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Abortion Debate

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  #21  
April 23rd, 2007, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
I think Samu's story is a wonderful example of how abortion is a much more complicated issue than people sometimes realize. The decision to continue with, or abort, a pregnancy affects more people than just the mother and the embry, fetus, unborn child, etc.

Personally I would never suggest a mother sacrifice her mental or physical health for a pregnancy. Nor do I think it's a good idea to risk the health/future of the children who have already been born. Children, especially special needs children, need a mother and a stable enviornment more than they need a sibling.

I'm not trying to minimize the importance of the future child Samu would be carrying in this scenario, I just think a mother's first responsibility is to her already born family. Where would her children be if she killed herself or ended up in a mental institution? In both scenarios the whole family suffers. In the first the children are PERMANETLY deprived of their mother and the potential baby dies anyway. In the second she's still in no position to take care of her family. Who knows how long it would take for her to recover?

Yes people should take all measures to avoid a pregnancy when in this sort of situation. I think the point Samu was trying to make is that accidents can happen no matter how careful we try to be. Condoms fail, birth control fails, even rarely vasectomies and tubal ligations. Asking two people to never have sex just isn't realistic. In those sort of situations I think abortion would actually preserve life for the greatest amount of people.[/b]
THANK YOU.

I was starting to think I was crazy for putting my life and born childrens life before a fetus

The bolded is what I mean when I think some people are more pro FETUS than pro life. They would rather risk my life and my kids happiness for a fetus. OK the fetus may get to live,but what about me? what about my boys future? You can't call yourself pro life while expecting/wanting/telling a mother that she should just suck it up and go ahead with a pregnancy that could kill her and have a massive affect on her children's life.
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  #23  
April 23rd, 2007, 10:19 AM
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FTR, I also have OCD, so I know how devastating it can be. But I still do not agree with abortion. People can (or rather, SHOULD) recieve all the necessary support in the world for their issues

You know how devastating YOUR OCD is,not mine. I mean that with no disrespect,there are days where I can not get out of the house,I get intrusive thoughts too,I do not have OCD with cleaning,hand washing,contamination and the most common ones I get intrusive thoughts too which is also a form of paranoia. I do not know about your OCD but everyone sufferers with the same mental illness differently. I do not get the part why people can not understand that I would NEED to be heavily medicated and I wouldn't be able to in pregnancy without massive risks to the fetuses life. I can't go and just get counselling or therapy,when I am having a bad time I need meds to even get out of my bedroom.

E ARE ALL JUST A BIG CLUMP OF CELLS. Why do you have to use that 'term' when it has been pointed out that it is offensive? Why would you just go out of your way and do that? I don't get that. It isn't a correct statement, unless you apply it to ALL LIVING ORGANISMS (including yourself and your born children).

Before this thread it was never pointed out to me that it was offensive.
Ill tell you why I will not stop using that word:

I will not stop using it because I do not find it offensive,I am not one to sugar coat my words on a debate board in case some gets offended by them. I get offended by a lot on here but I do not tell others what they can or can't say. I can ask them,explain to them why I find it offensive,but I have no right to expect they change their use of words for me.

On a debate board there is potential for many people to be offended. Sorry if that sounds hard arsed but saying I think something is a clump of cells is not offensive. It is the truth,we ALL start off as cells,everything does,what is so wrong with pointing out that fetues in the very early stages are clumps of cells. Their brains are not formed,they can not feel,they can not think because they are not yet fully formed,they are a bunch of cells,like it or not it is the truth.

I would be devestated if I miscarried any of my children,Me saying it is a bunch of cells does not mean I didn't love my fetus from day one,it did not mean I do not cry my eyes out for people who miscarry but I do not find a fetus that isn't even fully formed as important as my children TO ME.

We are obviously not going to agree on this.

BTW,could you please stop saying that a fetus is equal to my children? I find that very offensive! I think you should stop saying that now I am being sarcastic,see what I mean though? If I find it offensive and others do too should we expect you not to say that?



Quote:
Also, I provided the articles from credible medical journals, yet you just dismiss them and come back with an "oh, I don't care" type of attitude. If the medical community cannot come to an absolute decision, WHY TAKE THE RISK?????????
[/b]
Why? Because I either take the risk,which is a low one,that my fetus may feel the pain or I take the HIGH risk that my health will fail putting my life at danger and my childrens.

I weigh up the risks,the risks of me getting dangerously ill is higher than the risk that a fetus feels pain. I should risk my health,my kids happiness just in case a fetus can feel?
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  #24  
April 23rd, 2007, 01:14 PM
donomama
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Sam - I think you've worded this question so perfectly that pro-lifers can't really answer that. The way you have set us up, we either answer the question honestly and look like a completely heartless human being, or we lie, tell you what you want to hear and look like hypocrites.

If it would be that devastating to you to be pregnant, get a tubal and a vasectomy (you and your boyfriend). I believe that when you have sex, you are accepting the risks that come with it, be it an STD or an unwanted pregnancy. If you can't handle it, you should take every precaution that you can, and if you still fall pregnant or get an STD, you accept that responsibility.
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  #25  
April 23rd, 2007, 01:42 PM
mrobinson
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Quote:
I was starting to think I was crazy for putting my life and born childrens life before a fetus[/b]
That's what many people would like you to believe. I personally think that's why PASS is as bad as it is.

Quote:
If it would be that devastating to you to be pregnant, get a tubal and a vasectomy (you and your boyfriend). I believe that when you have sex, you are accepting the risks that come with it, be it an STD or an unwanted pregnancy. If you can't handle it, you should take every precaution that you can, and if you still fall pregnant or get an STD, you accept that responsibility.[/b]
I actually know a couple who both had that done and still got pregnant! So even though every precaution was taken, it's still seen as irresponsible to some people.

Quote:
Sam - I think you've worded this question so perfectly that pro-lifers can't really answer that. The way you have set us up, we either answer the question honestly and look like a completely heartless human being, or we lie, tell you what you want to hear and look like hypocrites.[/b]
That's why abortion is about empathy and understanding.. It's a larger picture than just murdering babies. (I know you haven't specifically said that but others do regularly.) People don't see the many what-if senerios that abortion is.
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  #26  
April 23rd, 2007, 02:10 PM
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Sam - I think you've worded this question so perfectly that pro-lifers can't really answer that. The way you have set us up, we either answer the question honestly and look like a completely heartless human being, or we lie, tell you what you want to hear and look like hypocrites.

Well if you think that you answering honestly would make you look heartless maybe you (general you) need to take a deeper look at WHY it would sound heartless?

That is WHY I posted this,to try to show some people that it isn't that simple,and if you think it is,it may well be because you DO lack compassion when it comes to this.

get a tubal and a vasectomy (you and your boyfriend)

No,I will not get a tubal The V and the IUD will suffice.

I actually know a couple who both had that done and still got pregnant! So even though every precaution was taken, it's still seen as irresponsible to some people.

Ayup. If someone is safe and still gets pregnant then they should suck up the consequences no matter how much it affects other people. I guess I should never have sex again,just in case I fall pregnant while using two forms of birth control.
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  #28  
April 23rd, 2007, 04:09 PM
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I think a lot of people do look at abortion in terms of the fetus and mother being equal. The problem is that doesn't really pan out in reality. That sort of situation actually means that the fetus is placed higher than the mother because the woman has to go through the emotional and physical stress of a pregnancy. Particuarly in a scenario like this. By telling a woman that she is supposed to sacrifice her mental health to continue the pregnancy, you are actually putting the life of the fetus above hers.

If there was a way to remove the potential child and have it grow to full term in a lab, or in another person, then the lives could be considered equal. Unfortunately we can't do that. Until that day forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy is putting the fetus first.

Quote:
If you can't handle it, you should take every precaution that you can, and if you still fall pregnant or get an STD, you accept that responsibility.[/b]
Serious question here. In the event that a person in this sort of situation takes all precautions and ends up pregnant which is more responsible; having the abortion and being a good mother to the already born children or continuing with the pregnancy and becoming so sick that she either kills herself or ends up committed?

I know first hand what it's like to have a parent die when you're little. No potential life is worth putting the existing children though that.
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  #29  
April 23rd, 2007, 04:44 PM
donomama
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Quote:
Sam - I think you've worded this question so perfectly that pro-lifers can't really answer that. The way you have set us up, we either answer the question honestly and look like a completely heartless human being, or we lie, tell you what you want to hear and look like hypocrites.

Well if you think that you answering honestly would make you look heartless maybe you (general you) need to take a deeper look at WHY it would sound heartless?

That is WHY I posted this,to try to show some people that it isn't that simple,and if you think it is,it may well be because you DO lack compassion when it comes to this.[/b]
I don't lack compassion - I simply see a fetus (or bunch of cells as you like to call it) a living human being, with the same rights to life as children already born. The fact that it is in utero does not make it any less human. There is no reason for me to look deeper - I see it as a black and white issue. Just because you don't know the child in question, doesn't mean that it's not a child, doesn't mean that it's not your child. I feel that often pro choicers feel like they need to come up with the worst case scenario, hoping that it will guilt pro lifers into seeing it a different way. Hasn't worked so far and won't work for me. It's a baby. Heartless? Maybe you need to look deeper
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  #32  
April 23rd, 2007, 07:09 PM
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I'm pregnant now and if it came down to it, I will feed my son (1 year old) before myself (depriving my unborn of nutrients). If we were both sick and I could only afford one doctor's appointment, I would take my son to the doctor. I want this child, don't get me wrong, but in no way is it equal to my son who is already here. If I were to miscarry because I took care of my child over my own well-being and deprived the fetus of food and water, should I be looked at as a murderer? I don't understand this kind of thinking......[/b]
And i don't understand THIS thinking... If instead of being your fetus, it was your newborn, would you still say the same thing? Because your newest child is younger, it's less important? Somehow i doubt it... Your child is your child, whether it be 16 weeks and in your womb, 2 months old outside your womb, or 30 years old and on their own.
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  #33  
April 23rd, 2007, 09:03 PM
mommyKathyX3
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I think a lot of people do look at abortion in terms of the fetus and mother being equal. The problem is that doesn't really pan out in reality. That sort of situation actually means that the fetus is placed higher than the mother because the woman has to go through the emotional and physical stress of a pregnancy. Particuarly in a scenario like this. By telling a woman that she is supposed to sacrifice her mental health to continue the pregnancy, you are actually putting the life of the fetus above hers.

If there was a way to remove the potential child and have it grow to full term in a lab, or in another person, then the lives could be considered equal. Unfortunately we can't do that. Until that day forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy is putting the fetus first.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
If you can't handle it, you should take every precaution that you can, and if you still fall pregnant or get an STD, you accept that responsibility.[/b]
Serious question here. In the event that a person in this sort of situation takes all precautions and ends up pregnant which is more responsible; having the abortion and being a good mother to the already born children or continuing with the pregnancy and becoming so sick that she either kills herself or ends up committed?

I know first hand what it's like to have a parent die when you're little. No potential life is worth putting the existing children though that.
[/b][/quote]

I just dont understand how someone can say putting the LIFE of another person above the mental well being of anybody could say thats wrong. If its that bad, make sure it never is an issue.

Oh yeah, I forgot, its not a life till its born right, its only a clump of cells and a potential life. So this is a non-issue.


Quote:
Quote:


I'm pregnant now and if it came down to it, I will feed my son (1 year old) before myself (depriving my unborn of nutrients). If we were both sick and I could only afford one doctor's appointment, I would take my son to the doctor. I want this child, don't get me wrong, but in no way is it equal to my son who is already here. If I were to miscarry because I took care of my child over my own well-being and deprived the fetus of food and water, should I be looked at as a murderer? I don't understand this kind of thinking......[/b]
And i don't understand THIS thinking... If instead of being your fetus, it was your newborn, would you still say the same thing? Because your newest child is younger, it's less important? Somehow i doubt it... Your child is your child, whether it be 16 weeks and in your womb, 2 months old outside your womb, or 30 years old and on their own.
[/b]
Exactly! How about if it was your 1 yr old child and your 3 yr old child? THen what would you do? You'd FIND A WAY RIGHT?
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  #34  
April 23rd, 2007, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
I just dont understand how someone can say putting the LIFE of another person above the mental well being of anybody could say thats wrong. If its that bad, make sure it never is an issue.

Oh yeah, I forgot, its not a life till its born right, its only a clump of cells and a potential life. So this is a non-issue. [/b]
Yes, because rolling your eyes is such a wonderful way to respond. I ask a serious question and this is what I get.

In case you haven't noticed I'm pregnant. Currently I'm spending a lot of time in fear that I'm going to lose this pregnancy. As much as I love this (clump of cells, child, fetus, embryo, whatever you want to call it) that's growing inside of me, I know that there is no guarantee it will be born. If I had other children and had to choose between this pregnancy that might be successful and out of the womb children, I would choose the children already born in a heartbeat. They're not possibilities, they're here and my first responsibility is to them. If I die, regardless of why, I could ruin their lives forever and the pregnancy would be lost anyway. If I were in a situation similar to the posted one, an abortion would actually save more lives.

A person's mental wellbeing is just as important as their physical. Serious mental illness is a very terrifying thing! Particuarly if it can lead to suicide or harming others.

I also notice you didn't actually answer my question. Which is better? A mom who kills herself, and the baby since it's inside of her, and leaves her already born children motherless, or a mom who has an abortion but manages to preserve her health and the health/future of her other children. Is it an easy decision, hell no, but in the end you've lost one life verses losing two and potentially ruining more.

You can do everything imaginable to prevent it and it can still happen. The issue is what to do once the pregnancy is already a fact.

Quote:
Exactly! How about if it was your 1 yr old child and your 3 yr old child? THen what would you do? You'd FIND A WAY RIGHT?[/b]
Sometimes you can't find a way. Sometimes you have to choose or you'll lose both. I hope no woman here is ever in that situation, but it does happen.
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  #35  
April 23rd, 2007, 09:58 PM
Caeden&#39;sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
In case you haven't noticed I'm pregnant. Currently I'm spending a lot of time in fear that I'm going to lose this pregnancy. As much as I love this (clump of cells, child, fetus, embryo, whatever you want to call it) that's growing inside of me, I know that there is no guarantee it will be born. If I had other children and had to choose between this pregnancy that might be successful and out of the womb children, I would choose the children already born in a heartbeat. They're not possibilities, they're here and my first responsibility is to them. If I die, regardless of why, I could ruin their lives forever and the pregnancy would be lost anyway. If I were in a situation similar to the posted one, an abortion would actually save more lives.[/b]
Hmm... Speaking of "possibilities", and "no guarantees"....

Quote:
I also notice you didn't actually answer my question. Which is better? A mom who kills herself, and the baby since it's inside of her, and leaves her already born children motherless, or a mom who has an abortion but manages to preserve her health and the health/future of her other children. Is it an easy decision, hell no, but in the end you've lost one life verses losing two and potentially ruining more.[/b]
In this case, you're aborting the child based on the POSSIBILITY of mom killing herself. That's not guaranteed either... So your logic here is a bit flawed...
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  #36  
April 23rd, 2007, 10:05 PM
mommyKathyX3
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
I just dont understand how someone can say putting the LIFE of another person above the mental well being of anybody could say thats wrong. If its that bad, make sure it never is an issue.

Oh yeah, I forgot, its not a life till its born right, its only a clump of cells and a potential life. So this is a non-issue. [/b]
Yes, because rolling your eyes is such a wonderful way to respond. I ask a serious question and this is what I get.

In case you haven't noticed I'm pregnant. Currently I'm spending a lot of time in fear that I'm going to lose this pregnancy. As much as I love this (clump of cells, child, fetus, embryo, whatever you want to call it) that's growing inside of me, I know that there is no guarantee it will be born. If I had other children and had to choose between this pregnancy that might be successful and out of the womb children, I would choose the children already born in a heartbeat. They're not possibilities, they're here and my first responsibility is to them. If I die, regardless of why, I could ruin their lives forever and the pregnancy would be lost anyway. If I were in a situation similar to the posted one, an abortion would actually save more lives.

A person's mental wellbeing is just as important as their physical. Serious mental illness is a very terrifying thing! Particuarly if it can lead to suicide or harming others.

I also notice you didn't actually answer my question. Which is better? A mom who kills herself, and the baby since it's inside of her, and leaves her already born children motherless, or a mom who has an abortion but manages to preserve her health and the health/future of her other children. Is it an easy decision, hell no, but in the end you've lost one life verses losing two and potentially ruining more.

You can do everything imaginable to prevent it and it can still happen. The issue is what to do once the pregnancy is already a fact.

Quote:
Exactly! How about if it was your 1 yr old child and your 3 yr old child? THen what would you do? You'd FIND A WAY RIGHT?[/b]
Sometimes you can't find a way. Sometimes you have to choose or you'll lose both. I hope no woman here is ever in that situation, but it does happen.
[/b][/quote]

I struggled with depression before. I still do, but its more controlled. For a large part of my life I was on the verge of suicidal, and probably would have been more if it wasnt for my faith. I'm not downplaying mental illness. Dont take it as that. I'm saying that anyones well being is just as important as anothers. Weather it be a mother and her child, or two strangers.

And you CAN prevent it. If you are that mentally unstable that you would not be able to carry a child in a healthy sense, get a hysterecomy. I know there are health issues with that, but you know what, if your health is THAT bad that you cant have a baby, MAKE SURE YOU NEVER DO without having to kill another human being to make sure that happens.

I feel that if and only if your going to go this route, and say I'm going to risk it, I think part of your strict regimine should be to get a blood test checking for pregnancy every 2 weeks. Pain in the arse? yes, but if your going to go through an abortion, do it early.

And also, I couldnt choose. Unless it was a unviable pregnancy (such as a tubal or something of that sort) no matter the situation, I would find a way. If you are that suicidal, then you should be under strict supervision and not be left alone with your birthed children anyway. For the life of my child I would sacrifice a few months of comfort of my present life, and even my other childrens life. THey are entitiled to the chance. There is always a way, though it may not be one you like.
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  #37  
April 23rd, 2007, 10:06 PM
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I believe Samu said that if she ended up pregnant again she would end up committing suicide or being committed, so I am staying within the parameters of the scenario. She also said that she has two special needs children who would greatly suffer if she wasn't there.

Even if none of the children were special needs, its still more important that those children have a healthy mother. I know what it's like to grow up minus a parent, and they should do whatever they can do avoid it. It would be sad if she had to have an abortion, but something even more precious would be saved.
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  #38  
April 23rd, 2007, 10:15 PM
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double post: I think she replied while I was typing mine.

Quote:
And also, I couldnt choose. Unless it was a unviable pregnancy (such as a tubal or something of that sort) no matter the situation, I would find a way. If you are that suicidal, then you should be under strict supervision and not be left alone with your birthed children anyway. For the life of my child I would sacrifice a few months of comfort of my present life, and even my other childrens life. THey are entitiled to the chance. There is always a way, though it may not be one[/b]
I wasn't speaking just of pregnancy in that case. There are times where a parent must choose between their children. Otherwise they will lose all of them.

In this case the mother is fine as long as she's not pregnant. It's the hormones caused by pregnancy that would cause her to become mentally ill and suicidal.

Quote:
feel that if and only if your going to go this route, and say I'm going to risk it, I think part of your strict regimine should be to get a blood test checking for pregnancy every 2 weeks. Pain in the arse? yes, but if your going to go through an abortion, do it early.[/b]
I do agree that the woman should pay attention to her body so she catches any pregnancy as early as possible. I'm not sure I'd suggest bi-weekly blood tests, simply being aware of your cycles is good enough.
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  #39  
April 23rd, 2007, 10:51 PM
mommyKathyX3
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
And also, I couldnt choose. Unless it was a unviable pregnancy (such as a tubal or something of that sort) no matter the situation, I would find a way. If you are that suicidal, then you should be under strict supervision and not be left alone with your birthed children anyway. For the life of my child I would sacrifice a few months of comfort of my present life, and even my other childrens life. THey are entitiled to the chance. There is always a way, though it may not be one[/b]
I wasn't speaking just of pregnancy in that case. There are times where a parent must choose between their children. Otherwise they will lose all of them.


[/b][/quote]

I still dont know if I could choose one of my children over another. I hope I never have to. I really think in the end I would end up going crazy or we all would end up dying.
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