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Heavy drinking/drug use while pregnant


Abortion Debate

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  #21  
May 7th, 2007, 07:14 PM
Caeden'sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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of course its not right and should never happen, but it shouldn't be a law...[/b]
Why not? Just curious...


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Right... let's take the side of the selfish mother who cannot even get her nose out of the Coke line long enough to worry about her baby's future. That life is waaaaay more important than the innocent baby that'll be affected for the rest of his life.[/b]
yes because it may not survive as sad as it is
[/b][/quote]

And you're OKAY with that??!
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  #22  
May 7th, 2007, 07:47 PM
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And you're OKAY with that??![/b]
as horrible as it sounds yes. I have to be because I'm not in control of anothers body.
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  #23  
May 7th, 2007, 07:56 PM
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
And you're OKAY with that??![/b]
as horrible as it sounds yes. I have to be because I'm not in control of anothers body.
[/b][/quote]

Wow... Well, i guess there's just nothing more to say to you if you're THAT cold that you can't care about an innocent little baby.
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  #24  
May 8th, 2007, 04:50 AM
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Here's a question.

Let's say mom is such an addict that her baby dies in utero DUE TO her drug use. Should she be charged? What if the baby is only 8-12 weeks? What if the baby is 30+ weeks and could have lived outside the womb?

If you think she should be charged, why would it be okay for her to have an abortion but NOT to use excessive drugs? The end result being the same.

And if you don't think she should be charged, can you really defend her actions, as reprehensible as they are, without any moral qualms?

I'm pro-choice but I really can't debate this too much because I end up agreeing with the other side to a great extent.
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  #25  
May 8th, 2007, 05:28 AM
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Being pro-choice does not mean that I want every fetus conceived harmed and/or killed, why is that so impossible to understand? It doesn't mean that I am pushing pregnant friends through the planned parenthood doors describing the fun and wonderful amusement that is abortion. It doesn't mean that with my pregnancies that I drank, smoked or snorted coke just because it was "my body".

So, with that being said, I do not think it is okay for a woman to harm a fetus through alcohol or drug use that she has commited to carrying to term. Once you have made that decision you have a responsibility to protect the potential. Technically, yes, it is a woman's choice to do so, it still is her body and her choice. Would I support her? No. Would I encourage it? No. I don't see it as the same as abortion, at all. Abortion terminates the pregnancy, drugs and alcohol can cause life long damaging effects from the fetal stage through adulthood. If a woman commits to maintaining her pregnancy, then she is morally obligated to make certain sacrifices which could cause harm to the fetus. I won't go so far as to say that we need more laws governing our actions, but only that she has a moral obligation.
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  #26  
May 8th, 2007, 06:09 AM
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I think Stacy summed up my feelings.

If your going to drink or do drugs, and have no intent of trying to do GOOD by the unborn, why not just have an abortion? I've always considered myself "pro-life/baby", but It hurts me more to see a baby born addicted to drugs, or seeing a 30 year old who was born with FAS, have the mental age of a <15 year old [and this girl is a great person, but its still very sad to see some of the things she goes though in daily life because of the FAS]. My mom got pregnant 3 times with her boyfriend, and because of the alcohol use miscarried each time [she was still in the 1st trimester...but still her intent was to keep the child].
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  #27  
May 8th, 2007, 08:41 AM
Caeden&#39;sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Wow... So i guess murder ISN'T one of the worst crimes after all...

I still fail to see how damaging a fetus is somehow worse than killing it.
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  #28  
May 8th, 2007, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Wow... So i guess murder ISN'T one of the worst crimes after all...[/b]
Hmmm, let's think logically. Murder is illegal, abortion is not, therefore abortion is not murder.

Quote:
I still fail to see how damaging a fetus is somehow worse than killing it. [/b]
Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy. You can fancy it up with all the cute little baby murdering imagery, but it is not that dramatic. It is an embryo, a fetus, a clump of cells, a potential life. Irresponsible behavior of a woman who has commited herself and her body to carrying a pregnancy to term can cause damage to the fetus which can develop into permanent and irreparable damage that can carry on through infancy to adulthood.

This way of thinking is just ignorant, IMO. If you want to believe that it is acceptable for a woman to take part in illegal and physically damaging activities because abortion is illegal, so be it. I think it is a baseless argument attempting to do nothing more than create a negative, baby-hating, pro-choicer image. I have said, and I will say again, commiting yourself and your body to a pregnancy comes with a moral obligation, not a legal one. I don't sit around wishing harm to every unborn child, I think this analogy is just sick, personally. I don't want women to kill themselves either, I don't women to die for pregnancy, I don't want children born addicted to crack and unwanted, I don't want women raking coathangers through their vaginas. I don't put the potential life above the existing life.
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  #29  
May 8th, 2007, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Wow... So i guess murder ISN'T one of the worst crimes after all...[/b]
Hmmm, let's think logically. Murder is illegal, abortion is not, therefore abortion is not murder. [/b]
But if we're talking about the effects on the baby when it's BORN, then it IS murder. Because you're saying the fetus shouldn't endure damage due to the mother's actions, but not existing at ALL is fine. So would YOU rather be murdered than be "damaged"? (I know this probably isn't making much sense... lol. I promise you, it does in my head! )

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
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I still fail to see how damaging a fetus is somehow worse than killing it. [/b]
Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy. You can fancy it up with all the cute little baby murdering imagery, but it is not that dramatic. It is an embryo, a fetus, a clump of cells, a potential life. [/b][/quote]

But it IS a baby, and it IS a life. It IS "that dramatic" to those of us who aren't able to just look past those facts...

Quote:
Irresponsible behavior of a woman who has commited herself and her body to carrying a pregnancy to term can cause damage to the fetus which can develop into permanent and irreparable damage that can carry on through infancy to adulthood.[/b]
And again... Why is their life worth enough to say causing irreperable damage is wrong, but their life is NOT worth enough to say killing them is wrong?

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This way of thinking is just ignorant, IMO.[/b]
Just because i see things differently than you, doesn't make my views ignorant. I could easily say the same thing about YOUR views, that ignoring the fact that a fetus is a baby and life is ignorant...

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If you want to believe that it is acceptable for a woman to take part in illegal and physically damaging activities because abortion is illegal, so be it.[/b]
No... I think NEITHER is acceptable. I just think it's hypocritical to say one is okay but the other isn't.

Quote:
I think it is a baseless argument attempting to do nothing more than create a negative, baby-hating, pro-choicer image.[/b]
Not my intent at all... Though if that's the image you think is coming across, perhaps you should look into WHY that might be?


Quote:
I have said, and I will say again, commiting yourself and your body to a pregnancy comes with a moral obligation, not a legal one.[/b]
So, why is there a moral obligation to not harm the fetus through drug use, but no moral obligation to not kill it?


Quote:
I don't sit around wishing harm to every unborn child, I think this analogy is just sick, personally. I don't want women to kill themselves either, I don't women to die for pregnancy, I don't want children born addicted to crack and unwanted, I don't want women raking coathangers through their vaginas.[/b]
I know you don't, Stacey... I don't think you're heartless or any such thing. I think we obviously just view what a fetus is as different. It's a debate, nothing personal...

Quote:
I don't put the potential life above the existing life.[/b]
But again, it's more than just a POTENTIAL life. A fetus IS alive, therefore it is a life... and an EXISTING life at that. Which is why i can't just automatically put the mother's life above it.
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  #30  
May 8th, 2007, 09:47 AM
Ms.Michelle
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That "selfish" mother is hurting herself as well. We have two victims not just one.

Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
<div class='quotemain'>And you're OKAY with that??![/b]
as horrible as it sounds yes. I have to be because I'm not in control of anothers body.
[/b][/quote]

Wow... Well, i guess there's just nothing more to say to you if you're THAT cold that you can't care about an innocent little baby.
[/b][/quote]
Keep it about the subject not the personal attacks.

Quote:
Being pro-choice does not mean that I want every fetus conceived harmed and/or killed, why is that so impossible to understand? It doesn't mean that I am pushing pregnant friends through the planned parenthood doors describing the fun and wonderful amusement that is abortion. It doesn't mean that with my pregnancies that I drank, smoked or snorted coke just because it was "my body".

So, with that being said, I do not think it is okay for a woman to harm a fetus through alcohol or drug use that she has commited to carrying to term. Once you have made that decision you have a responsibility to protect the potential. Technically, yes, it is a woman's choice to do so, it still is her body and her choice. Would I support her? No. Would I encourage it? No. I don't see it as the same as abortion, at all. Abortion terminates the pregnancy, drugs and alcohol can cause life long damaging effects from the fetal stage through adulthood. If a woman commits to maintaining her pregnancy, then she is morally obligated to make certain sacrifices which could cause harm to the fetus. I won't go so far as to say that we need more laws governing our actions, but only that she has a moral obligation.[/b]
To the bolded.. That's exactly why so many women choose abortion. They know they can't bring a baby into their current world. Instead of being "selfish" as portrayed by the pro-life camp, potential mom is being protective of the potential baby.

Quote:
Quote:
Wow... So i guess murder ISN'T one of the worst crimes after all...[/b]
Hmmm, let's think logically. Murder is illegal, abortion is not, therefore abortion is not murder.

Quote:
I still fail to see how damaging a fetus is somehow worse than killing it. [/b]
Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy. You can fancy it up with all the cute little baby murdering imagery, but it is not that dramatic. It is an embryo, a fetus, a clump of cells, a potential life. Irresponsible behavior of a woman who has commited herself and her body to carrying a pregnancy to term can cause damage to the fetus which can develop into permanent and irreparable damage that can carry on through infancy to adulthood.

This way of thinking is just ignorant, IMO. If you want to believe that it is acceptable for a woman to take part in illegal and physically damaging activities because abortion is illegal, so be it. I think it is a baseless argument attempting to do nothing more than create a negative, baby-hating, pro-choicer image. I have said, and I will say again, commiting yourself and your body to a pregnancy comes with a moral obligation, not a legal one. I don't sit around wishing harm to every unborn child, I think this analogy is just sick, personally. I don't want women to kill themselves either, I don't women to die for pregnancy, I don't want children born addicted to crack and unwanted, I don't want women raking coathangers through their vaginas. I don't put the potential life above the existing life.
[/b]
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  #31  
May 8th, 2007, 09:56 AM
Caeden&#39;sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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That "selfish" mother is hurting herself as well. We have two victims not just one. [/b]
And how does that make it okay? Just because she's hurting herself too?

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
<div class='quotemain'>And you're OKAY with that??![/b]
as horrible as it sounds yes. I have to be because I'm not in control of anothers body.
[/b]
Wow... Well, i guess there's just nothing more to say to you if you're THAT cold that you can't care about an innocent little baby.
[/b][/quote]
Keep it about the subject not the personal attacks.[/b][/quote]

I really wasn't trying to personally attack her... I just find that view VERY cold. However, i do apologize for getting more personal. My apologies...

Quote:
Quote:
Being pro-choice does not mean that I want every fetus conceived harmed and/or killed, why is that so impossible to understand? It doesn't mean that I am pushing pregnant friends through the planned parenthood doors describing the fun and wonderful amusement that is abortion. It doesn't mean that with my pregnancies that I drank, smoked or snorted coke just because it was "my body".

So, with that being said, I do not think it is okay for a woman to harm a fetus through alcohol or drug use that she has commited to carrying to term. Once you have made that decision you have a responsibility to protect the potential. Technically, yes, it is a woman's choice to do so, it still is her body and her choice. Would I support her? No. Would I encourage it? No. I don't see it as the same as abortion, at all. Abortion terminates the pregnancy, drugs and alcohol can cause life long damaging effects from the fetal stage through adulthood. If a woman commits to maintaining her pregnancy, then she is morally obligated to make certain sacrifices which could cause harm to the fetus. I won't go so far as to say that we need more laws governing our actions, but only that she has a moral obligation.[/b]
To the bolded.. That's exactly why so many women choose abortion. They know they can't bring a baby into their current world. Instead of being "selfish" as portrayed by the pro-life camp, potential mom is being protective of the potential baby.[/b]
Again, it's all in how you view it... You think it's just a potential baby. I think it's a baby.
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  #32  
May 8th, 2007, 11:05 AM
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Again, it's all in how you view it... You think it's just a potential baby. I think it's a baby.[/b]
Prove it. Science does not agree and neither does the law.
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  #33  
May 8th, 2007, 11:14 AM
Caeden&#39;sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Again, it's all in how you view it... You think it's just a potential baby. I think it's a baby.[/b]
Prove it. Science does not agree and neither does the law.
[/b]
This has already been discussed on another thread, but here...
Quote:
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
ba·by /ˈbeɪbi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[bey-bee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, plural -bies, adjective, verb, -bied, -by·ing.
–noun
1. an infant or very young child.
2. a newborn or very young animal.
3. the youngest member of a family, group, etc.
4. an immature or childish person.
5. a human fetus.[/b]
A fetus is a baby.
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  #34  
May 8th, 2007, 11:21 AM
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Wow... Well, i guess there's just nothing more to say to you if you're THAT cold that you can't care about an innocent little baby[/b]
Yes I do care but I already stated my feelings that the mother makes on unwritten contract to keep it safe. The laws state that she will not have her child but myself ethicly I can't hold others to my personal opinions.

I'm not a cold person but I feel I can't and shouldn't force my personal views on others.
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  #35  
May 8th, 2007, 11:28 AM
Caeden&#39;sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
Wow... Well, i guess there's just nothing more to say to you if you're THAT cold that you can't care about an innocent little baby[/b]
Yes I do care but I already stated my feelings that the mother makes on unwritten contract to keep it safe. The laws state that she will not have her child but myself ethicly I can't hold others to my personal opinions.

I'm not a cold person but I feel I can't and shouldn't force my personal views on others.
[/b][/quote]

Even when they harm others? You've already said you DO draw the line there... So, are you okay with murderers, rapists, a mom feeding her infant alcohol, a mom smoking pot with her five year old, etc...? Or do you feel you can't force your personal views on those people?
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  #37  
May 8th, 2007, 11:38 AM
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Even when they harm others? You've already said you DO draw the line there... So, are you okay with murderers, rapists, a mom feeding her infant alcohol, a mom smoking pot with her five year old, etc...? Or do you feel you can't force your personal views on those people?[/b]
yes that is where I draw the line however I don't see a fetus as other. It's harming a potencail human not one that exists IMO. I feel the things listed above are focing things on a human being not potential and that's why I feel the things listed above are wrong.
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  #38  
May 8th, 2007, 11:44 AM
Caeden&#39;sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
<div class='quotemain'>Wow... Well, i guess there's just nothing more to say to you if you're THAT cold that you can't care about an innocent little baby[/b]
Yes I do care but I already stated my feelings that the mother makes on unwritten contract to keep it safe. The laws state that she will not have her child but myself ethicly I can't hold others to my personal opinions.

I'm not a cold person but I feel I can't and shouldn't force my personal views on others.
[/b]
Even when they harm others? You've already said you DO draw the line there... So, are you okay with murderers, rapists, a mom feeding her infant alcohol, a mom smoking pot with her five year old, etc...? Or do you feel you can't force your personal views on those people?
[/b][/quote]

You see a woman having an abortion as "harming others" but she doesn't. Comparing someone who has had an abortion to a murderer or rapist isn't right.
[/b][/quote]

But we're talking about actions that affect the fetus even when it IS a "full fledged person".

Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
Even when they harm others? You've already said you DO draw the line there... So, are you okay with murderers, rapists, a mom feeding her infant alcohol, a mom smoking pot with her five year old, etc...? Or do you feel you can't force your personal views on those people?[/b]
yes that is where I draw the line however I don't see a fetus as other. It's harming a potencail human not one that exists IMO. I feel the things listed above are focing things on a human being not potential and that's why I feel the things listed above are wrong.
[/b][/quote]

A fetus is human, and it does exist. It doesn't POTENTIALLY exist, it exists. And if you drink or do drugs while pregnant, it's going to harm the fetus when it IS a born child, with full rights. So how is that okay?
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  #39  
May 8th, 2007, 11:47 AM
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it's going to harm the fetus when it IS a born child, with full rights. So how is that okay?[/b]
because it may not live
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  #40  
May 8th, 2007, 11:53 AM
Caeden&#39;sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Quote:
it's going to harm the fetus when it IS a born child, with full rights. So how is that okay?[/b]
because it may not live
[/b][/quote]

So? Chances are it will... NONE of us have a guarantee of living, so does that mean we can all hurt eachother and it's fine?
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