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Abortion Debate

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  #21  
May 4th, 2007, 06:51 AM
chloe82
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Then I think he/she should not be a doctor as abortion is a medical procedure.[/b]
that's a little extreme, don't you think?
[/b]
No I don't think it's an extreme. If they really care about people, then they have an obligation to care about the medical procedure of pregnancy, let alone abortion. Pregnancy is not only a condition that needs medical care but it's a social and ethical condition as well. For a doctor to impose his/her morals onto others, then they need to look at the morals of the patients they are serving. Doesn't a patient deserve proper medical care? That's the bottom line.

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I have a question. Healthcare is free in Canada. So does that mean abortions are free too?

As far as the OP goes, I think doctors should be able to refuse if they choose to. But why not refer the patient to someone else?[/b]
Did you read my post about Dr. Henry Morgentaler?

He is still battling some provincial governments that don’t pay for abortions in private clinics (he now has eight across the country) – still railing against those who, in his view, throw roadblocks in the way of women who seek to end unwanted pregnancies. He remains on alert for anything that would further threaten the access that he fought so long to achieve, well aware that abortion foes are vocal and have the ear of many politicians.


[/b]
I can understand the point about how if your job requires you to do something you feel wrong about doing then maybe it's not the job for you. It's kinda like the gay marriage/judges issue....like as far as wondering if judges who are personally against gay marriage be forced to perform the ceremony...?? I would say no, they shouldn't have to, but at the same time if they refuse to fulfill the expectations of their profession according to the law then maybe it is up to those individuals to find a profession that doesn't compromise their personal beliefs.
As a former nurse, there were certain things I thought about...I worked in palliative care and sometimes wondered what I would do if euthanasia became legal. I would not have participated...and if ordered to, I would have found another department to work in. Same thing would have gone if I worked in obstetrics and was told to assist in an abortion...as long as legally allowable I would have refused, or found another department to work in, and if I was put in a legal position where I was obligated to, I would find another profession where I wouldn't be expected to do things I was morally against. But aye, there's the rub. If you push it the same problem is going to occur, is it not? I mean, if the fear is that allowing doctors to opt out means there won't be enough doctors around who are willing to perform the procedure...then if you REQUIRE doctors to perform it even if they disagree, thus leaving them the choice only to perform a procedure they morally have issue with, or NOT be a doctor anymore, and doctors/nurses end up leaving their profession as a result because they can't fulfill the obligations of their profession by law anymore, aren't you just going to end up with not only not enough doctors to perform abortions, but also not enough doctors OVERALL??? KWIM???
etalus, (the more I think about this the more I'm opposed to it) when you work in health care, there are a LOT of ethical issues that have to be dealt with. Doctors (and other health care workers) are making ethical decisions ALL THE TIME...they take a vow in which they promise to first and foremost do no harm...well if they firmly believe that performing an abortion is violating this vow shouldn't they have the right to decide that for themselves? Yes, for THEMSELVES.....they're not deciding it FOR the woman. The only way they would truly be imposing their morals upon the woman is if they tied her down to a hospital bed and forced her to have the baby. By not performing the procedure, they have made their own ethical decision and the ball remains in her court. She can find someone who IS willing to do it. Doctors have to be willing to use some of their own discretion...they cannot just be ordered to do anything that a patient wants them to do if they believe it violates their code of ethics. If someone comes in and asks a surgeon to please amputate their leg and the surgeon doesn't believe in the patient's reasons for doing so, they're not going to do it! If some other doctor wants to, that's their perogative isn't it?? They need to have some freedom in which to make decisions like that. You can't just draw up some sort of a law where when you decide to become a doctor/nurse you have to swear that if deemed medically necessary or if the patient demands it, you have to perform an abortion (or whatever else). I feel like doing so would not solve the perceived problem, it would just create an even more brutal shortage of health care providers, not just in terms of those who are willing to perform abortions, but OVERALL! I know if I had been told that in order to be a nurse I would have to be willing to assist with abortions in certain situations I wouldn't have been a nurse. It's too bad, seems like we'd lose a lot of great doctors and nurses that way. It's like saying, we know you perform 1000 great procedures, but because you're not willing to do this 1, you are not fit to do any of them. Do abortions or find another job??? I DO understand the principle behind the law but I don't think it's right and I don't think it would solve anything.
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  #22  
May 4th, 2007, 07:50 AM
mommyKathyX3
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How about if a doctor was a doctor before R vs W? So they didnt have to worry about whether they'd have to perform an abortion or not? OR like I asked before, how about if thier view changes cause of ANY reason. Should they give up thier career? I mean its not like become a doctor is a quick degree that you can get in a year or two.
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  #23  
May 4th, 2007, 08:02 AM
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If a procedure is free and legal but you can't find anyone willing to DO it, then why bother making it free and legal? People are going to have to jump through hoops to find someone willing to perform it. Their access to it is restricted.

But, no, I don't think doctors should be forced to perform abortions that are not medically necessary if they don't want to. Or C-sections. Or euathanasia, or any other procedure they might have ethical problems with.

If there is such a shortage of providers for abortions, maybe there should be a seperate school for, say, nurses, so those who want to learn how to do it, can learn how to do it. Or something like that, to increase the number of providers. It would have to be completely VOLUNTARY.[/b]
ITA. There are plenty of medical procedures that cross ethical boundries that not everyone is comfortable with. I see no practical reason to force anyone to do something that makes them uncomfortable. There are PLENTY of doctors who are more than willing to perform abortions, and there always will be.
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  #24  
May 4th, 2007, 09:50 AM
Mom2DavidandAaron's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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I can understand the point about how if your job requires you to do something you feel wrong about doing then maybe it's not the job for you. It's kinda like the gay marriage/judges issue....like as far as wondering if judges who are personally against gay marriage be forced to perform the ceremony...?? I would say no, they shouldn't have to, but at the same time if they refuse to fulfill the expectations of their profession according to the law then maybe it is up to those individuals to find a profession that doesn't compromise their personal beliefs.[/b]
But you have to realize that law and ethics aren't universal and change through time. You cannot tell a person that he shouldn't be a doctor because he's against abortion. What if in 10 years from now abortion is illegal? On the other hand, a person who's against euthanasia becomes a doctor and suddenly it becomes legal, should he go look for something else to do? I know the principle may sound fair, but in reality it isn't fair to tell anyone that they should do something they don't feel it's right.
And you raise an excellent point. Imagine the fallout of medical care if only the people willing to do anything could become doctors? I know so many amazing doctors that have very strong moral convictions and I cannot imagine what a loss it'll be if they had to resign to that profession.

Sharon
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  #25  
May 4th, 2007, 10:44 AM
chloe82
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I can understand the point about how if your job requires you to do something you feel wrong about doing then maybe it's not the job for you. It's kinda like the gay marriage/judges issue....like as far as wondering if judges who are personally against gay marriage be forced to perform the ceremony...?? I would say no, they shouldn't have to, but at the same time if they refuse to fulfill the expectations of their profession according to the law then maybe it is up to those individuals to find a profession that doesn't compromise their personal beliefs.[/b]
But you have to realize that law and ethics aren't universal and change through time. You cannot tell a person that he shouldn't be a doctor because he's against abortion. What if in 10 years from now abortion is illegal? On the other hand, a person who's against euthanasia becomes a doctor and suddenly it becomes legal, should he go look for something else to do? I know the principle may sound fair, but in reality it isn't fair to tell anyone that they should do something they don't feel it's right.
And you raise an excellent point. Imagine the fallout of medical care if only the people willing to do anything could become doctors? I know so many amazing doctors that have very strong moral convictions and I cannot imagine what a loss it'll be if they had to resign to that profession.

Sharon
[/b]
Haha, yeah I know, that's actually kinda what I was saying in my post....my point (which was maybe lost in my long, rambling post) is that I don't think it would be right at all to force doctors to perform abortions. So ITA agree with you, although in that little section that you quoted, I was just trying to acknowledge that I can understand mrobison's POV as well, even though I don't agree when it gets right down to it. KWIM?? I'm a little random today, I know.
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  #26  
May 4th, 2007, 06:04 PM
camsmommie's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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i have to disagree... if a dr studies in the OB field they must be able to put their own beliefs aside at the request of the patient..... if the dr didn't want to preform such acts then they shouldn't practice as OBGYN
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  #27  
May 4th, 2007, 07:55 PM
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Most OB's got into the field because they love taking care of women AND children. To abort a child may be a very hard issue for them to deal with, and could have longlasting effects. So if there is a choice to go see someone else I don't see the big deal. If we should not be able to force a women to carry a child that she chose to create, then how can we justify forcing a Dr. to perform an abortion if he doesn't feel comfortable with it..... the women chose to have sex and got pregnant, then doesn't want to do it, the doctor chose to be an OB, but doesn't want to abort a fetus. I see no difference. The psychological effects on the doctor to me outweigh the fact that the women will have to find another doctor.
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  #28  
May 4th, 2007, 08:46 PM
donomama
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No way!!! A doctor should never have to do something they are morally and ethically against. Most pro lifers see abortion as killing an innocent baby, something that is not easy to get over and just suck it up to do your job.
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  #29  
May 4th, 2007, 08:53 PM
chlodoll
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I think if a Doctor becomes and OBGYN then they should expect to deal with matters of abortion and I would think that most OBGYN's are Pro-Choice. I do think a doctor has a right to turn down a procedure but I think they should refer them to someone who can help them instead of leaving them out in the cold.
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  #30  
May 4th, 2007, 09:10 PM
donomama
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Most OB/GYNs don't do abortions around here anyway. You have to go to a special clinic.
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  #31  
May 4th, 2007, 09:15 PM
chlodoll
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I dont know any OBGYN's who do abortions in their clinics either. Perhaps if they were based out of a hospital?
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  #32  
May 6th, 2007, 03:26 PM
Ms.Michelle
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By convention in departments of obstetrics and gynecology, abortions are classified as gynecologic procedures. An induction at 19 weeks' EGA for lethal anomalies, even though carried out in the labor and delivery department using obstetrical language and tools, is classified as a gynecologic procedure. source's Author: Deborah Lyon, MD, Director, Division of Benign Gynecology, Associate Professor, Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University of Florida Health Science Center at Jacksonville. Deborah Lyon, MD, is a member of the following medical societies: American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, Association of American Medical Colleges, Association of Professors of Gynecology and Obstetrics, and Florida Medical Association
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  #33  
May 6th, 2007, 03:34 PM
Ms.Michelle
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i have to disagree... if a dr studies in the OB field they must be able to put their own beliefs aside at the request of the patient..... if the dr didn't want to preform such acts then they shouldn't practice as OBGYN[/b]
Exactly! Did you know medical schools are part of the problem? Report from McGill University
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  #34  
May 6th, 2007, 07:13 PM
Mom2DavidandAaron's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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i have to disagree... if a dr studies in the OB field they must be able to put their own beliefs aside at the request of the patient..... if the dr didn't want to preform such acts then they shouldn't practice as OBGYN[/b]
So you agree that if euthanasia becomes legal in the US, all doctors should be forced to perform it if a patient requests it?

Sharon
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  #35  
May 7th, 2007, 12:47 PM
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I believe if theres a doctor willing and able to preform it within two miles then they don't have to but all deserve the best medical care possible.
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  #36  
May 7th, 2007, 03:17 PM
*Leslie*'s Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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i have to disagree... if a dr studies in the OB field they must be able to put their own beliefs aside at the request of the patient..... if the dr didn't want to preform such acts then they shouldn't practice as OBGYN[/b]
So you agree that if euthanasia becomes legal in the US, all doctors should be forced to perform it if a patient requests it?

Sharon
[/b]
ABSOLUTELY NOT.... but I also don't think they should have to perform an abortion, as stated before.... noone should have to end anyone or anythings life.... these serious things can effect many people involved not just the one seeking the abortion, so all around I think it's better to just tell them that they will have to find another place.... shoot it isn't that hard, if you want that abortion bad enough then by gosh you can do the legwork to go find a place to get it done.....

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...they take a vow in which they promise to first and foremost do no harm...well if they firmly believe that performing an abortion is violating this vow shouldn't they have the right to decide that for themselves? Yes, for THEMSELVES.....they're not deciding it FOR the woman. The only way they would truly be imposing their morals upon the woman is if they tied her down to a hospital bed and forced her to have the baby. By not performing the procedure, they have made their own ethical decision and the ball remains in her court. She can find someone who IS willing to do it. Doctors have to be willing to use some of their own discretion...they cannot just be ordered to do anything that a patient wants them to do if they believe it violates their code of ethics[/b]
ITA and well put!!!
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