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What would you think about this situation


Abortion Debate

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  #41  
April 24th, 2007, 08:43 AM
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I would NEVER, EVER choose between my children. How could you choose who dies and who lives (and I am not just talking about "clumps of worthless cells", I am also including born children.

I would either try my HARDEST to save ALL of them, or die trying. I honestly would NEVER choose between my children, never. I love them and care for them all equally, so I obviously couldn't "choose" whose worthier of life.[/b]
I realize we're going slightly off topic here, but what the heck, a little diversion is good right?

I'm not implying that a mother would just decide that one child is better than the others. However by making no choice, you are actually choosing death for all of them. In my head I pictured a scenario like a car accident where the children are injured but the mom isn't. She may have a few minutes before the paramedics arrive and can't give cpr to all of them, a choice would have to be made. Probably I would choose the one who had the greatest chance to survive. It would break my heart and I'm sure I would play the "what if" game for the rest of my life, but it would be much worse if I did nothing and lost all of them. There are other situations, but you get the idea.

Sometimes I think abortion is kind of like that. It's terrible and tragic to end a pregnancy, but sometimes it means the greatest number of lives can be saved. A life is more than simply breathing, it's also about quality. The already born children deserve to have a healthy mom who can take care of them and help them navigate the challenges of growing up. To not have that you're risking not only the life of the mother, whether she commits suicide or is committed, but the other childrens' lives as well.
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  #42  
April 24th, 2007, 09:01 AM
donomama
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Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
I would NEVER, EVER choose between my children. How could you choose who dies and who lives (and I am not just talking about "clumps of worthless cells", I am also including born children.

I would either try my HARDEST to save ALL of them, or die trying. I honestly would NEVER choose between my children, never. I love them and care for them all equally, so I obviously couldn't "choose" whose worthier of life.[/b]
I realize we're going slightly off topic here, but what the heck, a little diversion is good right?

I'm not implying that a mother would just decide that one child is better than the others. However by making no choice, you are actually choosing death for all of them. In my head I pictured a scenario like a car accident where the children are injured but the mom isn't. She may have a few minutes before the paramedics arrive and can't give cpr to all of them, a choice would have to be made. Probably I would choose the one who had the greatest chance to survive. It would break my heart and I'm sure I would play the "what if" game for the rest of my life, but it would be much worse if I did nothing and lost all of them. There are other situations, but you get the idea.

Sometimes I think abortion is kind of like that. It's terrible and tragic to end a pregnancy, but sometimes it means the greatest number of lives can be saved. A life is more than simply breathing, it's also about quality. The already born children deserve to have a healthy mom who can take care of them and help them navigate the challenges of growing up. To not have that you're risking not only the life of the mother, whether she commits suicide or is committed, but the other childrens' lives as well.
[/b][/quote]


Elena, I think that's a good analogy, but I don't think it completely captures abortion. To me, a better comparison would be if you were in a car wreck and hanging off a cliff. You think there may be a better chance for the whole family to survive if the car has less weight in it, pulling it over the cliff, so you choose one of your children to throw out of the car.
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  #44  
April 24th, 2007, 10:01 AM
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Elena, I think that's a good analogy, but I don't think it completely captures abortion. To me, a better comparison would be if you were in a car wreck and hanging off a cliff. You think there may be a better chance for the whole family to survive if the car has less weight in it, pulling it over the cliff, so you choose one of your children to throw out of the car.

Not quite
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  #46  
April 24th, 2007, 11:36 AM
Caeden&#39;sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
I would NEVER, EVER choose between my children. How could you choose who dies and who lives (and I am not just talking about "clumps of worthless cells", I am also including born children.

I would either try my HARDEST to save ALL of them, or die trying. I honestly would NEVER choose between my children, never. I love them and care for them all equally, so I obviously couldn't "choose" whose worthier of life.[/b]
I realize we're going slightly off topic here, but what the heck, a little diversion is good right?

I'm not implying that a mother would just decide that one child is better than the others. However by making no choice, you are actually choosing death for all of them. In my head I pictured a scenario like a car accident where the children are injured but the mom isn't. She may have a few minutes before the paramedics arrive and can't give cpr to all of them, a choice would have to be made. Probably I would choose the one who had the greatest chance to survive. It would break my heart and I'm sure I would play the "what if" game for the rest of my life, but it would be much worse if I did nothing and lost all of them. There are other situations, but you get the idea.

Sometimes I think abortion is kind of like that. It's terrible and tragic to end a pregnancy, but sometimes it means the greatest number of lives can be saved. A life is more than simply breathing, it's also about quality. The already born children deserve to have a healthy mom who can take care of them and help them navigate the challenges of growing up. To not have that you're risking not only the life of the mother, whether she commits suicide or is committed, but the other childrens' lives as well.
[/b][/quote]

That's not the same... In that situation, the mom has no choice. There is absolutely nothing she can do differently. Abortion IS a choice, therefore... not the same.

Quote:
Elena, I think that's a good analogy, but I don't think it completely captures abortion. To me, a better comparison would be if you were in a car wreck and hanging off a cliff. You think there may be a better chance for the whole family to survive if the car has less weight in it, pulling it over the cliff, so you choose one of your children to throw out of the car.

Not quite [/b]
Explain please? I think that analogy works much better... So how is it not the same?
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  #47  
April 24th, 2007, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
<div class='quotemain'>I would NEVER, EVER choose between my children. How could you choose who dies and who lives (and I am not just talking about "clumps of worthless cells", I am also including born children.

I would either try my HARDEST to save ALL of them, or die trying. I honestly would NEVER choose between my children, never. I love them and care for them all equally, so I obviously couldn't "choose" whose worthier of life.[/b]
I realize we're going slightly off topic here, but what the heck, a little diversion is good right?

I'm not implying that a mother would just decide that one child is better than the others. However by making no choice, you are actually choosing death for all of them. In my head I pictured a scenario like a car accident where the children are injured but the mom isn't. She may have a few minutes before the paramedics arrive and can't give cpr to all of them, a choice would have to be made. Probably I would choose the one who had the greatest chance to survive. It would break my heart and I'm sure I would play the "what if" game for the rest of my life, but it would be much worse if I did nothing and lost all of them. There are other situations, but you get the idea.

Sometimes I think abortion is kind of like that. It's terrible and tragic to end a pregnancy, but sometimes it means the greatest number of lives can be saved. A life is more than simply breathing, it's also about quality. The already born children deserve to have a healthy mom who can take care of them and help them navigate the challenges of growing up. To not have that you're risking not only the life of the mother, whether she commits suicide or is committed, but the other childrens' lives as well.
[/b][/quote]

That's not the same... In that situation, the mom has no choice. There is absolutely nothing she can do differently. Abortion IS a choice, therefore... not the same.

Quote:
Elena, I think that's a good analogy, but I don't think it completely captures abortion. To me, a better comparison would be if you were in a car wreck and hanging off a cliff. You think there may be a better chance for the whole family to survive if the car has less weight in it, pulling it over the cliff, so you choose one of your children to throw out of the car.

Not quite [/b]
Explain please? I think that analogy works much better... So how is it not the same?
[/b][/quote]

Well I don't Because I do not see a fetus as my child until it hits a certain stage.
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  #48  
April 24th, 2007, 12:42 PM
mrobinson
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I think a lot of people do look at abortion in terms of the fetus and mother being equal. The problem is that doesn't really pan out in reality. That sort of situation actually means that the fetus is placed higher than the mother because the woman has to go through the emotional and physical stress of a pregnancy. Particuarly in a scenario like this. By telling a woman that she is supposed to sacrifice her mental health to continue the pregnancy, you are actually putting the life of the fetus above hers.

If there was a way to remove the potential child and have it grow to full term in a lab, or in another person, then the lives could be considered equal. Unfortunately we can't do that. Until that day forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy is putting the fetus first.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
If you can't handle it, you should take every precaution that you can, and if you still fall pregnant or get an STD, you accept that responsibility.[/b]
Serious question here. In the event that a person in this sort of situation takes all precautions and ends up pregnant which is more responsible; having the abortion and being a good mother to the already born children or continuing with the pregnancy and becoming so sick that she either kills herself or ends up committed?

I know first hand what it's like to have a parent die when you're little. No potential life is worth putting the existing children though that.
[/b][/quote]
Excellent post!

Quote:
I feel that often pro choicers feel like they need to come up with the worst case scenario, hoping that it will guilt pro lifers into seeing it a different way.[/b]
But this is the reality of abortion. You and I might see the choices, but to a person in that situation, there doesn't seem like much choice.

Quote:
In case you haven't noticed I'm pregnant. Currently I'm spending a lot of time in fear that I'm going to lose this pregnancy. As much as I love this (clump of cells, child, fetus, embryo, whatever you want to call it) that's growing inside of me, I know that there is no guarantee it will be born. If I had other children and had to choose between this pregnancy that might be successful and out of the womb children, I would choose the children already born in a heartbeat. They're not possibilities, they're here and my first responsibility is to them. If I die, regardless of why, I could ruin their lives forever and the pregnancy would be lost anyway. If I were in a situation similar to the posted one, an abortion would actually save more lives.

A person's mental wellbeing is just as important as their physical. Serious mental illness is a very terrifying thing! Particuarly if it can lead to suicide or harming others.

I also notice you didn't actually answer my question. Which is better? A mom who kills herself, and the baby since it's inside of her, and leaves her already born children motherless, or a mom who has an abortion but manages to preserve her health and the health/future of her other children. Is it an easy decision, hell no, but in the end you've lost one life verses losing two and potentially ruining more.

You can do everything imaginable to prevent it and it can still happen. The issue is what to do once the pregnancy is already a fact.[/b]
Excellent post.

Quote:
And you CAN prevent it. If you are that mentally unstable that you would not be able to carry a child in a healthy sense, get a hysterecomy. I know there are health issues with that, but you know what, if your health is THAT bad that you cant have a baby, MAKE SURE YOU NEVER DO without having to kill another human being to make sure that happens.[/b]
Did you know, aside from the medical issues we all know, many women can't get a hysterecomy? The medical professions won't allow it without many reasons, including "what-if" she changes her mind, (and sometimes with permission from a husband.) You'd be surprised to know they don't always have a choice hence why that is part of the "my body-mychoice" debate women have with the world. To many people women aren't capable of making these decisions. But that aside, you're still not giving women any choices if they feel that abortion is better than the long term medical effects of having a hysterecomy.

Quote:
I'm not implying that a mother would just decide that one child is better than the others. However by making no choice, you are actually choosing death for all of them. In my head I pictured a scenario like a car accident where the children are injured but the mom isn't. She may have a few minutes before the paramedics arrive and can't give cpr to all of them, a choice would have to be made. Probably I would choose the one who had the greatest chance to survive. It would break my heart and I'm sure I would play the "what if" game for the rest of my life, but it would be much worse if I did nothing and lost all of them. There are other situations, but you get the idea.

Sometimes I think abortion is kind of like that. It's terrible and tragic to end a pregnancy, but sometimes it means the greatest number of lives can be saved. A life is more than simply breathing, it's also about quality. The already born children deserve to have a healthy mom who can take care of them and help them navigate the challenges of growing up. To not have that you're risking not only the life of the mother, whether she commits suicide or is committed, but the other childrens' lives as well.[/b]
Excellent post!

Quote:
Abortion IS a choice, therefore... not the same.[/b]
I don't understand.. In your logic of no abortion, that leaves other children without a mother. You feel that's a choice?
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  #49  
April 24th, 2007, 01:21 PM
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Well I don't Because I do not see a fetus as my child until it hits a certain stage.[/b]
Okay, what stage is that? 12 weeks, 24 weeks, 36 weeks, birth, what?

Quote:
Quote:
Abortion IS a choice, therefore... not the same.[/b]
I don't understand.. In your logic of no abortion, that leaves other children without a mother. You feel that's a choice?
[/b]
You're missing the point... The children are not AUTOMATICALLY left without a mother. Samu is just saying there's a POSSIBILITY she might commit suicide. But what i was referring to was in a car accident, if you can only give CPR to one child when two need it, there is nothing you can do to suddenly grow two new arms and save both children. You don't make a CHOICE to not save both. With abortion, no one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to do it. It is a CHOICE the mother makes. So yes... it's a choice. Isn't that why you call it being pro-CHOICE?
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  #50  
April 24th, 2007, 01:36 PM
mrobinson
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Quote:


Well I don't Because I do not see a fetus as my child until it hits a certain stage.[/b]
Okay, what stage is that? 12 weeks, 24 weeks, 36 weeks, birth, what?

Quote:
<div class='quotemain'>
Abortion IS a choice, therefore... not the same.[/b]
I don't understand.. In your logic of no abortion, that leaves other children without a mother. You feel that's a choice?
[/b]
You're missing the point... The children are not AUTOMATICALLY left without a mother. Samu is just saying there's a POSSIBILITY she might commit suicide. But what i was referring to was in a car accident, if you can only give CPR to one child when two need it, there is nothing you can do to suddenly grow two new arms and save both children. You don't make a CHOICE to not save both. With abortion, no one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to do it. It is a CHOICE the mother makes. So yes... it's a choice. Isn't that why you call it being pro-CHOICE?
[/b][/quote]

Being condescending doesn't make you a better debater..

Anway, you're missing the point. You think it's possible that the mental health won't kill her.. You don't see the real issue of mental health which is half of the problem of abortion.
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  #51  
April 24th, 2007, 02:16 PM
Caeden&#39;sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:


Well I don't Because I do not see a fetus as my child until it hits a certain stage.[/b]
Okay, what stage is that? 12 weeks, 24 weeks, 36 weeks, birth, what?

Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Caeden'sMama @ Apr 24 2007, 12:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotemain'>
Abortion IS a choice, therefore... not the same.[/b]
I don't understand.. In your logic of no abortion, that leaves other children without a mother. You feel that's a choice?
[/b]
You're missing the point... The children are not AUTOMATICALLY left without a mother. Samu is just saying there's a POSSIBILITY she might commit suicide. But what i was referring to was in a car accident, if you can only give CPR to one child when two need it, there is nothing you can do to suddenly grow two new arms and save both children. You don't make a CHOICE to not save both. With abortion, no one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to do it. It is a CHOICE the mother makes. So yes... it's a choice. Isn't that why you call it being pro-CHOICE?
[/b][/quote]

Being condescending doesn't make you a better debater..

Anway, you're missing the point. You think it's possible that the mental health won't kill her.. You don't see the real issue of mental health which is half of the problem of abortion.
[/b][/quote]

How am i being condescending?

And as for me not seeing the real issue of mental health, believe me... i do. You have no idea the ways in which i know all about it. Just because i don't agree with it being a reason to abort a child, doesn't mean i don't understand it...
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  #52  
April 24th, 2007, 02:23 PM
mrobinson
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And as for me not seeing the real issue of mental health, believe me... i do. You have no idea the ways in which i know all about it. Just because i don't agree with it being a reason to abort a child, doesn't mean i don't understand it... [/b]
Well if you have a full understanding of the mental health issues, why do you hold anyone who needs medical help at a such a high standard that you expect them to not be effected enough by their illness to not commit suicide and be a mom since abortion isn't an answer in your eyes.?
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  #53  
April 24th, 2007, 02:36 PM
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Did you know, aside from the medical issues we all know, many women can't get a hysterecomy? The medical professions won't allow it without many reasons, including "what-if" she changes her mind, (and sometimes with permission from a husband.) You'd be surprised to know they don't always have a choice hence why that is part of the "my body-mychoice" debate women have with the world. To many people women aren't capable of making these decisions. But that aside, you're still not giving women any choices if they feel that abortion is better than the long term medical effects of having a hysterecomy.

Spot on! at 25 I CAN'T get one anyway.

Okay, what stage is that? 12 weeks, 24 weeks, 36 weeks, birth, what?

Does that really matter? I do not see a fetus as important as my children until they can live outside of my body,be it with life support or not.

You're missing the point... The children are not AUTOMATICALLY left without a mother. Samu is just saying there's a POSSIBILITY she might commit suicide. But what i was referring to was in a car accident, if you can only give CPR to one child when two need it, there is nothing you can do to suddenly grow two new arms and save both children. You don't make a CHOICE to not save both. With abortion, no one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to do it. It is a CHOICE the mother makes. So yes... it's a choice. Isn't that why you call it being pro-CHOICE?

A VERY high possibility. I know my mental health better than anyone else does so if I say it is VERY likely,then it is. Being ill ALREADY and then getting pregnant on top of that would send my hormones crazy,which as a result could make me dangerously ill. I can cope,just about,with one pregnancy as long as I have my illness under control BEFORE I conceive. If I am already very ill while conceiving and dealing with PND because I have just given birth then it is a very different story for me entirely.

Well if you have a full understanding of the mental health issues, why do you hold anyone who needs medical help at a such a high standard that you expect them to not be effected enough by their illness to not commit suicide and be a mom since abortion isn't an answer in your eyes.?

I love me some Michelle ITA.

You actually have NO idea about MY mental health at all.

You are suggesting that I go through with the pregnancy and risk leaving my kids motherless? The fetus is obviously more important than my life then. To say you view life as equal is a cop out. You don't. You can not think my life and my children's life is equal to a fetuses when you think I should risk my life and my children's wellbeing. You are putting a fetus before me and my children. PRO FETUS- NOT PRO LIFE.
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  #54  
April 24th, 2007, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
And as for me not seeing the real issue of mental health, believe me... i do. You have no idea the ways in which i know all about it. Just because i don't agree with it being a reason to abort a child, doesn't mean i don't understand it... [/b]
Well if you have a full understanding of the mental health issues, why do you hold anyone who needs medical help at a such a high standard that you expect them to not be effected enough by their illness to not commit suicide and be a mom since abortion isn't an answer in your eyes.?
[/b]
Because... killing a person is never an appropriate treatment for a mental illness. Due to the fact that she already knows going in that having a child would be THAT devastating to her, it is up to her to take the appropriate actions to make sure that doesn't occur. If it does, i would still think being in a mental institution for the duration of her pregnancy is still a better option that abortion.

Quote:
Okay, what stage is that? 12 weeks, 24 weeks, 36 weeks, birth, what?

Does that really matter? I do not see a fetus as important as my children until they can live outside of my body,be it with life support or not.[/b]
So, because your newborn child is more dependent on you than your teenage child, their life would be less important? Same logic...

Quote:
You're missing the point... The children are not AUTOMATICALLY left without a mother. Samu is just saying there's a POSSIBILITY she might commit suicide. But what i was referring to was in a car accident, if you can only give CPR to one child when two need it, there is nothing you can do to suddenly grow two new arms and save both children. You don't make a CHOICE to not save both. With abortion, no one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to do it. It is a CHOICE the mother makes. So yes... it's a choice. Isn't that why you call it being pro-CHOICE?

A VERY high possibility. I know my mental health better than anyone else does so if I say it is VERY likely,then it is. Being ill ALREADY and then getting pregnant on top of that would send my hormones crazy,which as a result could make me dangerously ill. I can cope,just about,with one pregnancy as long as I have my illness under control BEFORE I conceive. If I am already very ill while conceiving and dealing with PND because I have just given birth then it is a very different story for me entirely.[/b]

Right... You know yourself better than anyone. Which is why it's YOUR responsibility to not get pregnant then, not just kill your child if you do.

Quote:
Well if you have a full understanding of the mental health issues, why do you hold anyone who needs medical help at a such a high standard that you expect them to not be effected enough by their illness to not commit suicide and be a mom since abortion isn't an answer in your eyes.?

I love me some Michelle ITA.

You actually have NO idea about MY mental health at all.

You are suggesting that I go through with the pregnancy and risk leaving my kids motherless? The fetus is obviously more important than my life then. To say you view life as equal is a cop out. You don't. You can not think my life and my children's life is equal to a fetuses when you think I should risk my life and my children's wellbeing. You are putting a fetus before me and my children. PRO FETUS- NOT PRO LIFE.[/b]
No, you're wrong... i DO think both lives are equal. But in this instance, the baby is innocent. They did not ask to be here, they did nothing wrong. There is nothing they can do differently. YOU however, have the responsibility, the power, and the choice. You as the mother are the one in charge of protecting your child... be it unborn or born. Which is why YOU need to be the one to not put yourself in the situation where you're risking your other children's well being. Don't get pregnant, and this is never an issue. If you are going to continue to have sex when there is the remote possibility of still getting pregnant, then you need to be responsible enough to have a plan in place for how to deal with that... and not just by killing the baby. Harsh? Yes... But that's life. It's no secret what sex is for, and what it leads to... So that is a responsibility you take on when having it.
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  #55  
April 24th, 2007, 03:04 PM
mrobinson
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Quote:
Quote:
And as for me not seeing the real issue of mental health, believe me... i do. You have no idea the ways in which i know all about it. Just because i don't agree with it being a reason to abort a child, doesn't mean i don't understand it... [/b]
Well if you have a full understanding of the mental health issues, why do you hold anyone who needs medical help at a such a high standard that you expect them to not be effected enough by their illness to not commit suicide and be a mom since abortion isn't an answer in your eyes.?
[/b]
Because... killing a person is never an appropriate treatment for a mental illness. Due to the fact that she already knows going in that having a child would be THAT devastating to her, it is up to her to take the appropriate actions to make sure that doesn't occur. If it does, i would still think being in a mental institution for the duration of her pregnancy is still a better option that abortion. [/b]
We have a mom with kids who is "killing a person?" No she is having an abortion and saving herself and her kids in that process. (And again you think a person can avoid 100% getting pregnant ~ missing the other half of the problem of abortion.) Your reply to me shows me you don't understand mental health nor abortion. You feel a pre-born baby is an equal part of the equation.. How do you do that math with 2 kids and 1 mom equal to a pre-born baby?


Quote:
No, you're wrong... i DO think both lives are equal.[/b]
I think you missed what Elena pointed over and over.. It's not equal. Someone is being choosen over the other fair or not.
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  #56  
April 24th, 2007, 03:33 PM
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Because... killing a person is never an appropriate treatment for a mental illness. Due to the fact that she already knows going in that having a child would be THAT devastating to her, it is up to her to take the appropriate actions to make sure that doesn't occur. If it does, i would still think being in a mental institution for the duration of her pregnancy is still a better option that abortion.

Right and no one ever kills themselves in a mental institution right? WRONG!! Ask my SO about his friend,she was on 24 hours a day observations in a mental institution and she still managed to kill herself. Trust me,sadly it happens,and if someone wants to kill themselves they will do so,not matter where they are.

Why keep harping on taking precautions, I am,the debate is about someone who still got pregnant while taking them.

Right... You know yourself better than anyone. Which is why it's YOUR responsibility to not get pregnant then, not just kill your child if you do.

I am starting to think that is your only answer. Pregnancies happen and I am not allowed to get a tubal even if I want one.

So, because your newborn child is more dependent on you than your teenage child, their life would be less important? Same logic..

Not quite :/

If you are going to continue to have sex when there is the remote possibility of still getting pregnant, then you need to be responsible enough to have a plan in place for how to deal with that... and not just by killing the baby. Harsh? Yes... But that's life. It's no secret what sex is for, and what it leads to... So that is a responsibility you take on when having it.

No it isn't harsh,it is just small minded and proves to me you can only see this issue in black and white and forget people are human with human feelings. Abortion is not black and white,to say it is is pretty ignorant. I do have a plan in place actually. The snip for SO,IUD for me,if both somehow fail,I abort. Not the choice YOU like,but one that I would consider.

I think you missed what Elena pointed over and over.. It's not equal. Someone is being choosen over the other fair or not.

Exactly.
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  #57  
April 24th, 2007, 08:06 PM
irishxrose
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I cannot believe some of the posts in this thread. Mental health is very serious, and a VERY valid reason to have an abortion. If a mom can't handle emotionally and mentally another child, then she shouldn't be FORCED to.
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April 24th, 2007, 09:01 PM
Caeden&#39;sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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I cannot believe some of the posts in this thread. Mental health is very serious, and a VERY valid reason to have an abortion. If a mom can't handle emotionally and mentally another child, then she shouldn't be FORCED to.[/b]
Is mental illness a very valid reason to choose to kill your born child? Hmm.. doubtful. So why is it so hard for you to understand that those of us who see fetuses as unborn children wouldn't buy it as a valid excuse?
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