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What would you think about this situation


Abortion Debate

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  #1  
April 22nd, 2007, 08:31 AM
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I hardly ever enter these debates because they make me mad and sad but last night while I couldn't sleep I was thinking about this.

I am going to use me as an example. NO I am not pregnant,no I have not had an abortion,I was just thinking about what I would do if I had an accidental pregnancy.

I gave birth just 4 months ago,I have three other children,two have special needs,they need a lot of time spent with them to learn more,they have social delays,emotional delays ,severe learning disabilities,OCD and one especially is very high needs.

I have PPD but mine comes out in severe OCD,I am not talking about OCD where I just clean a lot,or none of the stereotype OCD compulsions. I get intrusive thoughts,to the point where at times I can barely function.

Now,If I was to have a split condom,the pill failed,the IUD failed etc would you still think I should go ahead with the pregnancy?

If I did here is what would happen: I would be risking my mental health,to have another massive leap in hormones could result in me needing to spend time in a mental health hospital. This would seriously upset my children,my partner and family. I would NEED to go on strong medication which can lead to birth defects or premature birth. I could get very seriously ill and would be no good to my children.

I suffer with hypermemsis in pregnancy,sick for 38 weeks none stop which led me hospitalized last time. Again,that on top of my mental health illness would not be pretty.

My children would get less attention meaning their special needs could become even worse,it would mean that my children may get even more left behind in school. That could affect their future.

I am not a good pregnant person,I dislike it strongly. The health aliments I get on top of the sickness and OCD would bring me down badly.

I would have to move very quickly as I have no room for another child,it would be stressful for me but also my children who need routine.


As you can see it would be a bad bad situation.

Would you still say that aborting the fetus would be wrong? Would you still think I should go ahead with the pregnancy even though my already living outside my body children would suffer badly? The baby would have a mother who is most likely severely mentally ill. Two pregnancies back to back would not be good.

I get how people think a fetus is a life,I agree with you on that too. But when do you put yourself and your existing child before a fetus? Would it be fair on my children to see their mum get so ill?

Adoption would not be the answer,that would not stop my health from failing.

I know some will say that mum should have been sterilized,I do not want to talk about that part though,for the sake of this debate the accident has happened,we can't change that.

I just wonder if pro lifers ever actually think about stuff like this,it seems they care more about a fetus than they do the mothers health and the exsisting children's health.

Again,I am not pregnant,I never will be pregnant again but I was just thinking about what would happen to me if I did fall pregnant accidentally.

You honestly think abortion should be illegal? You really think I should just go ahead with the pregnancy and stuff my mental health? stuff my children's health? Honestly,do pro lifers ever sit back to stop and consider the devastation a pregnancy could have on the whole family? Do you really care more about a fetus than you do anything else?
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  #2  
April 22nd, 2007, 10:20 AM
chloe82
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Good question...the thing about it is it's almost impossible for a PL person to answer without looking like a jerk with no compassion or empathy!!! The question is slanted that way...
I get what you're saying, I totally do, but you asked it in a way that I were to say that yes, you should go ahead with the pregnancy, then I'm also insinuating that yes, a fetus is more important than your life or your existing childrens' lives and you should, as you put it, stuff your health and their health and everybody's general wellbeing because that would indicate that all I care about is the fetus.
I'll venture an answer anyways....my answer is that being pro-life doesn't mean that all i care about is a fetus. I actually really object to that idea. I do, however, personally believe a fetus is a life, and is *your* child (in this hypothetical situation) and deserves the same consideration and value that you would place on your own life and your other childrens' lives. HOWEVER, I realize this situation is EXTREMELY difficult and complicated and saying "abortion is wrong" does not make it an easy or simple decision. Would i advise you to get an abortion?? No, I could never in good conscience advise anybody to do that. I guess the *right* thing (IMO) is not necessarily the easy thing, not for you or your family as a whole, especially in a situation like this one. But I cannot dismiss what I believe to be the fact that this unborn child is simply another one of your children and that you would have to lead your family in making the sacrifices necessary to make room for one more, who is just as precious as any one of them. I WISH there were more social supports out there available to women in situations like yours so that this kind of decision wouldn't even be necessary, which is why i say I don't *just* care about the fetus. I strongly support any amount of my tax dollars going towards social supports that help out families like yours, that would offer help to your other children with their special needs, to your own health as a mother if need be, etc etc etc.
In any case, that's my answer, it's PL but I do care about more than the fetus! kwim?? Hope it makes some sense.
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  #3  
April 22nd, 2007, 10:41 AM
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Hi and thanks for replying

My question isn't slanted that way. I do not think many PLers stop to think about how it would affect the whole family,some of them just seem to concentrate on the fact that a fetus deserves to live without taking into consideration that if someone in my situation did fall PG and kept it it would be harming more than one person.

A lot of PLers want aborting illegal,even if that means that I may end up in a mental health hospital? I get support,I don't actually need any as I do very well on my own but if I was to become pregnant I couldn't do it. No support from anyone is going to take away the fact that my mental illness is often triggered by hormones,all the support in the world can not help that. I have a chemical imbalance and social services support etc just can not change that.

I could get help for my children but I want to be there for them,I do no want someone to come to my house to help out because I had too many children to cope with. It is my responsibility to look after them,not have someone come and help me with them. I have no issues with people who need the help,I have got help myself in the past,but if I had to get help with my children because I had too many children I would feel awful.

I get that you see it as one of my unborn children but the fact is the fetus would NEED my body to survive,they have no life experience,at the time of abortion it may not even have a heart beat. My children do,is it fair for my living children to suffer because of a potential child??

This thread isn't slanted to make anyone who says they think I should abort to come across as lacking in compassion. The truth is you would be lacking in the abilitly to think about anything other that the fetus. You would be putting your values onto me (if you want abortion to be illegal that is)

I take issues with people who want it to be illegal the most because they would not be caring about me and my children. I do not call that pro life- I call that pro fetus. Stuff if I kill myself,stuff if my children suffer so badly their lives get screwed up,as long as this unborn child gets to live that is all that matters right? I should run the risk of killing myself,run the risk of my children being motherless just to give the fetus a right to live. The fetus is not more important than me,I am more important because my living children NEED me,they will suffer a lot more than a bunch of cells that is not even formed yet,who doesn't have a heartbeat and doesn't understand what life is.

I hate the thought of abortions,I really really do,but I could never sit here and say it should be illegal because I am able to put myself in someone else's shoes and realize that the baby may get to be born but with serious consequences on the rest of the family.

All I can say is THANK GOODNESS I am not in this position. Thank goodness that I am so not pregnant
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  #4  
April 22nd, 2007, 10:51 AM
Caeden'sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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What Chloe said...

And, i don't think it's fair to completely discount that if you know pregnancy would put you in THAT much hardship, that you take the proper precautions to assure it won't happen! Whether that be permanent sterilization, or just not having sex at all. Obviously vasectomies and tubal ligations CAN still fail, but the chance is much more minuscule than condoms or pills and such where there can be human error. I just think that if you're an adult, you need to take that personal responsibility for yourself, so to say that's not a valid argument just doesn't make sense to me...

As for if you DID still end up pregnant, adoption would solve the needing to move part. As for the rest, well... would any of those hardships be reason enough for you to kill one of your existing children? No? Then why your newest child? I'm not saying it's easy, because it's certainly not... and i really don't have all the answers. I just can't get on board with killing a child as the solution to your problems, you know?

Quote:
Hi and thanks for replying

My question isn't slanted that way. I do not think many PLers stop to think about how it would affect the whole family,some of them just seem to concentrate on the fact that a fetus deserves to live without taking into consideration that if someone in my situation did fall PG and kept it it would be harming more than one person.

A lot of PLers want aborting illegal,even if that means that I may end up in a mental health hospital? I get support,I don't actually need any as I do very well on my own but if I was to become pregnant I couldn't do it. No support from anyone is going to take away the fact that my mental illness is often triggered by hormones,all the support in the world can not help that. I have a chemical imbalance and social services support etc just can not change that.

I could get help for my children but I want to be there for them,I do no want someone to come to my house to help out because I had too many children to cope with. It is my responsibility to look after them,not have someone come and help me with them. I have no issues with people who need the help,I have got help myself in the past,but if I had to get help with my children because I had too many children I would feel awful.

I get that you see it as one of my unborn children but the fact is the fetus would NEED my body to survive,they have no life experience,at the time of abortion it may not even have a heart beat. My children do,is it fair for my living children to suffer because of a potential child??

This thread isn't slanted to make anyone who says they think I should abort to come across as lacking in compassion. The truth is you would be lacking in the abilitly to think about anything other that the fetus. You would be putting your values onto me (if you want abortion to be illegal that is)

I take issues with people who want it to be illegal the most because they would not be caring about me and my children. I do not call that pro life- I call that pro fetus. Stuff if I kill myself,stuff if my children suffer so badly their lives get screwed up,as long as this unborn child gets to live that is all that matters right? I should run the risk of killing myself,run the risk of my children being motherless just to give the fetus a right to live. The fetus is not more important than me,I am more important because my living children NEED me,they will suffer a lot more than a bunch of cells that is not even formed yet,who doesn't have a heartbeat and doesn't understand what life is.

I hate the thought of abortions,I really really do,but I could never sit here and say it should be illegal because I am able to put myself in someone else's shoes and realize that the baby may get to be born but with serious consequences on the rest of the family.

All I can say is THANK GOODNESS I am not in this position. Thank goodness that I am so not pregnant [/b]
That's not fair to say any pro-lifer just isn't thinking about anything other than the fetus. I may disagree with you having an abortion in that instance, but that doesn't make me cold and uncaring, and not thinking about what you've said. I've just come to a different conclusion. Again, if you were saying all the same stuff, but presenting that as a reason to kill one of your existing children, would i be cruel to not get on board? No! Just because i think a child is a child, inside the womb or out doesn't make me unfeeling or unthinking...
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  #5  
April 22nd, 2007, 10:58 AM
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And, i don't think it's fair to completely discount that if you know pregnancy would put you in THAT much hardship, that you take the proper precautions to assure it won't happen! Whether that be permanent sterilization, or just not having sex at all. Obviously vasectomies and tubal ligations CAN still fail, but the chance is much more minuscule than condoms or pills and such where there can be human error. I just think that if you're an adult, you need to take that personal responsibility for yourself, so to say that's not a valid argument just doesn't make sense to me...

No,I did not say that it wasn't a valid argument,I just didn't want to debate that side of it. I am safe,SO is getting the snip. The fact is people DO still end up pregnant even when they are safe. That is why I wanted to concentrate on the fact that hypothetically the accidental pregnancy has happened.

As for if you DID still end up pregnant, adoption would solve the needing to move part. As for the rest, well... would any of those hardships be reason enough for you to kill one of your existing children? No? Then why your newest child? I'm not saying it's easy, because it's certainly not... and i really don't have all the answers. I just can't get on board with killing a child as the solution to your problems, you know? confused.gif

I would not kill my existing children because they are living. A fetus may be alive but there is a massive difference between a child that has no life experience,no heartbeat (if you catch the PG early enough and take the abortion pill) than my children who are outside right now playing. That is where we differ.

I am not going to convince you there is a difference between a fetus and a already born child and I respect that,but why can you not respect womens right to choose differently? You have no proof that the fetus would be aware of dying,you have no proof that a fetus feels pain just like I can not prove otherwise so it is simply a matter of opinion.

If I really feel that my life and my born childrens life is more important than a fetuses life then why should the right to abort it be illegal? If I want to make sure I am mentally well and put my mental wellness before a fetus why shouldn't I be allowed?

You say you do not have all the answers,well,if you are so PL do you not think we should find these answers before it is illegal?

You are not on board with killing a fetus as the answer to my problems but if I did kill myself there would not be a baby anyway!

It seems simple to me. Abort the fetus and my 4 children have a healthy mother. Go through with the pregnancy and risk my life,the fetuses life and my 4 childrens happiness.
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  #6  
April 22nd, 2007, 11:43 AM
Caeden'sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
I would not kill my existing children because they are living. A fetus may be alive but there is a massive difference between a child that has no life experience,no heartbeat (if you catch the PG early enough and take the abortion pill) than my children who are outside right now playing. That is where we differ.[/b]
The baby can have a heartbeat as early as five weeks. Most people don't catch their pregnancies THAT early, let alone early enough to still have time to make an appointment, think things through, etc... So my guess is most aborted fetuses DID have heartbeats, which makes them just as alive as you or me.

Quote:
I am not going to convince you there is a difference between a fetus and a already born child and I respect that,but why can you not respect womens right to choose differently? You have no proof that the fetus would be aware of dying,you have no proof that a fetus feels pain just like I can not prove otherwise so it is simply a matter of opinion.

If I really feel that my life and my born childrens life is more important than a fetuses life then why should the right to abort it be illegal? If I want to make sure I am mentally well and put my mental wellness before a fetus why shouldn't I be allowed?[/b]
For the same reason i don't respect a murderer's right to choose to kill. It's the same to me, so of course i don't support abortion as a valid choice.


Quote:
You say you do not have all the answers,well,if you are so PL do you not think we should find these answers before it is illegal?[/b]
Not really... I think if abortion was illegal and you never knew it any other way, you wouldvn't even consider it as an option if you got pregnant. You would simply have to figure out other ways to deal with that scenario. Just like with anything else in life...

Quote:
You are not on board with killing a fetus as the answer to my problems but if I did kill myself there would not be a baby anyway!

It seems simple to me. Abort the fetus and my 4 children have a healthy mother. Go through with the pregnancy and risk my life,the fetuses life and my 4 childrens happiness.[/b]
Well, that's where YOUR personal responsibility comes in. Don't get pregnant, and this won't even matter, right?
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  #7  
April 22nd, 2007, 12:14 PM
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Well, that's where YOUR personal responsibility comes in. Don't get pregnant, and this won't even matter, right?

Well of course not. I am not planning too. I was just using an example to try to get others to see that abortion is not black and white. I do not know anyone else's situation so I just used what it would be like for me. I am safe but remember even being safe is not fool proof. Have you met my birth control child in my siggy?

The baby can have a heartbeat as early as five weeks. Most people don't catch their pregnancies THAT early, let alone early enough to still have time to make an appointment, think things through, etc... So my guess is most aborted fetuses DID have heartbeats, which makes them just as alive as you or me.

Not really,baby needs me to live,not like me and you at all.

Not really... I think if abortion was illegal and you never knew it any other way, you wouldvn't even consider it as an option if you got pregnant. You would simply have to figure out other ways to deal with that scenario. Just like with anything else in life...

That is a silly argument to be honest. The fact is we do know and if you do not think people were self aborting many many many years ago you are wrong. If abortion wasn't illegal women would just take herbs,hurt themselves etc etc in the past if people wanted to abort when abortion didn't exist,they would self abort.

There are no other ways to deal with my scenario. I am open to hear your ideas though on what I could do. I would need to be heavily medicated which is not allowed in pregnancy. Tell me how I could deal with it in a way that would not risk my life or my children's happiness? I am all ears.
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  #8  
April 22nd, 2007, 02:22 PM
Caeden'sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Well, that's where YOUR personal responsibility comes in. Don't get pregnant, and this won't even matter, right?

Well of course not. I am not planning too. I was just using an example to try to get others to see that abortion is not black and white. I do not know anyone else's situation so I just used what it would be like for me. I am safe but remember even being safe is not fool proof. Have you met my birth control child in my siggy? [/b]
No, i didn't know... But she is a cutie! And i know you're being safe, i'm not trying to attack you, i hope you don't think that... lol. Just responding to what you're putting out there.

Quote:
The baby can have a heartbeat as early as five weeks. Most people don't catch their pregnancies THAT early, let alone early enough to still have time to make an appointment, think things through, etc... So my guess is most aborted fetuses DID have heartbeats, which makes them just as alive as you or me.

Not really,baby needs me to live,not like me and you at all.[/b]
Yeah, but even after the baby is born, they still depend on you to survive, right? Left all alone, baby would die... They need mom for food, shelter, pretty much everything...


Quote:
Not really... I think if abortion was illegal and you never knew it any other way, you wouldvn't even consider it as an option if you got pregnant. You would simply have to figure out other ways to deal with that scenario. Just like with anything else in life...

That is a silly argument to be honest. The fact is we do know and if you do not think people were self aborting many many many years ago you are wrong. If abortion wasn't illegal women would just take herbs,hurt themselves etc etc in the past if people wanted to abort when abortion didn't exist,they would self abort.

There are no other ways to deal with my scenario. I am open to hear your ideas though on what I could do. I would need to be heavily medicated which is not allowed in pregnancy. Tell me how I could deal with it in a way that would not risk my life or my children's happiness? I am all ears.[/b]
Well, i'm not a doctor, so again... i really don't have those answers. I think that is something you'd have to talk to your doctors/psychiatrists about. But again, that is why you're being responsible in not putting yourself into that situation in the first place, which i applaud you for... That's really the best solution all around, right? People to take responsibility for themselves BEFORE being put in such dire straits?
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  #11  
April 22nd, 2007, 03:18 PM
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Yeah, but even after the baby is born, they still depend on you to survive, right? Left all alone, baby would die... They need mom for food, shelter, pretty much everything...

They do not need me,they just need a human.

To the bolded: Was that really necessary?

Excuse me? Was it necessary? Sorry,if I see it as a bunch of cells I have every right to call it so. I will not sugar coat my words because the PLers find it offensive. It really bugs me that I am not allowed to say a bunch of cells on a DEBATE board in case it offends. Can't handle that word,stay out of abortion threads. It is OK to say people are killing a child,murdering,ending a life,but it is not OK for me to say a bunch of cells?

And studies do show that the unborn DO experience

Show me studies from NONE pro life websites that tell me it is scientifically proving that a fetus under the age of 12 weeks gestation (can not abort after that over here unless extremere circumstances occur) can feel pain. I bet you I could find you many that say they do not. It is simple,we do not know.

I suffered from severe hyperemesis too (lost over 30lbs with my first, and just above 20lbs with my second), so I am not just saying this blindly

Add that on top of post natal depression,SEVERE OCD,I mean severe OCD,two special needs children with severe disability's,a partner with bi-polar,and an infant. I would never abort for HG alone.

No, i didn't know... But she is a cutie! smile.gif And i know you're being safe, i'm not trying to attack you, i hope you don't think that... lol. Just responding to what you're putting out there.

Thank you

Well, i'm not a doctor, so again... i really don't have those answers. I think that is something you'd have to talk to your doctors/psychiatrists about. But again, that is why you're being responsible in not putting yourself into that situation in the first place, which i applaud you for... That's really the best solution all around, right? People to take responsibility for themselves BEFORE being put in such dire straits?

The thing is I do talk to DR's and I KNOW there is nothing they could do to help bar put me in a mental hospital or just hope that I could function well enough to stay at home. I could not take my medication and there is nothing else I could take that would even touch my OCD. I have been very ill in pregnancy once and there was nothing that could be done.

Again BC babies do happen,and sometimes even the most responsible women can find themselves pregnant.

I guess we are not going to see eye to eye on this one,I didn't expect we would,but I just wanted to put this out here.

I am now off to bed. Goodnight
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  #12  
April 22nd, 2007, 03:25 PM
Mom2DavidandAaron's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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I'm gonna have to agree with Chloe and Caeden'sMama. If you're so sure this will hapen to you if you get pregnant again, then you can take severe measures for it not to happen again. There are vasectomies, ligations and- in extreme cases- hysterectomies. Obviously you're concious enough of your situation so you can do something about it before.
But in the case a pregnancy happened despite all these measures (which I find practically impossible, but I gess it could happen) then I'd also not think it's a good enough reason to have an abortion. Personally, I don't see abortion as black and white. I think when the mother's life is in danger (not merely her health, I'm talking about her life) then it's an option. If the baby isn't viable, I agree with abortion. I don't agree with abortion as a contraceptive method or because the pregancy is inconvinient.
Finally, the scenario you described is certainly difficult, but it's not impossible. There are ways to deal with that situation and to ease it up. If you give me a scenario where there's no way you cuold get help or where your other children would be endangered then I could agree to consider abortion as an option.

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  #13  
April 22nd, 2007, 03:30 PM
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Just some links CeCe to show that we can BOTH find studies to prove those points. I am now heading off to bed so I haven't read through them all and I am sure some are from pro choices too.

http://www.forbes.com/forbeslife/health/fe...cout532137.html

Foetuses cannot feel pain because it requires mental development that only occurs outside the womb, says a report in the British Medical Journal.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4905892.stm

Doctors to inform women seeking abortion after 20 weeks that the fetus can feel pain,

http://www.americanthinker.com/2006/..._and_pain.html

REMEMBER ABORTIONS OVER HERE TAKE PLACE WELL BEFORE THEN

The nerve connections necessary for processing pain in fetuses aren't complete before 26 weeks' gestation. Using painkillers before that stage [to sedate an unborn child before conducting an abortion] is scientifically unsound and may put women at unnecessary risk, according to researchers."
http://digg.com/general_sciences/Fetuses_C...Medical_Journal

Derbyshire examined the neurological and psychological evidence to support a concept of fetal pain. He says he concluded that although still immature, the neural circuitry necessary for processing pain can be considered complete by 26 weeks' gestation.
http://www.physorg.com/news64202288.html

http://www.nurse-anesthesia.org/showthread.php?p=8261

He examined the neurological and psychological evidence to support a concept of fetal pain.

Although still immature, the neural circuitry necessary for processing pain can be considered complete by 26 weeks' gestation, he explains. However, pain experience requires not only development of the brain but also development of the mind to accommodate the subjectivity of pain.
http://www.news-medical.net/?id=17576

If you're so sure this will hapen to you if you get pregnant again, then you can take severe measures for it not to happen again. There are vasectomies, ligations and- in extreme cases- hysterectomies. Obviously you're concious enough of your situation so you can do something about it before.

Yes and I do. I did say that SO is scheduled for the snip. This isn't about ME,I just used me as an example of why some women may abort.

I think when the mother's life is in danger (not merely her health, I'm talking about her life) then it's an option

Ok them,then you would agree to me getting one because my life would be in danger. Mental health issues that are untreated lead to a lot of suicides. It is just as valid reason to end a pregnancy as it is if a mothers was likely to die for physical reasons. If you do not think that a mental illness could put someones life at danger then you must not have suffered from suicidal thoughts.

Ok really off to bed now
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  #14  
April 22nd, 2007, 03:31 PM
eash's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Ultimately, it is up to you to make the decision between abortion and carrying the baby to term if you were to end up in that situation. It is also you that would have to live with the daily thoughts of that decision for some time or the rest of your life. The people, PL or PC, answering this poll won't be there as you lie awake at night questioning whether abortion was the right or wrong thing or wondering if your baby was a boy or girl or figuring out how old he/she would be.

I think that there are lots of PL who have thought about issues such as yours. I also believe there are a lot of PC who have thought about whether the fetus feels the pain of abortion. Again, though, does it matter? It is up to you, it is your body, your health, they are your children, and ultimately your choice. Until abortion is illegal, it will remain your choice and you will face the consequence of the choice whether it be positive or negative.

And to answer your question, if I were you, I would choose my health and well being above that of a fetus. I have been there and made that choice and I live with the thoughts of that choice every single day.
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  #17  
April 23rd, 2007, 01:35 AM
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CeCe I can find a lot of studies to back up my argument,you can yours. It proves nothing.

And yes, it is offensive and I don't think it should be posted. And I am not the only that agrees with this (there was an entire thread awhile back about what should be and should not be said). Murdering is also offensive and I do not use that word and I do not think it should be used.

Tact is important IMO, in these debates, and it just seemed like you just....disregarded anyone who has ever lost a baby (through whatever means) by calling the baby (or fetus, if you prefer) just a worthless bunch of cells that doesn't experience anything. Just like the PL needs to be tactful (by not using the term 'murder' or 'murderer'), so does (or should) the prochoice side. confused.gif


Well sorry but I disagree. Some people may not want to use those words but I am not going to stop. Where does it end? Maybe I am offended that someone called my hypothetical fetus my unborn child. I am not offended BTW but what if I was? People should stop using those words?

I do happen to think a fetus before 12 weeks gestation is a clump of cells,IT IS,it is what it is,you may still see that as life,and so do I,but it is still a clump of cells with the potential to be a child.

Sorry but YOU are reading too much into it and that is not my problem. I am a bit peed off that you think I am disregarding anyone who has lost a baby. I NEVER said they were worthless bunch of cells but they ARE cells,they start of as cells,correct? It is science sowhy on earth is it so wrong to call it exactly what it is? I would not dream of telling someone who miscarried that it was just a bunch of cells,so do not even go there CeCe,that is an issue you are putting onto me.

I happened to love my children from the day I found out I was pregnant,I love them when they were a bunch of cells
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  #18  
April 23rd, 2007, 02:21 AM
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Quote:
I do happen to think a fetus before 12 weeks gestation is a clump of cells,IT IS,it is what it is,you may still see that as life,and so do I,but it is still a clump of cells with the potential to be a child.[/b]
Sorry, but it really isn't... i have 10 and 11 week ultrasounds of my son where he looks like a fully formed baby. He had arms, legs, a head, and in those ultrasounds he was already moving and bouncing and waving... very active! Sure, in the first week or two the fetus is a clump of cells, but really... they grow so rapidly, it definitely is not that way for long. And definitely not by the time women are finding out they're pregnant. By then, they usually have heartbeats. So how can you say it's just a clump of cells? I mean, technically, i guess we are all just clumps of cells, but really... we're all so much more than that! And so are these fetuses...
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  #19  
April 23rd, 2007, 04:35 AM
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Sorry, but it really isn't... i have 10 and 11 week ultrasounds of my son where he looks like a fully formed baby. He had arms, legs, a head, and in those ultrasounds he was already moving and bouncing and waving... very active! Sure, in the first week or two the fetus is a clump of cells, but really... they grow so rapidly, it definitely is not that way for long. And definitely not by the time women are finding out they're pregnant. By then, they usually have heartbeats. So how can you say it's just a clump of cells? I mean, technically, i guess we are all just clumps of cells, but really... we're all so much more than that! And so are these fetuses...

Well that is your opninon and I do respect that you feel that way I too have had scans at 12 weeks gestation so I know what they look like but I still see it as a bunch of cells that are starting to form a human appearance.

I still think my living children should come first because their quality of life is better than a fetuses who is only beginning to look like a human. At 12 weeks old I believe they can not feel a thing and have no awareness,my children do. CeCe links have done nothing to convince me otherwise because I have read so many things from medical journals that supports my stance.
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  #20  
April 23rd, 2007, 05:48 AM
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I think Samu's story is a wonderful example of how abortion is a much more complicated issue than people sometimes realize. The decision to continue with, or abort, a pregnancy affects more people than just the mother and the embry, fetus, unborn child, etc.

Personally I would never suggest a mother sacrifice her mental or physical health for a pregnancy. Nor do I think it's a good idea to risk the health/future of the children who have already been born. Children, especially special needs children, need a mother and a stable enviornment more than they need a sibling.

I'm not trying to minimize the importance of the future child Samu would be carrying in this scenario, I just think a mother's first responsibility is to her already born family. Where would her children be if she killed herself or ended up in a mental institution? In both scenarios the whole family suffers. In the first the children are PERMANETLY deprived of their mother and the potential baby dies anyway. In the second she's still in no position to take care of her family. Who knows how long it would take for her to recover?

Yes people should take all measures to avoid a pregnancy when in this sort of situation. I think the point Samu was trying to make is that accidents can happen no matter how careful we try to be. Condoms fail, birth control fails, even rarely vasectomies and tubal ligations. Asking two people to never have sex just isn't realistic. In those sort of situations I think abortion would actually preserve life for the greatest amount of people.
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