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Abortion Debate

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  #1  
April 30th, 2007, 10:53 AM
Mom2DavidandAaron's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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I live in mexico City and just recently abortion was legalized. To be honest, even if I'm against abortion, it wasn't a topic that I felt too passionately about. I'm a realist and I know that many people here still go to witch doctors less than qualified to perform abortions, I know the people who want an abortion would look everywhere for one and at least, this is a safe way.
Anyway, on friday I heard on the news that the mayor declared that a doctor cannot refuse to perform an abortion if asked to. This is anti constitutional, so two days later he retracted, but I couldn't help thinking. Would you support this position? Should doctors be legally obligated to perform a requested abortion even it goes against their beliefs or values? If not should they be obligated to refer the patient to a doctor who would do it or should they just refuse?

Personally, I think they should have absolute right to refuse without the need for a referral. The person that wants an abortion should find a doctor willing to do it for herself, IMO.

Sharon
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  #2  
April 30th, 2007, 11:14 AM
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I think they should be allowed to refuse giving an abortion if it goes against their personal morals. I also don't think that they should be obligated to give a referal to someone who does. If, for instance, I went to a therapist and I didn't like the way she conducted her session, I wouldn't ask her to give me a referal to someone else! I'd call my insurance up and see who else was available, KWIM?
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  #3  
April 30th, 2007, 12:33 PM
mommyKathyX3
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HE** NO! Sorry, but I feel really REALLY passionate that if a doc doesnt want to do ANY procedure he/she shouldnt be "obligated" to. ONLY in situations that it is an emergency and life and death situation should there be an exception. Otherwise, there is no reason a person can not find other docs to do it.
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  #4  
April 30th, 2007, 01:00 PM
mrobinson
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British perspective...

Quote:
Doctors have always been able to opt out of doing abortions on religious grounds. Since the 1990s they have also been able to label themselves "conscientious objectors", and the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists (RCOG) claims an increasing number do not want to carry out terminations for ethical reasons.

Richard Warren, the honorary secretary of the RCOG, said: "In the past, abortion was an accepted part of the workload. People did not like it but they accepted it was in the best interests of the woman concerned. Now we are seeing more doctors who are reluctant to be involved in the process."

Ann Furedi, the chief executive of the British Pregnancy Advisory Service, warned: "There is a real crisis looming. Unless we can motivate doctors to train in abortion, we may well face a situation in five years' time in which women's access to abortion is severely restricted."[/b]
Source


The British Pregnancy Advisory Service claims doctor's opting out of performing abortions to be an issue. This link claims there are no numbers to back that claim but do say Ninety per cent of terminations take place before 12 weeks when they are simple, low-tech procedures.. As a solution, they propose nurses and paramedics should be allowed to do it. "Our research published in The Lancet shows nurses and paramedics in Vietnam and South Africa do the work extremely successfully, but they are not allowed to here. This must change." A long time ago midwives did it.. I don't see why more can't as well..

Chief executive Ann Furedi said "The current crop of medical students have not themselves seen women dying slowly and painfully after self -induced and unsafe aborneurosurgeryin the UK- but if they went to the many countries overseas where abortion is still illegal or only available to rich people, they would see this.

Quote:
"Abortion is an absolutely essential, life-saving part of medical care - it may not be the most glamorous medical speciality on the face of it, compared to stem cell research or - but it is seen as heroic work by the women that it helps."

Dr Kate Paterson, a consultant obstetrician working in abortion care, said: "There are an awful lot of doctors already working helping women to get pregnant in the NHS and in the private IVF sector.

"There are a hell of a lot less who want to help women when they are pregnant and can't cope.

"There is a desperate need for this kind of work and women can be in really extreme situations."

A Department of Health spokesman said "We are aware that a minority of doctors choose to opt out from performing abortions, as they are legally entitled to do.[/b]
(From that same link.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OT: For a Canadian perspective, Sharron, I'd love to introduce Dr. Henry Morgentaler to you.

Quote:
A Polish Jew who survived the Auschwitz death camp (where he was tattooed with number 95077), Morgentaler has pointed many times to what he saw as one of the root causes of Hitler’s death machine – unwanted children who were fighting back against a family that abused them. "Well-loved children grow into adults who do not build concentration camps, do not rape and do not murder," Morgentaler said in June 2005 at the University of Western Ontario, where he was awarded his first honorary degree.

Then, on Jan. 28, 1988 – a day he calls the greatest of his life – the Supreme Court of Canada struck down Canada’s abortion law. That law, which required a woman who wanted an abortion to appeal to a three-doctor hospital abortion committee, was declared unconstitutional.

It was a huge victory for Morgentaler and his supporters. “Finally, we have freedom of reproduction in this country,” he said. He called it a victory for women, common sense and justice.

But the high court ruling did not specifically enshrine the right of a woman to have access to abortion. Rather it tossed out the federal law that regulated it; that made it like any other medical procedure that is governed by the principles of the Canada Health Act.

Morgentaler makes no apologies, calling them misguided. He rejects their view that an embryo is a baby; that ending a pregnancy is ending a life. A blueprint is not a building, he says, an egg is not a chicken. His religious opponents say they will continue to pray for him; all his opponents say they'll continue to fight.

Almost four decades after Dr. Henry Morgentaler first ignited a firestorm with his call for legal abortions, more than 100,000 Canadian women every year now get one. Almost a fifth of them take place in his clinics.[/b]
source

Ok back to the debate...
.. there are no laws restricting the provision of abortion services in Canada, and in theory, abortion is treated as any other medically necessary procedure. Unfortunately for million of women, access to abortion does not meet the standards of the Canada Health Act. Fundamentally, this deficiency is due to the shortage of trained medical professionals able to provide women with safe and legal abortions and abortion-related care in this country...

In Canada, most abortion providers are Family physicians or ob/gynaecologists. Although Ob/Gyn's are specifically trained and obliged to provide women with reproductive healthcare, only an estimated 20% will provide abortions in their career. Most family physicians in Canada either do not perform abortions, or they perform only a handful a year for their regular patients. Again, this is a result not only of the ongoing safety fears for the physician and her family and lack of training, but also the lack of prestige, financial reward, and institutional support associated with being an "abortion doctor."

.... Unfortunatley, some physcians restrict women's access to both contraception and abortion under the guise of a "moral imperative" often rooted in their religious beliefs. Such doctors not only refuse to perform abortions, they may even refuse to refer women for abortion.
source


Quote:
if a doc doesnt want to do ANY procedure he/she shouldnt be "obligated" to.[/b]
Then I think he/she should not be a doctor as abortion is a medical procedure.
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  #5  
April 30th, 2007, 01:17 PM
Mom2DavidandAaron's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Then I think he/she should not be a doctor as abortion is a medical procedure.[/b]
that's a little extreme, don't you think? Doctors usually become doctors out of respect for life, so if one of them believes life begins out conception out of religion or personal conviction, why should he/she be obligated to do something they view as murder? Of course, if there's a medical need for an abortion, there's no question about it, an abortion is a medical procedure. but if it's just out of convinience, many people- including doctors- should be able to refuse to act in a way they think is inmoral. Some doctors refuse to perform circumcisions, shouldn't they be able to? it's a medical procedure. I'm sure many doctors in Holland, Switzerlabnd and anywhere where euthanasia is legal refuse to do it. Should they be obligated to perform it even if they feel it's murder? Honestly, if you believe so hard in the right to one's body, that should include the right not to do something you find morally wrong. Or is it just pregnant women that have aright over their actions?

Sharon
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  #6  
April 30th, 2007, 01:23 PM
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I have a question. Healthcare is free in Canada. So does that mean abortions are free too?

As far as the OP goes, I think doctors should be able to refuse if they choose to. But why not refer the patient to someone else?
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  #7  
April 30th, 2007, 01:28 PM
mrobinson
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Quote:
Quote:
Then I think he/she should not be a doctor as abortion is a medical procedure.[/b]
that's a little extreme, don't you think?
[/b]
No I don't think it's an extreme. If they really care about people, then they have an obligation to care about the medical procedure of pregnancy, let alone abortion. Pregnancy is not only a condition that needs medical care but it's a social and ethical condition as well. For a doctor to impose his/her morals onto others, then they need to look at the morals of the patients they are serving. Doesn't a patient deserve proper medical care? That's the bottom line.

Quote:
I have a question. Healthcare is free in Canada. So does that mean abortions are free too?

As far as the OP goes, I think doctors should be able to refuse if they choose to. But why not refer the patient to someone else?[/b]
Did you read my post about Dr. Henry Morgentaler?

He is still battling some provincial governments that don’t pay for abortions in private clinics (he now has eight across the country) – still railing against those who, in his view, throw roadblocks in the way of women who seek to end unwanted pregnancies. He remains on alert for anything that would further threaten the access that he fought so long to achieve, well aware that abortion foes are vocal and have the ear of many politicians.

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  #8  
April 30th, 2007, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
I have a question. Healthcare is free in Canada. So does that mean abortions are free too?

As far as the OP goes, I think doctors should be able to refuse if they choose to. But why not refer the patient to someone else?[/b]
Did you read my post about Dr. Henry Morgentaler?

He is still battling some provincial governments that don’t pay for abortions in private clinics (he now has eight across the country) – still railing against those who, in his view, throw roadblocks in the way of women who seek to end unwanted pregnancies. He remains on alert for anything that would further threaten the access that he fought so long to achieve, well aware that abortion foes are vocal and have the ear of many politicians.


[/b]
Yes, I just found it confusing.

They are free but people don't have ready access to them? That is what I am getting from this, correct me if I'm wrong.
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  #9  
April 30th, 2007, 01:52 PM
mrobinson
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They are free but people don't have ready access to them? That is what I am getting from this, correct me if I'm wrong.[/b]
Exactly. There are many reasons why, including geographical. This link is only three pages long and explains it. Also, there are places that don't have it for free. That's the private clinics referred to that Dr. Henry Morgentaler is fighting to erase.

SC-girl, http://www.prochoice.org/canada/regional.html (Another link)
In Canada, even though there is no law restricting abortion, access to abortion care remains a problem for many women. There is a shortage of trained abortion providers; abortions are not fully funded in all provinces and territories; funded abortions are unavailable in some areas, there is no inter-provincial billing for abortions; and in some provinces there are limits on the number of abortions allowed in facilities in a given year
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  #10  
April 30th, 2007, 02:05 PM
Mom2DavidandAaron's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
No I don't think it's an extreme. If they really care about people, then they have an obligation to care about the medical procedure of pregnancy, let alone abortion. Pregnancy is not only a condition that needs medical care but it's a social and ethical condition as well. For a doctor to impose his/her morals onto others, then they need to look at the morals of the patients they are serving. Doesn't a patient deserve proper medical care? That's the bottom line.[/b]
So what you're saying is that you can impose your morals by obligating to do something they think is wrong, but they cannot impose their morals by refusing to do something they think is wrong, right? So this imposition is only valid for the woman, but not for the doctor? And how is it that refusing to act in a certain way is imposing while forcing someone to act in a certain way isn't?
Are you honestly suggesting that our ethics and morals shouldn't interfere with our professional lives? Should we all be free to act as we please professionally speaking because there's no place for personal morals in the workplace? I'm not sure I'd like someone who can so easily do something he believes is wrong as my doctor. Or are you suggesting that only those that are pro-choice should be doctors? Any pro-life people should find something else to do?
But you didn't answer my questions, should a doctor be forced to perform a circumcision he believes is morally wrong? Should he be forced to commit assisted suicide even if he feels it's murder? Are you suggesting that anti-circs and anti-euthanasia people shouldn't be doctors as well? Or it only when it comes to abortion? Why should the doctor see and respect his patients morals, but the patient cannot extend the same courtesy and respect her doctors morals? He's not telling her not to get an abortion, he's telling her he won't perform one, but she's free to go to someone else. Somehow he doesn't have that same freedom.
I do have to say I find this position very hypocritical. Usually pro-choice people want the rights of women over their bodies respected, but somehow this same rights and respect doesn't apply to other people and their bodies and actions. How condescending is that?


Sharon
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  #11  
April 30th, 2007, 02:09 PM
mommyKathyX3
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Say a doc became a doctor and was an awesome doctor and then he changes his belief about abortion, should he give up his career? I mean if he morally thinks its wrong, he should stop being a doctor? I mean I was thinking of going to school as a nurse (specifically in Ob/Gyn) when I was younger, and realized I may be put into certian situations that may involve abortion, and THAT is the main reason I decided against it when I was younger. I can see a doc doing this, but how about if he changes his mind? Let me make sure I am clear in making sure you know I mean elective abortions. Things like medically necessary abortions (such as ectopic) I wouldnt include in this category.

Think about it though, do you REALLY want a doc who is not comfortable doing a procedure DOING it to you, espeically something like an abortion? This could be for your own protection. People cant help thier feelings, and they can to a point put them aside, but not usually about something like abortion that most people feel VERY strongly against.
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  #12  
April 30th, 2007, 02:11 PM
Mom2DavidandAaron's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Yes, I just found it confusing.

They are free but people don't have ready access to them? That is what I am getting from this, correct me if I'm wrong.[/b]
Well, I'm in a completely different country here, but from what I read he has private clinics. At least here, private clinics are a completely different story that public, government facilities. Private institutions are free to make their own rules (within the country's legality, of course), can refuse patients at their discretion and don't really abide by the set of rules set by the public sector.
When I said that abortion became legal here in Mexico City, it means that it's now a free, accepted procedure for the public sector, in the government hospitals. Before that, people could go to a private clinic and have one, at great expense. Those who couldn't afford it, had to look somewhere else. Now it's free, in the FREE clinics. It's not free in private clinics, KWIM? The same goes for refusing to perform one. Private doctors are free to reject patients as they see fit, for whatever reason. Just as any other profession can deny serving a customer. Government doctros aren't that free to do that.
Maybe it's a similar situation, or I'm just reading the posts too fast today

Sharon
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  #13  
April 30th, 2007, 02:26 PM
mrobinson
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Quote:
So what you're saying is that you can impose your morals by obligating to do something they think is wrong, but they cannot impose their morals by refusing to do something they think is wrong, right? So this imposition is only valid for the woman, but not for the doctor? And how is it that refusing to act in a certain way is imposing while forcing someone to act in a certain way isn't? Why should the doctor see and respect his patients morals, but the patient cannot extend the same courtesy and respect her doctors morals? He's not telling her not to get an abortion, he's telling her he won't perform one, but she's free to go to someone else. Somehow he doesn't have that same freedom.[/b]
What is the medical profession's mandate? It's to give medical care. If the doctor doesn't see how pregnancy is a medical condition worthy of abortion as an option, then they are allowing some moral conviction cloud their ability to do their professional mandate. If they don't like it, they don't have to be doctor's. I couldn't be a lawyer because I can't give some people representation they deserve.

Quote:
Are you honestly suggesting that our ethics and morals shouldn't interfere with our professional lives?[/b]
Why would people choose a profession they can't morally agree with?

Quote:
Should we all be free to act as we please professionally speaking because there's no place for personal morals in the workplace?[/b]
Of course there is, just pick the profession you morally agree with.

Quote:
Or are you suggesting that only those that are pro-choice should be doctors? Any pro-life people should find something else to do?[/b]
If a doctor imposes their pro-life views on their patients, yes they should find something else to do.

Quote:
But you didn't answer my questions, should a doctor be forced to perform a circumcision he believes is morally wrong?[/b]
I didn't answer it because I thought you'd understand. I personally don't agree with circumcision but if I was a doctor, I would have to look beyond my moral standings and look at it in a medically professional light. If this patient is going to get cut, as his doctor, I would make sure that cut got the best medical care possible.

Quote:
Should he be forced to commit assisted suicide even if he feels it's murder?[/b]
I don't understand your question. Why would anyone be forced to kill themselves, medically speaking?

Quote:
Are you suggesting that anti-circs and anti-euthanasia people shouldn't be doctors as well? Or it only when it comes to abortion?[/b]
I don't understand your questions. Abortion is legal because it's a medical condition. Euthanasia isn't legal so no doctor should be forced to perform it.

Quote:
I do have to say I find this position very hypocritical. Usually pro-choice people want the rights of women over their bodies respected, but somehow this same rights and respect doesn't apply to other people and their bodies and actions. How condescending is that?[/b]
Well, if you look at women, their reproductive rights and medical access, I would say it's reserved where women are given second-class priority. Geez, we don't have control over anything without politicans or the church having an opinion. Interesting how automatically it's ok to judge a women's medical health. That's condescending.

Quote:
Well, I'm in a completely different country here, but from what I read he has private clinics.[/b]
He is fighting against private clinics so they can all be public.
He is still battling some provincial governments that don’t pay for abortions in private clinics (he now has eight across the country) – still railing against those who, in his view, throw roadblocks in the way of women who seek to end unwanted pregnancies. He remains on alert for anything that would further threaten the access that he fought so long to achieve, well aware that abortion foes are vocal and have the ear of many politicians.




Quote:
I mean I was thinking of going to school as a nurse (specifically in Ob/Gyn) when I was younger, and realized I may be put into certian situations that may involve abortion, and THAT is the main reason I decided against it when I was younger.[/b]
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  #14  
April 30th, 2007, 02:53 PM
Mom2DavidandAaron's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Why would people choose a profession they can't morally agree with?

Because all people are different and all professions are different. There isn't a one set of values for one specific profession. A person doesn't have to choose his/her profession based on his/her set of values, but rather chooses a profession based on his abilities and interests and applies his/her set of values to that chosen profession. Do all doctors have the same set of values? Certainly not. Neither do lawyers, actors, CEOs, engineers, architects and politicians. it's ridicukous to asume that a person has to have a certain set of beliefs to be able to properly perform a profession.
Just a few paragraphs down you complain: " Geez, we don't have control over anything without politicans or the church having an opinion". Well, for someone who believes that, you're very quick to take away a person's right and control to choose whatever profession they like.
Stores can refuse service, so can restaurants, airplanes and hotels. Why can't doctors?

If a doctor imposes their pro-life views on their patients, yes they should find something else to do.

Wow... how condescending. That's the pro-choice version of "if you don't want to get pregnant, find something else to do".
And again, how is refusing to perform a procedure "imposing" his pro-life views? Why isn't the patient then imposing his pro-choice views as well? If the woman feels judged by a simple refusal, then maybe she should search her own feelings, not force a doctor to do something he thinks is wrong. The doctor isn't giving her advice against abortion, he's not ensuring she doesn't get one. he's simply saying HE won't perform it, but she's free to go to a doctor whose morals allow for abortion. How exactly is that imposing? I'm sorry, but legally forcing someone to do something against his wishes IS imposing. Refusing to do something isn't imposing on anyone as yo ucan always find someone else to do it.


I didn't answer it because I thought you'd understand. I personally don't agree with circumcision but if I was a doctor, I would have to look beyond my moral standings and look at it in a medically professional light. If this patient is going to get cut, as his doctor, I would make sure that cut got the best medical care possible.

Quote:
Should he be forced to commit assisted suicide even if he feels it's murder?
I don't understand your question. Why would anyone be forced to kill themselves, medically speaking?

Quote:
Are you suggesting that anti-circs and anti-euthanasia people shouldn't be doctors as well? Or it only when it comes to abortion?[/b]
I don't understand your questions. Abortion is legal because it's a medical condition. Euthanasia isn't legal so no doctor should be forced to perform it.[/b]

So you'd ignore your own set of moral values to do something you think is wrong just because you think that's what you "should" be doing in your profession? How strong are those convictions then? So if any person comes to you and asks you to do something that you believe it's morally wrong, but because it's legal, you'll do it just because?
Euthanasia is legal in many countries. If you lived in Switzerland, would you just help someone kill himself because it's legal there and all doctors should be able to do it? Should only doctors that can put aside their morals and commit what they basically think is murder without a second thought be allowed to practice medicine in these countries? Or should a doctor be able to refuse?
Now, abortion as a medical needed procedure is another thing. That's abortion as a medical treatment. No one should be refused a medical treatment. Abortion as contraceptive method is something else. That's where the whole pro-choice pro-life issue is divided and that's where Ithink a doctor can refuse to perform it. It's not medically indcated, it's not a treatment, it's not necessary. A doctor can refuse performing any other medical procedure he believes it's not necessary (like, I mentioned, circumcision). If you have a doctor that's against vaccinations, you can't force him to give your child a shot, you'll have to find a doctor willing to do it. Why is abortion an exception?
Furthermore, you said that as a doctor, you'd like your patient to have the best possible care. Do you honestly think that "best medical care" is asking a doctor to go against his morals? Or is it better medical care to find someone that'll have a more positive attitude towards the patient's situation, not to mention more experience? I know my OB doesn't do abortions, I'd never dream of going to him even if he was obligated to perfomr it. Oviosuly he doesn't have the same experience as someone who doesn't think aborition is wrong and performs it more often.

Well, if you look at how women, their reproductive rights and medical access, I would say it's reserved where women are given second-class priority. Geez, we don't have control over anything without politicans or the church having an opinion.

And your solution then is doing exactly the same thing to everyone else? Because women haven't had their rights respected, the best way to fight it is by taking away the rights of everyone else? What makes the reproductive rights of women more important than the rights of the rest of the population?
How do you honestly expect to gain more respect by showing less respect? Is tit for tat

Sharon

edited to fix the quotes
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  #15  
April 30th, 2007, 03:05 PM
Mom2DavidandAaron's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Oh darn! I just realized that while editing my PP I accidentally deleted something I wrote.

Anyway, I was going to say that it's ridiculous to ask a person to choose a profession based on what they think is moral or not. Anyone, regardless of their religiosu, ethical and moral values is free to choose their career. I believe it's the patient the one who has to find a doctor that agrees with her beliefs.
My OB, for example besides not performing abortions (unless medically indicated) also doesn't believe it's right to have a C-section out of convinience. There are other doctors that will schedule a C-section at a time that's good for both himself and the patient, but my doctor doesn't do that. No one should force him to go against that. If a woman wants to have a scheduled C-section at a convinient time, she can go find another doctor.
However, that doesn't mean that he doesn't do C-section- both my babies had to be C-sections. When it's medically indicated, he's all for it. To me that's a doctor that I agree with ethicaly and morally and so I chose to go to him. I'd never c onsider going to the one OB that's famous here for delivering all his babies on wednesdays and avoiding surprise labors. I don't agree with his beleifs and his ideas and I won't force him into agreeing with mine. So I go and find someone I can relate to and have a respectful relationship with.

Sharon
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  #16  
April 30th, 2007, 03:16 PM
mrobinson
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Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
Why would people choose a profession they can't morally agree with?[/b]
Because all people are different and all professions are different. There isn't a one set of values for one specific profession. A person doesn't have to choose his/her profession based on his/her set of values, but rather chooses a profession based on his abilities and interests and applies his/her set of values to that chosen profession. Do all doctors have the same set of values? Certainly not. Neither do lawyers, actors, CEOs, engineers, architects and politicians. it's ridiculous to asume that a person has to have a certain set of beliefs to be able to properly perform a profession.
Just a few paragraphs down you complain: " Geez, we don't have control over anything without politicans or the church having an opinion". Well, for someone who believes that, you're very quick to take away a person's right and control to choose whatever profession they like.
Stores can refuse service, so can restaurants, airplanes and hotels. Why can't doctors?
And again, how is refusing to perform a procedure "imposing" his pro-life views? Why isn't the patient then imposing his pro-choice views as well?[/b][/quote]
Because ethically they have to provide medical services. They don't have the right to deny some people medical care. They do, otherwise women who want full hysterocomies would get them. (Doctor's feel that women will change their minds so refuse to do them withouth the woman already having kids.) Do you think that's fair? What you don't realize is the doctors already have the control to refuse treatment. I just don't agree with them forcing their morals on my body. If women could go to another doctor, they would but they can't always do that. There are so many doctors forcing their morals on this issue and other issues in regards to my body.


Quote:
If the woman feels judged by a simple refusal, then maybe she should search her own feelings, not force a doctor to do something he thinks is wrong.[/b]
Because she has searched her feelings and is looking for medical treatment. If a doctor is pre-judging her reason for getting an abortion, then maybe he needs to look his feelings at whether or not she/he has the patient's best interest at heart?

Quote:
The doctor isn't giving her advice against abortion, he's not ensuring she doesn't get one. he's simply saying HE won't perform it, but she's free to go to a doctor whose morals allow for abortion. How exactly is that imposing? I'm sorry, but legally forcing someone to do something against his wishes IS imposing. Refusing to do something isn't imposing on anyone as yo ucan always find someone else to do it.[/b]
Actually there aren't the options you speak of. If you read my previous posts, there aren't enough doctors to perform abortions. Sometimes there are no options but this one doctor. That is imposing the moral beliefs on that patient.

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So you'd ignore your own set of moral values to do something you think is wrong just because you think that's what you "should" be doing in your profession? How strong are those convictions then? So if any person comes to you and asks you to do something that you believe it's morally wrong, but because it's legal, you'll do it just because?[/b]
My moral conviction in universal health care has to be top priority to me if I'm a doctor. A doctor who refuses to give a patient care doesn't have universal health care as their top priority. I personally don't believe in IVF but I don't judge anyone for using it. That's the difference. I don't impose my values over health care.

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Euthanasia is legal in many countries. If you lived in Switzerland, would you just help someone kill himself because it's legal there and all doctors should be able to do it? Should only doctors that can put aside their morals and commit what they basically think is murder without a second thought be allowed to practice medicine in these countries? Or should a doctor be able to refuse?[/b]
If I was a doctor in Switzerland, I would help them because my first job is to provide health care ~ even if that means they die. If I felt I couldn't, I wouldn't be a doctor.

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Now, abortion as a medical needed procedure is another thing. That's abortion as a medical treatment. No one should be refused a medical treatment. Abortion as contraceptive method is something else. That's where the whole pro-choice pro-life issue is divided and that's where Ithink a doctor can refuse to perform it. It's not medically indcated, it's not a treatment, it's not necessary. A doctor can refuse performing any other medical procedure he believes it's not necessary (like, I mentioned, circumcision). If you have a doctor that's against vaccinations, you can't force him to give your child a shot, you'll have to find a doctor willing to do it. Why is abortion an exception?[/b]
You see I don't think any doctor should be allowed to have choice, but you do. I don't have an exception.

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Furthermore, you said that as a doctor, you'd like your patient to have the best possible care. Do you honestly think that "best medical care" is asking a doctor to go against his morals? Or is it better medical care to find someone that'll have a more positive attitude towards the patient's situation, not to mention more experience? I know my OB doesn't do abortions, I'd never dream of going to him even if he was obligated to perfomr it. Oviosuly he doesn't have the same experience as someone who doesn't think aborition is wrong and performs it more often.[/b]
Obviously if all OB/GYN's are obiligated, then you wouldn't have choice but aren't all OB/GYN's trained to do it, whether or not they morally agree with it?

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Well, if you look at how women, their reproductive rights and medical access, I would say it's reserved where women are given second-class priority. Geez, we don't have control over anything without politicans or the church having an opinion.[/b]
And your solution then is doing exactly the same thing to everyone else? Because women haven't had their rights respected, the best way to fight it is by taking away the rights of everyone else? What makes the reproductive rights of women more important than the rights of the rest of the population?
How do you honestly expect to gain more respect by showing less respect? Is tit for tat
[/b]
I don't want to take rights away from doctors. They can choose to be doctors. Women's reproductive rights aren't more important than the rights of non-doctors. Reproductive rights need to be seen as a basic fundamental right for every woman to have medical access too. Right now, it's not.

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Oh darn! I just realized that while editing my PP I accidentally deleted something I wrote.

Anyway, I was going to say that it's ridiculous to ask a person to choose a profession based on what they think is moral or not. Anyone, regardless of their religiosu, ethical and moral values is free to choose their career. I believe it's the patient the one who has to find a doctor that agrees with her beliefs.
My OB, for example besides not performing abortions (unless medically indicated) also doesn't believe it's right to have a C-section out of convinience. There are other doctors that will schedule a C-section at a time that's good for both himself and the patient, but my doctor doesn't do that. No one should force him to go against that. If a woman wants to have a scheduled C-section at a convinient time, she can go find another doctor.
However, that doesn't mean that he doesn't do C-section- both my babies had to be C-sections. When it's medically indicated, he's all for it. To me that's a doctor that I agree with ethicaly and morally and so I chose to go to him. I'd never c onsider going to the one OB that's famous here for delivering all his babies on wednesdays and avoiding surprise labors. I don't agree with his beleifs and his ideas and I won't force him into agreeing with mine. So I go and find someone I can relate to and have a respectful relationship with.

Sharon[/b]
C-sections don't have the stigma that abortions have.. I posted links illustrating the extreme stigma abortions have and why that impact is being felt.
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  #17  
April 30th, 2007, 03:40 PM
Mom2DavidandAaron's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Because ethically they have to provide medical services. They don't have the right to deny some people medical care. They do, otherwise women who want full hysterocomies would get them. (Doctor's feel that women will change their minds so refuse to do them withouth the woman already having kids.) Do you think that's fair? What you don't realize is the doctors already have the control to refuse treatment. I just don't agree with them forcing their morals on my body. If women could go to another doctor, they would but they can't. There are so many doctors forcing their morals on this issue.[/b]
I completely realize that you don't want anyone with control over your body. But then how can you justify taking the control for their actions away from THEM? Yes, they have the right to refuse treatment just as you have the right to refuse treatment. Would you like it if it wasn't acceptable for the patient to refuse a treatment he/she disagrees with? Or the right to look for a second opinion? Heaven forbid, that would be a totalitarian regime.
The same is when you cannot give the same courtesy to another person because you disagree with their POV. You don't want them to force their morals on your body, but you don't have a problem forcing your morals on them. Telling you find a doctor that would be more willing to fulfill your needs isn't taking control over your body. You still have the option to find someone who'll agree with you. maybe it's difficult, but the option is there, no one's taking that away from you. What if their conviction comes from religious beliefs? Don't you live in a country where there's freedom of religion? I do. No one has the right to make me violate my religious beliefs to prove they have rights over their bodies. No one has the right to make me eat pork even if I choose to become a chef (ok, I need coffee...) Are you saying that orthodox Jews and Christians shouldn't be allowed to be doctors? Should medicine be religiously discriminating because some women may feel judged?

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Because she has searched her feelings and is looking for medical treatment. If a doctor is pre-judging her reason for getting an abortion, then maybe he needs to look his feelings at whether or not she/he has the patient's best interest at heart?[/b]
You speak of medical treatment. Is there a condition that requires an abortion? Is her life in any danger from that pregnancy? If so, by all means abortion IS a medical treatment that has to be done. I'd still prefer to have a more experienced doctor performing it, but in that case any doctor is morally obligated to give the best possible medical care.
But when an abortion is done for convinience, then it's a medical procedure, not a medical treatment and the doctor is free to refuse it because it's not a treatment for a medical condition.

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Actually there aren't the options you speak of. If you read my previous posts, there aren't enough doctors to perform abortions. There are no option but this one doctor. That is imposing the moral beliefs on that patient.[/b]
I think you're speaking of one specific case. Most of the time it's easy to find another doctor. Maybe what we should be asking is why is there only ONE doctor willing to do it? Maybe the morals of the profession are not in favor of abortion then, even if it's legal?

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My moral conviction in universal health care has to be top priority to me if I'm a doctor. A doctor who refuses to give a patient care doesn't have universal health care as their top priority. I personally don't believe in IVF but I don't judge anyone for using it. That's the difference. I don't impose my values over health care.[/b]
Again you fail to explain to me why refusing to do something is imposing. I'm sorry, but YOU are th eone imposing to the medical profession. You feel they should perform certain actions they find wrong and that IS imposing. Simply refusing to do something isn't imposing.

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You see I don't think any doctor should be allowed to have choice, but you do. I don't have an exception.[/b]
I'm sorry, but it seems to me you think everyone else's moral values are worthless and should be disregarded as easily as you can yours. Not all people can do that and that doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to practice a profession they love. That's imposing and that's taking rights and control away from people. You complain of that a lot and yet you think that's the way it should be for others.

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Obviously if all OB/GYN's are obiligated, then you wouldn't have choice but aren't all OB/GYN's trained to do it, whether or not they morally agree with it?[/b]
Trained to do it doesn't mean much. I went to med school for three years, that doesn't mean I have the necessary experience to perfomr a surgery even if at some point I was trained to do it.
When I choice my son's mohel, I chose the onewith the best credentials, who had the most experience and, IMO, the most knowledge. I'd like the same for all my procedures, not simply someone who at some poitn was trained to do it.

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I don't want to take rights away from doctors. They can choose to be doctors. Women's reproductive rights aren't more important than the rights of non-doctors. Reproductive rights need to be seen as a basic fundamental right for every woman to have medical access too. Right now, it's not.[/b]
Actually, you are taking rights away from doctors. You're taking the right of many people to BE doctors, you're taking a doctor's right to change his POV, you're taking away the right from religious people from becoming doctor (seeing as most are usually against abortion), you are taking the right away from doctors to be human beings and have beliefs and ideas. You're taking away quite afew rights in your quest to ensure the rights of others.

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C-sections don't have the stigma that abortions have.. I posted links illustrating the extreme stigma abortions have and why that impact is being felt.[/b]
You haven't been in a childbirth choices debate, have you? People are VERY judgmental and VERY critical of women who choose to have a C-section out of convinience.
Anyway, I wasn't comparing the two procedure. I was simply stating that doctors have a right to refuse to perform any procedure that it's not medically indicated- like circumcision, like ear piercing, like elective C-sections. Somehow yo ufeel abortion should be the exception and should be treated as a life saving procedure (which a doctor cannot refuse to do) when in fact, it's not.
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  #18  
April 30th, 2007, 07:51 PM
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I think at the very least a doctor should be willing to point a patient in the direction of someone who will perform the procedure. I realize they don't have to, but I believe they should. This extends to more than just abortions.

I really don't think it's a doctor's place to make a moral judgement on my body. It reminds me of the pharmacists who refused to fill birth control prescriptions.
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  #19  
May 2nd, 2007, 02:55 PM
mrobinson
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Sharon, I really feel like you and I are going in circles. You feel doctors should have choice. I feel that there aren't enough doctors to do that. Otherwise we are just saying the same thing over and over again.

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I think at the very least a doctor should be willing to point a patient in the direction of someone who will perform the procedure. I realize they don't have to, but I believe they should. This extends to more than just abortions.

I really don't think it's a doctor's place to make a moral judgement on my body. It reminds me of the pharmacists who refused to fill birth control prescriptions.[/b]
It's the exact same thing.
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  #20  
May 4th, 2007, 05:17 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,780
If a procedure is free and legal but you can't find anyone willing to DO it, then why bother making it free and legal? People are going to have to jump through hoops to find someone willing to perform it. Their access to it is restricted.

But, no, I don't think doctors should be forced to perform abortions that are not medically necessary if they don't want to. Or C-sections. Or euathanasia, or any other procedure they might have ethical problems with.

If there is such a shortage of providers for abortions, maybe there should be a seperate school for, say, nurses, so those who want to learn how to do it, can learn how to do it. Or something like that, to increase the number of providers. It would have to be completely VOLUNTARY.
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