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Partial Birth abortion ruling


Abortion Debate

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  #81  
April 19th, 2007, 11:24 AM
eash's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,969
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Yes, all abortions are wrong, but not all are inhumane. (IMO) Inhumane would be causing pain and suffering in an unnessesary manner.[/b]
I don't agree. As a woman who had an abortion to save my life, I don't understand how it can be thought of as wrong. Not trying to make this (or take this) personal but how is the choice to save a mother's life over the death of both the fetus and mother, wrong? I truly don't understand the logic in casting blame or placing a moral compass on a choice to save one's life.
[/b]
Ectopic pregnancies are placed in the same category as "mothers health" and is allowable. You could have died, and there was no chance of that baby serviving, so its a completly different matter. I'm sorry for any woman to have to go through a eptopic pregnany.
[/b]
I am not picking on you in particular but my point is that across this debate and others I have read -
"all abortions are wrong"
"all abortions are murder"
Etc, etc, etc.
What many people have to realize is that many many many abortions are performed to save a woman's life. You are not given a choice what "type" of abortion you have. You are given the option of surgery and living or not. The women who have abortions for medical reasons deserve empathy and respect, not moral judgement. They understand what a partial birth abortion is and I am sure it haunts them every single day of their life. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
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  #82  
April 19th, 2007, 11:38 AM
Tofu Bacon
Guest
Posts: n/a
I get that the heart of the issue is that the ban will encroach upon the rights women had already been given decades ago...but I just can't get past this:

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"The procedure at issue involves partially removing the fetus intact from a woman's uterus, then crushing or cutting its skull to complete the abortion."[/b]
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  #83  
April 19th, 2007, 11:42 AM
mommyKathyX3
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Posts: n/a
That is why situations like yours I feel bad for the mother, I dont critisize them. I dont even feel they had a "choice" to choose. Its not about quality of life, or inconvinience, or loosing a job, or not providing for your child, or whatever some people say are reasons for abortions, yours and others like you are given situations where its a matter of literal life or death. Its not even the same category for me. If someone was putting a gun to my head and they said if you dont kill them first, then they will kill you, I will try my darnedest to kill them. Its my life or thiers, and I dont mean quality of life I mean actual life.
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  #84  
April 19th, 2007, 12:10 PM
CBMS
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Posts: n/a
Quote:
you seeing this as unnecessary is the problem. It is necessary and criminalizing a medically needed procedure to help doctor's give a woman the best medical care shouldn't be disputed. Doctors have ethics and feel this procedure is medically necessary to help give patient the best care. By restricting this, you are increasing women's complication rates.[/b]
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(5) However, substantial evidence presented at the Stenberg trial and overwhelming evidence presented and compiled at extensive congressional hearings, much of which was compiled after the district court hearing in Stenberg, and thus not included in the Stenberg trial record, demonstrates that a partial-birth abortion is never necessary to preserve the health of a woman, poses significant health risks to a woman upon whom the procedure is performed and is outside the standard of medical care.[/b]

eashley--your situation is completely different. Your baby never could have grown into a stage of viability before killing you. That's way different. Your body wouldn't have gotten so far as to have a baby that could live outside and seperate from you--that happens at about the 20 week mark; no way an ectopic could get that far!
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  #85  
April 19th, 2007, 12:31 PM
mrobinson
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
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(5) However, substantial evidence presented at the Stenberg trial and overwhelming evidence presented and compiled at extensive congressional hearings, much of which was compiled after the district court hearing in Stenberg, and thus not included in the Stenberg trial record, demonstrates that a partial-birth abortion is never necessary to preserve the health of a woman, poses significant health risks to a woman upon whom the procedure is performed and is outside the standard of medical care.[/b]
[/b][/quote]

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Medical Reasons For Partial-Birth Abortions

Medical conditions and indications may develop after the first trimester (12 weeks) of pregnancy that could threaten the mother's life and/or health. Late-occurring medical conditions can include:

-- Heart failure
-- Severe or uncontrollable diabetes
-- Serious renal disease
-- Uncontrollable hypertension (high blood pressure)
-- Severe depression


Medical conditions of the fetus may become known or could develop after the first trimester of pregnancy, such as severe deformities and genetic disorders, which may cause the woman to seek an abortion.


Common Logistical and Personal Reasons for Partial Birth Abortions

-- Lack or lack of recognition of pregnancy symptoms, particularly by adolescents
-- Inability to afford a first trimester abortion
-- Inability to locate medical assistance during first trimester (due to lack of local medical professionals)
-- Lack of financial resources, emotional support, and/or partner[/b]
source

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Dilation & Extraction procedures are called D&X, Intact D&X, and Intrauterine cranial decompression. The non-medical terms: PBA and Partial-birth Abortions are commonly used by the public.

Meanwhile, some of those who wanted a law to permit D&Xs, whenever needed to prevent very serious harm or disability to the woman, appeared either unintelligent, misinformed or unethical. Some examples:

Data on numbers of D&Xs performed in the U.S. were hopelessly distorted by both sides.
Some experts testifying about the fetus' ability to feel pain appear to have knowingly lied under oath.
The reasons why D&Xs are performed were often hopelessly distorted.
The proposed legislation and amendments were consistently misrepresented: The bill was described as not permitting a D&X, even if required to save the life of the woman.
Amendments to the bill were described as allowing D&Xs for any vague, mild health reason.

The timing and wording of the bills seemed to have less to do with restricting the procedure and everything to do with creating a weapon that could be useful to clobber the other party in election campaigns.
Most of the state laws to restrict D&X abortions are so generally worded that they could be used to ban even first trimester abortions. They are clearly unconstitutional and did not withstand a challenge in court. Pro-choice groups obtained three injunctions to prevent the federal anti-D&X law from being enforced.[/b]
source
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  #86  
April 19th, 2007, 12:32 PM
eash's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,969
Quote:
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you seeing this as unnecessary is the problem. It is necessary and criminalizing a medically needed procedure to help doctor's give a woman the best medical care shouldn't be disputed. Doctors have ethics and feel this procedure is medically necessary to help give patient the best care. By restricting this, you are increasing women's complication rates.[/b]
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(5) However, substantial evidence presented at the Stenberg trial and overwhelming evidence presented and compiled at extensive congressional hearings, much of which was compiled after the district court hearing in Stenberg, and thus not included in the Stenberg trial record, demonstrates that a partial-birth abortion is never necessary to preserve the health of a woman, poses significant health risks to a woman upon whom the procedure is performed and is outside the standard of medical care.[/b]

eashley--your situation is completely different. Your baby never could have grown into a stage of viability before killing you. That's way different. Your body wouldn't have gotten so far as to have a baby that could live outside and seperate from you--that happens at about the 20 week mark; no way an ectopic could get that far!
[/b]
Thanks for the support.
I didn't tell my story to elicity sympathy (but appreciate it) but rather make the point that when people use the term "all" in definining abortions, they run the risk of including situations like mine. All abortions are not wrong, all abortions are not evil, etc. etc. etc..
The same goes for women who "choose" partial birth abortion, the vast majority are not going down that road because they want to but rather need to so that they can live.
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  #87  
April 19th, 2007, 12:44 PM
Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,780
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The same goes for women who "choose" partial birth abortion, the vast majority are not going down that road because they want to but rather need to so that they can live.[/b]
The ban is not going to affect women who have partial birth abortions for reasons that have to do with the mother's life.

It's only going to affect women who have partial birth abortions for NON-medical reasons. These won't be allowed anymore. I just don't see the problem.

Those who really NEED the procedure will still be able to get it.
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  #88  
April 19th, 2007, 12:46 PM
mrobinson
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Posts: n/a
Quote:
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The same goes for women who "choose" partial birth abortion, the vast majority are not going down that road because they want to but rather need to so that they can live.[/b]
The ban is not going to affect women who have partial birth abortions for reasons that have to do with the mother's life.

It's only going to affect women who have partial birth abortions for NON-medical reasons. These won't be allowed anymore. I just don't see the problem.

Those who really NEED the procedure will still be able to get it.
[/b]
If the better medical choice was to use partial birth abortions, we are increasing the chance of women having complications by not allowing it in all cases. People are assuming it's not medically necessary yet are not doctors.
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  #89  
April 19th, 2007, 03:56 PM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 34
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"The procedure at issue involves partially removing the fetus intact from a woman's uterus, then crushing or cutting its skull to complete the abortion."
Why not just deliver the baby at that point? It makes me sick to my stomach.[/b]
exactly!

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babies: How would you feel if politicians forced women to breastfeed and outlawed formula?[/b]
tHEN WE WOULD JUST BE LIKE OUR ANCESTORS WHO ONLY BREASTFED AND NOT BOTTLE FED.WE ARE ALL HERE AND THE GENERATIONS BEFORE FORMULA SURVIVED, OBVIOUSLY

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
<div class='quotemain'>At any rate, if doctors think a partial abortion is in the best interest of the patient, and the patient agrees why should politicans be making policies that contradict doctor's recommendations? Imagine if we outlawed epi's because natural births were more along the lines of what politicians wanted. It's crazy to have politics take over where medical procedures should be or not be taking place.[/b]
What about the best interest of the fully developed baby that is already capable of living outside the womb? It shouldn't be acceptable unless the mother would die from continuing the pregnancy. Just because she wakes up one day, at 30 weeks and realizes that she's scared to death to be a mother... she's going to have her baby ripped apart, limb by limb? What about THAT patient? If it's not life and death, then it shouldn't be allowed. I think the ruling is right on.
[/b][/quote]

((It's so hard to debate this. I feel like you aren't answering any of the questions I asked and because you see the fetus as a child, it's pointless to debate.))

How are we assuming it's a fully developed child capable of living outside the womb? Why assume at 30 weeks is when this is done? Why disregard the doctor's recommendations about the best way to remove the fetus?
[/b][/quote]Look it up on the net and you will find that at 30 weeks pretty much all babies would survive at that point and be about 3 lbs.!


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What about the best interest of the fully developed baby that is already capable of living outside the womb? It shouldn't be acceptable unless the mother would die from continuing the pregnancy. Just because she wakes up one day, at 30 weeks and realizes that she's scared to death to be a mother... she's going to have her baby ripped apart, limb by limb? What about THAT patient? If it's not life and death, then it shouldn't be allowed. I think the ruling is right on.[/b]
I agree!
This procedure is just horrifying, and should only be used if the mother would die otherwise.

Outlawing this one procedure is not going to impact a woman's right to choose. Early abortions that do not use this procedure are still legal.
[/b]
I don't get this partial birth abortion thing because the baby has to be delivered anyways so why not let them live instead of killing them.They are innocent little victims and if the mother could die then at least let the baby live.

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Because at 30 weeks (EVEN MUCH EARLIER!!! I have twin cousins that were born at 22 weeks! They were each only about a pound!), a baby can survive outside the womb. They need a respirator for their lungs for a little while, but heck... there are lots of people that need that occasionally. That doesn't mean you deserve to be ripped apart and killed...[/b]
Here we go.. This is the problem. You are assume it's healthy babies. This procedure is rarely done that late and is usually done because something is drastically wrong with the fetus.

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Specifically, the ban encompasses what doctors call "intact dilation and evacuation" (also known as IDX), which Congress in its legislation termed inhumane.[/b]
Source

This is politicans putting their political view's on women's bodies.
[/b]
No, this is politicians putting their views on the babies bodies.

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Because at 30 weeks (EVEN MUCH EARLIER!!! I have twin cousins that were born at 22 weeks! They were each only about a pound!), a baby can survive outside the womb. They need a respirator for their lungs for a little while, but heck... there are lots of people that need that occasionally. That doesn't mean you deserve to be ripped apart and killed...[/b]
Here we go.. This is the problem. You are assume it's healthy babies. This procedure is rarely done that late and is usually done because something is drastically wrong with the fetus.

Quote:
Specifically, the ban encompasses what doctors call "intact dilation and evacuation" (also known as IDX), which Congress in its legislation termed inhumane.[/b]
Source

This is politicans putting their political view's on women's bodies.
[/b]
No, this is politicians putting their views on the babies bodies.Someone in power has to speak up for the innocent unborn.
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  #90  
April 19th, 2007, 06:47 PM
CBMS
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Posts: n/a
Quote:
Medical Reasons For Partial-Birth Abortions

Medical conditions and indications may develop after the first trimester (12 weeks) of pregnancy that could threaten the mother's life and/or health. Late-occurring medical conditions can include:

-- Heart failure
-- Severe or uncontrollable diabetes
-- Serious renal disease
-- Uncontrollable hypertension (high blood pressure)
-- Severe depression

Medical conditions of the fetus may become known or could develop after the first trimester of pregnancy, such as severe deformities and genetic disorders, which may cause the woman to seek an abortion.[/b]

UM... all of those are situations that if the mother is oh... say 21 or so weeks along... THE BABY MAY LIVE! Why have it's brains sucked out into a sink when they can give birth and save BOTH the mother and the baby?!


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Common Logistical and Personal Reasons for Partial Birth Abortions

-- Lack or lack of recognition of pregnancy symptoms, particularly by adolescents[/b]
It's been a while, but even when I was an adolescent, I knew that a missed period meant possibly pregnant. I think I learned that in fifth grade.

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-- Inability to afford a first trimester abortion[/b]
So magically, someone who couldn't come up with the 250-450 can somehow put together 1500 for a partial birth abortion? How's that work?

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-- Inability to locate medical assistance during first trimester (due to lack of local medical professionals)[/b]
It's called the health department. I learned that in about sixth grade...

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-- Lack of financial resources, emotional support, and/or partner[/b]
Perhaps they should seek the LEGAL, first term abortion?
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  #91  
April 19th, 2007, 07:57 PM
Cereal Killer's Avatar I'm climbin' in yo window
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: next to Chuck Norris
Posts: 7,373
[quote]
Quote:
Common Logistical and Personal Reasons for Partial Birth Abortions

-- Lack or lack of recognition of pregnancy symptoms, particularly by adolescents
Quote:
It's been a while, but even when I was an adolescent, I knew that a missed period meant possibly pregnant. I think I learned that in fifth grade.
I am glad you went to a school that taught that. There are many schools, however, that do not have suitable sexual education instruction. I remember thinking that you could not get pregnant the first time. Also, I have always had very irregular periods. To this day, I may go months without having one. (as a matter of fact, I have not had one since I found out I was pregnant with DS.)

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-- Inability to locate medical assistance during first trimester (due to lack of local medical professionals)
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It's called the health department. I learned that in about sixth grade...
I didn't know about the function of the health department until I was in college. I had heard of it, but had no idea what it's purpose was. I found out when there was a Hep C quarantine in one of the dining halls.

I think it is great that some people had this wealth of information and support, but it does not automatically mean it is the case for the rest of the population. I think many would be amazed at how many women haven't the first clue about the reproductive functions (ie ovulation, etc), it really is not all that uncommon. Just until recently, I thought every woman ovulated around the 15th day after your period ended (thanks public school system). This decision is between a woman and her doctor. Being called "elective" does not mean, necessarily, that a woman decided at 22 weeks gestation she wanted out. Elective just indicates the woman chose to abort.
edit for stupid quotes.
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  #92  
April 19th, 2007, 08:08 PM
Mega Super Mommy
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: ohio
Posts: 3,657
I've been walking around SOOOOOOOOO angry that this is a bill. What happens if you got the money together and found out your further along then you thought? Or it took a couple of months to get the money together? Honestly I'm still to mad to debate this. Sorry Michelle . I'll come back with facts not just stories. Everyone does realize it does not have a point of viability So it can be used at 13 week. 13 weeks would not be able to survive.
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  #93  
April 20th, 2007, 05:06 AM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 34
If they are going to deliver the baby anyways, then they should just give birth and have the baby anyways.It does NOT make sense to murder( and yes with a partial birth abortion you have to admit that it is murder) the baby. What is the difference if the baby is birthed dead or alive? What does that have to do with the mother's health? Like I said, the baby is going to coming out anyways so why not just let them live instead of killing them? It is so sick.
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  #94  
April 20th, 2007, 06:13 AM
Platinum Supermommy
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,120
Personally, I hate the thought of any abortion performed past 6 weeks...whether ot not there should be laws preventing this...I haven't come to a personal conclusion on that . I think that there is a difference between an embryo being aborted and a fully formed child. A 6 week old embryo has no congative awareness of what is happening to them, no pain is felt, it is humane. A partial birth abortion-or any other later stage abortion, is not a humane procedure. You cannot tell me that a baby (or fetus-whatever you want to call it) has no awareness of what is going on, and cannot feel pain at that point. I know that there are people out there who disagree and who think that a womans rights should always trump the rights of her unborn baby (fetus) but personally I believe that after a certain point-their right to life is equal. Certainly at the point of viability.

That said, while I am against elective late term and partial birth abortions, there are medical curcumstances where partial birth abortions are necessary, and in reality the SAFEST way for a woman to end a pregnancy. Severe hydrocephaly, for example, results in severe fluid build up in the skull, and a baby who's head is abnormally enlarged-in some cases the size of a one year old child. In this case, vaginal delivery is impossible and a c-section will more than likely result in a hystorectamy. So in this situation, as the baby is for all intents and purposes brain dead, I feel like a PBA should be an available option. In any case I feel this is ultimately a descision to be made by a woman and her doctor NOT a politician.


Personally I don't see the moral, ethical or legal distinction between the various methods of abortion. They all involve a death-and lets face it, a violent one. If they are truly worried about doctors killing babies who can live on their own outside the womb, then put a date limit on abortion (i.e. no abortions after X weeks of pregnancy). Limiting the methods available to doctors just limits their freedom to choose the most appropriate method for the circumstances. I think this ban is nothing more than a political strategy-just a means to set the wheels in motion to ban abortion all together.
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