right to have a woman bear and birth his child, he should consider that before having unprotected sex with a woman who does not want to do so.[/b]

Well, that's pretty much my point... They BOTH made those decisions that led to the conception of the baby. Again, except for rape, no one was forced into it. But to me... once that baby is conceived, it's no longer about mom OR dad. They already made their choices. Now it's about that child... who in my opinion, deserves to live.
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  #24  
April 16th, 2007, 07:34 PM
mrobinson
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Except where is the mother's responsibility in all this? The man didn't FORCE her to get pregnant... She made choices that led to that. (Except rape obviously.)

If a woman wants to exercise her "personal freedoms" and "basic human rights" to not give birth, then she should have done that BEFORE getting pregnant.[/b]
People assume she made choices that led to pregnancy.. She may not have had that choice because there are so many reasons why. But people will continue to judge her as if she did make that choice.
[/b]
Okay... unless the woman was raped, can you please tell me how the woman did not make choices that led to her pregnancy?[/b]
You assume that whether or not she used tons of protection, her "choice" to have sex that resulted in getting pregnant is something that should not have an abortion for because in your eyes it's not accountable for her "actions." Correct? People assume that women have sex for recreational purposes 99% of the time with the other 1% being rape. Well what is rape to some isn't for others.. also, abortion isn't about not being accountable. Some women have sex for the wrong reasons. The act of abortion is responsible. It takes thought and has life long conscequences just like having a baby would. To assume that a woman had total control over the "choice" to have sex is uninformed. There is tons of data to support that if you want it.

Quote:
Quote:
No, he may not have "forced" her to get pregnant, but no one forced him to impregnate her. It is no secret that a woman is the one to get pregnant, and has the ability to choose whether or not to abort. So if a man wanted to exercise his freedom and right to have a woman bear and birth his child, he should consider that before having unprotected sex with a woman who does not want to do so.[/b]
Well, that's pretty much my point... They BOTH made those decisions that led to the conception of the baby. Again, except for rape, no one was forced into it. But to me... once that baby is conceived, it's no longer about mom OR dad. They already made their choices. Now it's about that child... who in my opinion, deserves to live.
[/b]
Again, abortion isn't about not being accountable. The act of abortion is responsible. It takes thought and has life long conscequences just like having a baby would. You (and many others) feel that this senerio pregnancy is a child. It's a potential child which is a huge difference when having the lack of commitment to be parents or to carry a fetus full term.
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  #25  
April 16th, 2007, 10:10 PM
Caeden'sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Caeden'sMama @ Apr 15 2007, 11:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>
Except where is the mother's responsibility in all this? The man didn't FORCE her to get pregnant... She made choices that led to that. (Except rape obviously.)

If a woman wants to exercise her "personal freedoms" and "basic human rights" to not give birth, then she should have done that BEFORE getting pregnant.[/b]
People assume she made choices that led to pregnancy.. She may not have had that choice because there are so many reasons why. But people will continue to judge her as if she did make that choice.
[/b]
Okay... unless the woman was raped, can you please tell me how the woman did not make choices that led to her pregnancy?[/b][/quote]
You assume that whether or not she used tons of protection, her "choice" to have sex that resulted in getting pregnant is something that should not have an abortion for because in your eyes it's not accountable for her "actions." Correct? People assume that women have sex for recreational purposes 99% of the time with the other 1% being rape. Well what is rape to some isn't for others.. also, abortion isn't about not being accountable. Some women have sex for the wrong reasons. The act of abortion is responsible. It takes thought and has life long conscequences just like having a baby would. To assume that a woman had total control over the "choice" to have sex is uninformed. There is tons of data to support that if you want it.

Quote:
Quote:
No, he may not have "forced" her to get pregnant, but no one forced him to impregnate her. It is no secret that a woman is the one to get pregnant, and has the ability to choose whether or not to abort. So if a man wanted to exercise his freedom and right to have a woman bear and birth his child, he should consider that before having unprotected sex with a woman who does not want to do so.[/b]
Well, that's pretty much my point... They BOTH made those decisions that led to the conception of the baby. Again, except for rape, no one was forced into it. But to me... once that baby is conceived, it's no longer about mom OR dad. They already made their choices. Now it's about that child... who in my opinion, deserves to live.
[/b]
Again, abortion isn't about not being accountable. The act of abortion is responsible. It takes thought and has life long conscequences just like having a baby would. You (and many others) feel that this senerio pregnancy is a child. It's a potential child which is a huge difference when having the lack of commitment to be parents or to carry a fetus full term.
[/b][/quote]

Okay, maybe i'm just really tired, or maybe we just TOTALLY disagree, but i still don't see how the woman didn't make the choice to have sex? Huh? Again, i'm not talking about rape... which is definitely NOT the majority of abortions. So i'm kinda lost on your point...

And obviously we just differ on whether a fetus is a child or a potential child. Not much we can debate there. Just agree to disagree on that one.
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  #26  
April 17th, 2007, 07:04 AM
mommyKathyX3
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I have to say on this particular topic I'm agreeing with Caedens mom completly.

Side note: oh, and love the name Caeden. We went back and forth on wether to name our son Caden, or Caeden. We LIKE the spelling of Caeden better cause its irish (hubby) but we figured people would ALWAYS spell it wrong, and we already have that issue with Chloe (Cloe, Clowe, Chlowy, Chole etc I dont get it, I ALWAYS thought it was Chloe?) , so we decided to go with the "americanized" version. Caden. But we do call him Cade. Still love the name though.
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  #27  
April 17th, 2007, 07:12 AM
mrobinson
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Then let's assume we agree to disagree.

To anyone else..

Quote:
Two-thirds of all abortions are among never-married women.[9]

Over 60% of abortions are among women who have had one or more children.[10]

The abortion rate among women living below the federal poverty level ($9,570 for a single woman with no children) is more than four times that of women above 300% of the poverty level (44 vs. 10 abortions per 1,000 women).[11]*

On average, women give four reasons for choosing abortion. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.[12][/b]
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

Obviously women choosing to have an abortion have circumstances way out of her control.. Many women assume that these women are being irresponsible when (the above stats) suggest otherwise.
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  #28  
April 17th, 2007, 12:23 PM
Caeden&#39;sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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I have to say on this particular topic I'm agreeing with Caedens mom completly.

Side note: oh, and love the name Caeden. We went back and forth on wether to name our son Caden, or Caeden. We LIKE the spelling of Caeden better cause its irish (hubby) but we figured people would ALWAYS spell it wrong, and we already have that issue with Chloe (Cloe, Clowe, Chlowy, Chole etc I dont get it, I ALWAYS thought it was Chloe?) , so we decided to go with the "americanized" version. Caden. But we do call him Cade. Still love the name though. [/b]
Thank you! It's funny, we actually started out wanting to spell it Caden, until i saw the Caeden spelling somewhere. And then we immediately liked that better and went with that. I'm mostly irish too, which is probably part of the attraction for me as well.

But i agree, either spelling... it's a great name!

Quote:
Then let's assume we agree to disagree.

To anyone else..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
Two-thirds of all abortions are among never-married women.[9]

Over 60% of abortions are among women who have had one or more children.[10]

The abortion rate among women living below the federal poverty level ($9,570 for a single woman with no children) is more than four times that of women above 300% of the poverty level (44 vs. 10 abortions per 1,000 women).[11]*

On average, women give four reasons for choosing abortion. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.[12][/b]
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

Obviously women choosing to have an abortion have circumstances way out of her control.. Many women assume that these women are being irresponsible when (the above stats) suggest otherwise.
[/b][/quote]

Okay... a woman's CIRCUMSTANCES may be out of her control, but having sex is still not... She is still fully in control of her body. So i'm STILL lost on your point...
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  #29  
April 17th, 2007, 12:27 PM
mrobinson
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Okay... a woman's CIRCUMSTANCES may be out of her control, but having sex is still not... She is still fully in control of her body. So i'm STILL lost on your point... [/b]
You're right.. The point is then lost. Birth control fail and siblings shouldn't have to suffer because of it. Is that any better?

Why are you so against women having control over her body?
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  #30  
April 17th, 2007, 12:37 PM
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It's a judgment call really.
What is a "good" reason to have an abortion is entirely a matter of opinion.

I may think that if someone will lose their job if they carry a pregnancy to term, that is a GOOD reason to have an abortion. But someone else can think, they should just get another job. Just an example.
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  #31  
April 17th, 2007, 12:44 PM
mrobinson
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It's a judgment call really.
What is a "good" reason to have an abortion is entirely a matter of opinion.

I may think that if someone will lose their job if they carry a pregnancy to term, that is a GOOD reason to have an abortion. But someone else can think, they should just get another job. Just an example.[/b]
This thread is about father's rights.. All along we have been trying to show that having others dictate someone's else womb is faulty at best. So really a "good" reason to have control over a women's womb is what we are debating.
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  #32  
April 17th, 2007, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
It's a judgment call really.
What is a "good" reason to have an abortion is entirely a matter of opinion.

I may think that if someone will lose their job if they carry a pregnancy to term, that is a GOOD reason to have an abortion. But someone else can think, they should just get another job. Just an example.[/b]
This thread is about father's rights.. All along we have been trying to show that having others dictate someone's else womb is faulty at best. So really a "good" reason to have control over a women's womb is what we are debating.
[/b]
I don't think there is a good reason for one person to make decisions that another person's body will have to carry out.
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  #33  
April 17th, 2007, 12:50 PM
mommyKathyX3
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Okay... a woman's CIRCUMSTANCES may be out of her control, but having sex is still not... She is still fully in control of her body. So i'm STILL lost on your point... [/b]
You're right.. The point is then lost. Birth control fail and siblings shouldn't have to suffer because of it. Is that any better?

Why are you so against women having control over her body?
[/b]
A child is a possible outcome of sex, you control the fact weather or not you have sex (not counting the rape instances) so if you dont want to chance having a child, dont have sex. Some people say thats OBSERD, but whatever, thats the way I feel. Dont blame the child when it (getting pregnant) happens. Once you get pregnant, I dont believe that body is only yours anymore. Matter of opionion? Sure, but letting you know religion and abortion are the two things that nobody will sway me on.
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  #34  
April 17th, 2007, 12:54 PM
mrobinson
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A child is a possible outcome of sex, you control the fact weather or not you have sex (not counting the rape instances) so if you dont want to chance having a child, dont have sex. Some people say thats OBSERD, but whatever, thats the way I feel. Dont blame the child when it (getting pregnant) happens. Once you get pregnant, I dont believe that body is only yours anymore. Matter of opionion? Sure, but letting you know religion and abortion are the two things that nobody will sway me on.[/b]
Religions and abortion are two things people should question, especially if imposing those thoughts and actions on others.
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  #35  
April 17th, 2007, 06:57 PM
Caeden&#39;sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Okay... a woman's CIRCUMSTANCES may be out of her control, but having sex is still not... She is still fully in control of her body. So i'm STILL lost on your point... [/b]
You're right.. The point is then lost. Birth control fail and siblings shouldn't have to suffer because of it. Is that any better?

Why are you so against women having control over her body?
[/b]
I'm not... i'm very MUCH about a woman controlling her body! As in... you don't want to be pregnant, don't have sex. Harsh? Sure... But we all know pregnancy is a possible result of sex, no matter how protected. If you are THAT opposed to pregnancy, then perhaps it's time to reconsider having sex. Once you are pregnant, it is no longer about you. Abortion is destroying ANOTHER person's body... the child that YOU created. The other thing is, there is always adoption. So the siblings don't necessarily have to suffer if you're in that bad of shape.

Quote:
Quote:
A child is a possible outcome of sex, you control the fact weather or not you have sex (not counting the rape instances) so if you dont want to chance having a child, dont have sex. Some people say thats OBSERD, but whatever, thats the way I feel. Dont blame the child when it (getting pregnant) happens. Once you get pregnant, I dont believe that body is only yours anymore. Matter of opionion? Sure, but letting you know religion and abortion are the two things that nobody will sway me on.[/b]
Religions and abortion are two things people should question, especially if imposing those thoughts and actions on others.
[/b]
Well, abortion is imposing your thoughts and actions on others... It's killing a child. And just because i'm opposed to abortion, doesn't mean i haven't questioned it. I actually used to be pro-choice, and arguing the other end. But, i changed, and so did my beliefs BECAUSE of questioning them. You oppose murder right? Well, that's what i view abortion as... so of course i want that "imposed" on others, just like laws against murder.
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  #36  
April 17th, 2007, 08:41 PM
mommyKathyX3
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you can question me as much as you want, and questioning these things is what made me SO much more sure that i'm steadfast in what I believe. Questioning makes you either stronger in your choices or unsure in them. Those two points, I can not be swayed cause I have questioned them. Its not like its something I go into blindly. Now with a lot of politics, I have my opinon, but I'm not firm in my stance (among other things) Get what I mean?
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  #37  
April 18th, 2007, 10:05 AM
mrobinson
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I understand where both of you are coming from.. I just wish I could some how show you both where opposing abortion and supporting those who oppose it, is forcing others in a harder position in so many ways.
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  #38  
April 18th, 2007, 11:10 AM
Caeden&#39;sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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I understand where both of you are coming from.. I just wish I could some how show you both where opposing abortion and supporting those who oppose it, is forcing others in a harder position in so many ways.[/b]
Well, feel free to try and elaborate and show me that...

But to be honest, i HAVE thought about this issue more than you probably realize... So i doubt you're going to present some scenario i haven't already thought of. I may agree with you that sometimes certain situations suck. Life IS hard, no denying that... But i doubt it will change my view on abortion because to me, it's a fundamental thing. To ME it is murdering an innocent child, and nothing with the rare exception of self-defense (if mom's health is at risk or whatever) can make that okay. For the same reason "regular" murder is outlawed and not okay, abortion is that to me... Do you not understand that? I know you don't AGREE with it, but can you not understand where i'm coming from there?
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  #39  
April 18th, 2007, 12:43 PM
mrobinson
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Quote:
I understand where both of you are coming from.. I just wish I could some how show you both where opposing abortion and supporting those who oppose it, is forcing others in a harder position in so many ways.[/b]
Well, feel free to try and elaborate and show me that...

But to be honest, i HAVE thought about this issue more than you probably realize... So i doubt you're going to present some scenario i haven't already thought of. I may agree with you that sometimes certain situations suck. Life IS hard, no denying that... But i doubt it will change my view on abortion because to me, it's a fundamental thing. To ME it is murdering an innocent child, and nothing with the rare exception of self-defense (if mom's health is at risk or whatever) can make that okay. For the same reason "regular" murder is outlawed and not okay, abortion is that to me... Do you not understand that? I know you don't AGREE with it, but can you not understand where i'm coming from there?
[/b]
Yes I understand that. In fact I said I understand where you are both coming from. You see it as murder and a child. I don't. Since you feel you are completely understanding to the pro-choice side but doubt anything I present will change your view, I guess it's easy to agree to disagree, is it not?
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  #40  
April 18th, 2007, 02:13 PM
Caeden&#39;sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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I understand where both of you are coming from.. I just wish I could some how show you both where opposing abortion and supporting those who oppose it, is forcing others in a harder position in so many ways.[/b]
Well, feel free to try and elaborate and show me that...

But to be honest, i HAVE thought about this issue more than you probably realize... So i doubt you're going to present some scenario i haven't already thought of. I may agree with you that sometimes certain situations suck. Life IS hard, no denying that... But i doubt it will change my view on abortion because to me, it's a fundamental thing. To ME it is murdering an innocent child, and nothing with the rare exception of self-defense (if mom's health is at risk or whatever) can make that okay. For the same reason "regular" murder is outlawed and not okay, abortion is that to me... Do you not understand that? I know you don't AGREE with it, but can you not understand where i'm coming from there?
[/b]
Yes I understand that. In fact I said I understand where you are both coming from. You see it as murder and a child. I don't. Since you feel you are completely understanding to the pro-choice side but doubt anything I present will change your view, I guess it's easy to agree to disagree, is it not?
[/b]
Well that IS why i said before you and i would have to agree to disagree... lol. Because you don't see it as a child, there's really not much else to say.
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