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Abortion Debate

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  #41  
April 18th, 2007, 03:49 PM
mrobinson
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Ok then..
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  #42  
April 18th, 2007, 04:36 PM
Caeden'sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Ok then..[/b]
What?
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  #43  
April 18th, 2007, 05:03 PM
mrobinson
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mrobinson @ Apr 18 2007, 11:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>
I understand where both of you are coming from.. I just wish I could some how show you both where opposing abortion and supporting those who oppose it, is forcing others in a harder position in so many ways.[/b]
Well, feel free to try and elaborate and show me that...

But to be honest, i HAVE thought about this issue more than you probably realize... So i doubt you're going to present some scenario i haven't already thought of. I may agree with you that sometimes certain situations suck. Life IS hard, no denying that... But i doubt it will change my view on abortion because to me, it's a fundamental thing. To ME it is murdering an innocent child, and nothing with the rare exception of self-defense (if mom's health is at risk or whatever) can make that okay. For the same reason "regular" murder is outlawed and not okay, abortion is that to me... Do you not understand that? I know you don't AGREE with it, but can you not understand where i'm coming from there?
[/b]
Yes I understand that. In fact I said I understand where you are both coming from. You see it as murder and a child. I don't. Since you feel you are completely understanding to the pro-choice side but doubt anything I present will change your view, I guess it's easy to agree to disagree, is it not?
[/b][/quote]

Well that IS why i said before you and i would have to agree to disagree... lol. Because you don't see it as a child, there's really not much else to say.
[/b][/quote]
I guess I just don't understand why the need to post this. We both agree to disagree, right?
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  #44  
April 18th, 2007, 07:35 PM
Caeden&#39;sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Caeden'sMama @ Apr 18 2007, 12:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>
Quote:
I understand where both of you are coming from.. I just wish I could some how show you both where opposing abortion and supporting those who oppose it, is forcing others in a harder position in so many ways.[/b]
Well, feel free to try and elaborate and show me that...

But to be honest, i HAVE thought about this issue more than you probably realize... So i doubt you're going to present some scenario i haven't already thought of. I may agree with you that sometimes certain situations suck. Life IS hard, no denying that... But i doubt it will change my view on abortion because to me, it's a fundamental thing. To ME it is murdering an innocent child, and nothing with the rare exception of self-defense (if mom's health is at risk or whatever) can make that okay. For the same reason "regular" murder is outlawed and not okay, abortion is that to me... Do you not understand that? I know you don't AGREE with it, but can you not understand where i'm coming from there?
[/b]
Yes I understand that. In fact I said I understand where you are both coming from. You see it as murder and a child. I don't. Since you feel you are completely understanding to the pro-choice side but doubt anything I present will change your view, I guess it's easy to agree to disagree, is it not?
[/b]
Well that IS why i said before you and i would have to agree to disagree... lol. Because you don't see it as a child, there's really not much else to say.
[/b][/quote]
I guess I just don't understand why the need to post this. We both agree to disagree, right?
[/b][/quote]

Er... Okay. I was just agreeing?

Wow, i'm lost now... hehe
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  #45  
April 19th, 2007, 01:07 PM
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I have a dear friend who had a fiance a few years back. Unplanned pregnacy tore them apart. He WANTED his baby, he begged and pleaded and cried and the whole 9...but his ex kept talking about she was not ready and didn't want stretch marks yet and a bunch of other stuff, some crazy sill and some more serious, but bottom line she told him her body- her choice....
But it was not HER baby...it was THEIR baby. He never forgave that woman and is still wounded by the loss to this day. seeing a personal friend go through that really opened my eyes that men are not just mindless devoid of soul ejaculators. They have feelings too and 1/2 CREATED the baby.

It is an unfair world...men have advantages over women and abortion is an advantage- if I can use such a word- where women have the ultimate say so and I do not always think that is right...



I never really understood how anyone could not see a fetus as a baby....that is exactly what it is it is just growing inside of the mom. If left alone it would be born (barring any unfortuante death or miscarry)

If something awful had happened to my baby in utero (sp?) I would have mourned my baby...not "collective cells growing inside me that is not yet a child or baby"

I dunno..I just have a hard time not thinking of a baby born or not as anythingother than a baby. The universal sign of life is a heart beat and once you end that heartbeat you have ended that life.
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  #46  
April 19th, 2007, 01:18 PM
mrobinson
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But it was not HER baby...it was THEIR baby. He never forgave that woman and is still wounded by the loss to this day. seeing a personal friend go through that really opened my eyes that men are not just mindless devoid of soul ejaculators. They have feelings too and 1/2 CREATED the baby.[/b]
I understand this is close to your heart and I'm sorry they ended up like that.. I don't think anyone who is pro-choice sees men as devoid of soul ejaculators.. Actually I see it differently in most cases, excluding your example. Women have to make a moral decision that effects three ~ her, the potential child and the father. By asking herself if by having an unplanned child is in it's best interest, and coming to the conclusion that it is in the child's best interest to not have it, she is aware that effects three. I know you're not implying it but women who face abortion are also not devoid of soul. They live with their decisions everyday. Some just accept they made the right decision while others constantly second-guess it. I'm sure this woman you speak of does daily.
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  #47  
April 19th, 2007, 01:42 PM
Caeden&#39;sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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I have a dear friend who had a fiance a few years back. Unplanned pregnacy tore them apart. He WANTED his baby, he begged and pleaded and cried and the whole 9...but his ex kept talking about she was not ready and didn't want stretch marks yet and a bunch of other stuff, some crazy sill and some more serious, but bottom line she told him her body- her choice....
But it was not HER baby...it was THEIR baby. He never forgave that woman and is still wounded by the loss to this day. seeing a personal friend go through that really opened my eyes that men are not just mindless devoid of soul ejaculators. They have feelings too and 1/2 CREATED the baby.

It is an unfair world...men have advantages over women and abortion is an advantage- if I can use such a word- where women have the ultimate say so and I do not always think that is right...



I never really understood how anyone could not see a fetus as a baby....that is exactly what it is it is just growing inside of the mom. If left alone it would be born (barring any unfortuante death or miscarry)

If something awful had happened to my baby in utero (sp?) I would have mourned my baby...not "collective cells growing inside me that is not yet a child or baby"

I dunno..I just have a hard time not thinking of a baby born or not as anythingother than a baby. The universal sign of life is a heart beat and once you end that heartbeat you have ended that life.[/b]
I completely agree with you... And i'm so sorry for your friend. That is terrible. And that is why i think it is horrible that the father should have NO say over HIS baby.
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  #48  
April 19th, 2007, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
I have a dear friend who had a fiance a few years back. Unplanned pregnacy tore them apart. He WANTED his baby, he begged and pleaded and cried and the whole 9...but his ex kept talking about she was not ready and didn't want stretch marks yet and a bunch of other stuff, some crazy sill and some more serious, but bottom line she told him her body- her choice....
But it was not HER baby...it was THEIR baby. He never forgave that woman and is still wounded by the loss to this day. seeing a personal friend go through that really opened my eyes that men are not just mindless devoid of soul ejaculators. They have feelings too and 1/2 CREATED the baby.

It is an unfair world...men have advantages over women and abortion is an advantage- if I can use such a word- where women have the ultimate say so and I do not always think that is right...



I never really understood how anyone could not see a fetus as a baby....that is exactly what it is it is just growing inside of the mom. If left alone it would be born (barring any unfortuante death or miscarry)

If something awful had happened to my baby in utero (sp?) I would have mourned my baby...not "collective cells growing inside me that is not yet a child or baby"

I dunno..I just have a hard time not thinking of a baby born or not as anythingother than a baby. The universal sign of life is a heart beat and once you end that heartbeat you have ended that life.[/b]
I completely agree with you... And i'm so sorry for your friend. That is terrible. And that is why i think it is horrible that the father should have NO say over HIS baby.
[/b]
I think this is unfortunate in that particular set of circumstances because he sounds like a nice guy.

But what about guys who AREN'T a nice guy? What about guys who intentionally get a woman pregnant just to control her or force her to stay with him when she doesn't want to (this happens too, it's not just women who get pregnant to trap guys). Guys like THAT are the reason I don't agree with dads having a say.
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  #49  
April 19th, 2007, 02:18 PM
mrobinson
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Like Jean-Guy Tremblay?
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  #50  
April 19th, 2007, 03:59 PM
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I think this is unfortunate in that particular set of circumstances because he sounds like a nice guy.

But what about guys who AREN'T a nice guy? What about guys who intentionally get a woman pregnant just to control her or force her to stay with him when she doesn't want to (this happens too, it's not just women who get pregnant to trap guys). Guys like THAT are the reason I don't agree with dads having a say.[/b]
What, by raping her? That's the only way the woman has NO control in getting pregnant. She controls having sex. She controls using birth control. She knows if she has sex, a baby may result... Dad not being a nice guy is not an excuse to kill the child...

I seriously don't get this! WHY does a woman have NO responsibility for herself?? We spend all this time saying how women are equal, and powerful, and not men's property. So why do we treat women as though they are helpless little slaves who oops! got pregnant! and have no control over their own actions, and therefore no need to own the consequences of them?!? URGH! (Sorry, little rant... i'm done now. )
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  #51  
April 19th, 2007, 09:32 PM
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WHY does a woman have NO responsibility for herself??[/b]
why is getting an abortion not taking reponsiblity.
Quote:
own the consequences of them?!?[/b]
A child should not be a punishment
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  #52  
April 20th, 2007, 04:06 PM
Caeden&#39;sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
WHY does a woman have NO responsibility for herself??[/b]
why is getting an abortion not taking reponsiblity.[/b][/quote]

Uhh... because, it's killing the child so you don't have to take responsibility for it.

Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
own the consequences of them?!?[/b]
A child should not be a punishment
[/b][/quote]

Nor should a child BE punished for your "mistakes".
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  #53  
April 20th, 2007, 04:14 PM
mrobinson
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Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
<div class='quotemain'>WHY does a woman have NO responsibility for herself??[/b]
why is getting an abortion not taking reponsiblity.[/b][/quote]

Uhh... because, it's killing the child so you don't have to take responsibility for it.[/b][/quote]
First, it's not a child yet. Secondly, a mom who does abort has the "child's" best interest at heart. She doesn't want it to go through hard times because of her own actions and mistakes.

Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
<div class='quotemain'>
own the consequences of them?!?[/b]
A child should not be a punishment
[/b][/quote]
Nor should a child BE punished for your "mistakes".
[/b][/quote]
By having it, it very well could be punished through neglect, lack of tools, lack of resources and necessity. Sometimes it's not in the child's best interest to be here.
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  #54  
April 20th, 2007, 05:25 PM
mommyKathyX3
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
<div class='quotemain'>WHY does a woman have NO responsibility for herself??[/b]
why is getting an abortion not taking reponsiblity.[/b]
Uhh... because, it's killing the child so you don't have to take responsibility for it.[/b][/quote]
First, it's not a child yet. Secondly, a mom who does abort has the "child's" best interest at heart. She doesn't want it to go through hard times because of her own actions and mistakes.


[/b][/quote]

Bolded is why I stepped away from this debate, and MOST abortion debates in general. You believe its not a child, me (and obviously Caedensmama) do. Its going to be a round and round cycle and I dont feel its worth it for me to keep saying the same things over and over. ya know?
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  #55  
April 20th, 2007, 05:51 PM
Caeden&#39;sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
<div class='quotemain'>WHY does a woman have NO responsibility for herself??[/b]
why is getting an abortion not taking reponsiblity.[/b]
Uhh... because, it's killing the child so you don't have to take responsibility for it.[/b][/quote]
First, it's not a child yet. Secondly, a mom who does abort has the "child's" best interest at heart. She doesn't want it to go through hard times because of her own actions and mistakes.[/b][/quote]

Well, i think it IS a child, but again... we have to agree to disagree on that point. But can you please tell me how being DEAD is in a person's best interests? Never even given a CHANCE at life? That's better than going through "hard times"??

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
<div class='quotemain'>
own the consequences of them?!?[/b]
A child should not be a punishment
[/b]
Nor should a child BE punished for your "mistakes".
[/b][/quote]
By having it, it very well could be punished through neglect, lack of tools, lack of resources and necessity. Sometimes it's not in the child's best interest to be here.
[/b][/quote]

I don't buy that for a second... And again, if the situation is that bad where the child is going to suffer, mom can always give them up for adoption, where they WILL most likely have a good, loving family. So again... how is death better?
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  #56  
April 20th, 2007, 11:50 PM
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Not a single "father's rights" advocate has so much as suggested a way in which thier plan to give fathers rights would work. Please someone suggest to me a workable way..... in a world where abortion IS and will remain a legal medical procedure....."father's rights" can be plausable. PLEASE!!!!!!

I have already explained that a father can not establish rights until AFTER birth. ONLY after birth can a man become a legal father with legal rights and legal responsibilities. Men don't pay child support to women for 12 week old embryo's now do they??

Fathers have rights and responsibilities to CHILDREN who are LEGAL PERSONS and citizens. A father ONLY gains those rights AFTER the child has been born, The child has been issued a BIRTH cert listing him as the legal father and therefore establishing paternity, and a custody/visitation schedule (for unwed fathers) has been established through the courts.

On the off chance that posters have [impossible] solutions to the other two issues and believe that a man should be given rights to an unborn fetous/ebryro who has no legal rights, has no birth cert, and is not a citizen or a legal person......there is the issue of verifying paternity in utero. How would one do this? How do you determine who the biological "father"(one ONLY becomes a legal father after birth/paternity so he is no and can not yet be a father fyi) of a 6 week old embryo is? I already stated that the courts would value the HEALTH and LIFE of the mother and her rights NOT to endure an invasive procedure agianst her will as greater than his rights to establish paternity. So what? A man makes a claim that he is the biological "father" of a embryo and wants to prevent abortion - can't do a paternity test - there is no possible physical way to determine if he is infact truley the biological "father" of the embryo or fetous in the courts. He wouldn't have a claim. Because he can not verify paternity his case for preventing the aboriton (should such a thing be possible) would tossed out....there would be no evidence that he was a biological "father" and the courts couldn't give him rights with out first establishing paternity which would first require the child to be born.....which isin't going to happen if the mothr gets an abortion.

Some might say just make all aboriton illegal.....well this isin't reality. In the world we live in Abortion in a medical decision which is viable and legal.....so in this situation how do you suggest that men have "rights".

How would a man prevent a woman from getting an abortion? By force? Isin't that a violation of her persal freedoms? If he can force her into one medical procedure (birth) then by logic he would ALSO be granted the right to force her into another medical procedure (abortion).
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  #57  
April 20th, 2007, 11:55 PM
Caeden&#39;sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Not a single "father's rights" advocate has so much as suggested a way in which thier plan to give fathers rights would work. Please someone suggest to me a workable way..... in a world where abortion IS and will remain a legal medical procedure....."father's rights" can be plausable. PLEASE!!!!!!

I have already explained that a father can not establish rights until AFTER birth. ONLY after birth can a man become a legal father with legal rights and legal responsibilities. Men don't pay child support to women for 12 week old embryo's now do they??

Fathers have rights and responsibilities to CHILDREN who are LEGAL PERSONS and citizens. A father ONLY gains those rights AFTER the child has been born, The child has been issued a BIRTH cert listing him as the legal father and therefore establishing paternity, and a custody/visitation schedule (for unwed fathers) has been established through the courts.

On the off chance that posters have [impossible] solutions to the other two issues and believe that a man should be given rights to an unborn fetous/ebryro who has no legal rights, has no birth cert, and is not a citizen or a legal person......there is the issue of verifying paternity in utero. How would one do this? How do you determine who the biological "father"(one ONLY becomes a legal father after birth/paternity so he is no and can not yet be a father fyi) of a 6 week old embryo is? I already stated that the courts would value the HEALTH and LIFE of the mother and her rights NOT to endure an invasive procedure agianst her will as greater than his rights to establish paternity. So what? A man makes a claim that he is the biological "father" of a embryo and wants to prevent abortion - can't do a paternity test - there is no possible physical way to determine if he is infact truley the biological "father" of the embryo or fetous in the courts. He wouldn't have a claim. Because he can not verify paternity his case for preventing the aboriton (should such a thing be possible) would tossed out....there would be no evidence that he was a biological "father" and the courts couldn't give him rights with out first establishing paternity which would first require the child to be born.....which isin't going to happen if the mothr gets an abortion.

Some might say just make all aboriton illegal.....well this isin't reality. In the world we live in Abortion in a medical decision which is viable and legal.....so in this situation how do you suggest that men have "rights".

How would a man prevent a woman from getting an abortion? By force? Isin't that a violation of her persal freedoms? If he can force her into one medical procedure (birth) then by logic he would ALSO be granted the right to force her into another medical procedure (abortion).[/b]
Well, since i DO think abortion should be illegal except for health cases, i don't think i can give you the answer you're looking for...

Oh, and i'm an optimist, i guess... i DON'T think abortions will be legal forever. But that's just me
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  #58  
April 21st, 2007, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Quote:
Not a single "father's rights" advocate has so much as suggested a way in which thier plan to give fathers rights would work. Please someone suggest to me a workable way..... in a world where abortion IS and will remain a legal medical procedure....."father's rights" can be plausable. PLEASE!!!!!!

I have already explained that a father can not establish rights until AFTER birth. ONLY after birth can a man become a legal father with legal rights and legal responsibilities. Men don't pay child support to women for 12 week old embryo's now do they??

Fathers have rights and responsibilities to CHILDREN who are LEGAL PERSONS and citizens. A father ONLY gains those rights AFTER the child has been born, The child has been issued a BIRTH cert listing him as the legal father and therefore establishing paternity, and a custody/visitation schedule (for unwed fathers) has been established through the courts.

On the off chance that posters have [impossible] solutions to the other two issues and believe that a man should be given rights to an unborn fetous/ebryro who has no legal rights, has no birth cert, and is not a citizen or a legal person......there is the issue of verifying paternity in utero. How would one do this? How do you determine who the biological "father"(one ONLY becomes a legal father after birth/paternity so he is no and can not yet be a father fyi) of a 6 week old embryo is? I already stated that the courts would value the HEALTH and LIFE of the mother and her rights NOT to endure an invasive procedure agianst her will as greater than his rights to establish paternity. So what? A man makes a claim that he is the biological "father" of a embryo and wants to prevent abortion - can't do a paternity test - there is no possible physical way to determine if he is infact truley the biological "father" of the embryo or fetous in the courts. He wouldn't have a claim. Because he can not verify paternity his case for preventing the aboriton (should such a thing be possible) would tossed out....there would be no evidence that he was a biological "father" and the courts couldn't give him rights with out first establishing paternity which would first require the child to be born.....which isin't going to happen if the mothr gets an abortion.

Some might say just make all aboriton illegal.....well this isin't reality. In the world we live in Abortion in a medical decision which is viable and legal.....so in this situation how do you suggest that men have "rights".

How would a man prevent a woman from getting an abortion? By force? Isin't that a violation of her persal freedoms? If he can force her into one medical procedure (birth) then by logic he would ALSO be granted the right to force her into another medical procedure (abortion).[/b]
Well, since i DO think abortion should be illegal except for health cases, i don't think i can give you the answer you're looking for...

Oh, and i'm an optimist, i guess... i DON'T think abortions will be legal forever. But that's just me
[/b]
Well, that is something to look forward to. Women dying by the dozens trying to perform abortions on themselves or having them done illlegally. That way, not only will the fetus die, but so will those horrible monsters that are wanting the abortions. Abortion will be illegal and women who want them will die trying to have them, that is a bright side, definitely something to be optimistic about.
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  #59  
April 21st, 2007, 08:43 AM
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I think this is unfortunate in that particular set of circumstances because he sounds like a nice guy.

But what about guys who AREN'T a nice guy? What about guys who intentionally get a woman pregnant just to control her or force her to stay with him when she doesn't want to (this happens too, it's not just women who get pregnant to trap guys). Guys like THAT are the reason I don't agree with dads having a say.[/b]
What, by raping her? That's the only way the woman has NO control in getting pregnant. She controls having sex. She controls using birth control. She knows if she has sex, a baby may result... [/b]
If she is in an abusive relationship, she is NOT in control of the situation. A regular relationship, sure she is in control. In a regular relationship your wishes to have sex or not are respected. In an abusive relationship, she is not in control. Someone else makes the decisions about birth control for instance (some guys REFUSE to wear protection). Someone else makes the decisions about when you have sex and how. The woman is emotionally beaten down so much at this point she may just go along due to learned helplessness. If she is raped, she won't report it. And maybe she isn't actually raped but she just thinks it is her duty to do whatever this man tells her to do, because she has totally lost her own identity at that point.
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  #60  
April 21st, 2007, 11:03 AM
Caeden&#39;sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Oh, and i'm an optimist, i guess... i DON'T think abortions will be legal forever. But that's just me [/b]
Well, that is something to look forward to. Women dying by the dozens trying to perform abortions on themselves or having them done illlegally. That way, not only will the fetus die, but so will those horrible monsters that are wanting the abortions. Abortion will be illegal and women who want them will die trying to have them, that is a bright side, definitely something to be optimistic about.
[/b]
Well, not to be mean... But a woman CHOOSES to undergo an illegal abortion. No one is forcing that on her. She can still either raise her baby or give it up for adoption. If she dies it's sad, yes... but no one's fault but her own.


Quote:
Quote:
Quote:

I think this is unfortunate in that particular set of circumstances because he sounds like a nice guy.

But what about guys who AREN'T a nice guy? What about guys who intentionally get a woman pregnant just to control her or force her to stay with him when she doesn't want to (this happens too, it's not just women who get pregnant to trap guys). Guys like THAT are the reason I don't agree with dads having a say.[/b]
What, by raping her? That's the only way the woman has NO control in getting pregnant. She controls having sex. She controls using birth control. She knows if she has sex, a baby may result... [/b]
If she is in an abusive relationship, she is NOT in control of the situation. A regular relationship, sure she is in control. In a regular relationship your wishes to have sex or not are respected. In an abusive relationship, she is not in control. Someone else makes the decisions about birth control for instance (some guys REFUSE to wear protection). Someone else makes the decisions about when you have sex and how. The woman is emotionally beaten down so much at this point she may just go along due to learned helplessness. If she is raped, she won't report it. And maybe she isn't actually raped but she just thinks it is her duty to do whatever this man tells her to do, because she has totally lost her own identity at that point.
[/b]
Well, she CAN still get on birth control. The guy wouldn't even have to know. But yes, if she's being abused and forced to have sex, that falls under the rape category. It's a terrible situation, but if she's so beaten down she can't even decide whether to have sex or use birth control, then wouldn't she also be so beaten down that the guy is going to have the final say in whether she gets an abortion or not anyway? So it doesn't matter whether he has a say legally or not, since she would obviously just go along with it no matter what... right?
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