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  #1  
May 7th, 2007, 01:01 PM
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We talk about reproductive rights when pregnant the right to choice whether to continue a pregnancy or not but what about reproductive rights not to get pregnant. What age do you believe people should be able to get permanent sterilization? Do they have to have kids? Do you feel this would coincide with your stand for / against abortion?
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  #2  
May 7th, 2007, 01:05 PM
Ms.Michelle
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Quote:
We talk about reproductive rights when pregnant the right to choice whether to continue a pregnancy or not but what about reproductive rights not to get pregnant. What age do you believe people should be able to get permanent sterilization? Do they have to have kids? Do you feel this would coincide with your stand for / against abortion?[/b]
I don't think there should be a age limit, child limit or any other limit on whether or not we get this done. If a 18 year old male wanted sterilization, would they have to go through the same hoops as the female counterparts? Should he have limits too?

This question and the abortion question are all about having reproductive rights as a basic human right. It's sad we have any limits there.
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  #3  
May 7th, 2007, 01:19 PM
Mom2DavidandAaron's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
We talk about reproductive rights when pregnant the right to choice whether to continue a pregnancy or not but what about reproductive rights not to get pregnant. What age do you believe people should be able to get permanent sterilization? Do they have to have kids? Do you feel this would coincide with your stand for / against abortion?[/b]
Of course people aren't forced to have kids if they don't want to. If a person wants to be sterilized at 20, then that's her thing. If she asked ME what I thought, I'd say that at that point in her life she cannot know if she'll ever want kids, so 'd say permanent sterilization at such a young age it's a bad move, but certainly one she's entitled to make.
And I think this coincides perfectly with my view on abortion. If a person doesn't want to have children and takes measures to prevent it, she's not hurting anyone, she's making a choice over her body and life. Abortion is completely different. By then you are hurting someone else, mainly the life growing inside you. I think that by the time that life was created, you gain responsibility for that life. I'm not talking about special circumstances like rape, for example. I'm, talking about full responsible people making the willing and conscious choice to engage in sexual activity knowing that this action may result in a pregnancy, even if some precautions were taken. That automatically gives you a responsibility for the life you created.

Sharon
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  #4  
May 7th, 2007, 01:25 PM
Caeden'sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Quote:
We talk about reproductive rights when pregnant the right to choice whether to continue a pregnancy or not but what about reproductive rights not to get pregnant. What age do you believe people should be able to get permanent sterilization? Do they have to have kids? Do you feel this would coincide with your stand for / against abortion?[/b]
Of course people aren't forced to have kids if they don't want to. If a person wants to be sterilized at 20, then that's her thing. If she asked ME what I thought, I'd say that at that point in her life she cannot know if she'll ever want kids, so 'd say permanent sterilization at such a young age it's a bad move, but certainly one she's entitled to make.
And I think this coincides perfectly with my view on abortion. If a person doesn't want to have children and takes measures to prevent it, she's not hurting anyone, she's making a choice over her body and life. Abortion is completely different. By then you are hurting someone else, mainly the life growing inside you. I think that by the time that life was created, you gain responsibility for that life. I'm not talking about special circumstances like rape, for example. I'm, talking about full responsible people making the willing and conscious choice to engage in sexual activity knowing that this action may result in a pregnancy, even if some precautions were taken. That automatically gives you a responsibility for the life you created.

Sharon
[/b]
except for the bolded, since i don't believe in abortion for rape victims. But otherwise, this sums up my thoughts exactly. I DO think however, a person who is young and childless might be required to undergo some counseling or something similar to what some propose women go through before abortion. But if they still want to be sterilized, then absolutely... let them! At least they're being responsible in not bringing an unwanted life into being in the first place.
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  #5  
May 7th, 2007, 01:32 PM
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Everyone should have the right to get sterilized upon there 18th birthday. However that's usually not the case and males usually have a much easier time getting there request filled then females. No matter what the persons age is it's rather ridiculous to think under ________ age, after considering them adults, you can't make desitions about your future or your reproductive system. Who's to say an 18 year old is to young to decide they don't want kids or anymore kids?

How does it affect my abortion stance. I think less abortions would be necessary.
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  #6  
May 7th, 2007, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Everyone should have the right to get sterilized upon there 18th birthday. However that's usually not the case and males usually have a much easier time getting there request filled then females. No matter what the persons age is it's rather ridiculous to think under ________ age, after considering them adults, you can't make desitions about your future or your reproductive system. Who's to say an 18 year old is to young to decide they don't want kids or anymore kids?[/b]
I don't agree. I don't think anyone should be allowed to be sterilized that doesn't already have a child or hit an older age (say...45?). Why? Because it's PERMANENT. And people can change their minds.

If someone wants an IUD or some other method of birth control that lasts a long time, fine by me. But I don't think an 18 year old male or female is mature enough to decide that they NEVER want kids. I didn't want kids when I was that age. And I changed my mind a few years later.
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  #7  
May 7th, 2007, 01:41 PM
Mom2DavidandAaron's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
except for the bolded, since i don't believe in abortion for rape victims. But otherwise, this sums up my thoughts exactly. I DO think however, a person who is young and childless might be required to undergo some counseling or something similar to what some propose women go through before abortion. But if they still want to be sterilized, then absolutely... let them! At least they're being responsible in not bringing an unwanted life into being in the first place.[/b]
Maybe I should clarify. My personal position on abortion due to rape is somewhat confusing and abit undecided at the moment. I do understand that it's the most horrible experience and to find yourself carrying a child created out of that violence must be terrible. So I can understand that many women won't want to continue those pregnancies and I'd be the last one to judge them. But I do not think that's the more valid reason to have an abortion. I still think that baby could be given up for adoption.
What I meant by talking about rape victims is that these women aren't really responsible for their current situation. That doesn't mean they're not responsible to make the best possible choice for the child they're carrying, but they didn't willingly engage in an activity they knew could result in pregnancy only to say "well, I wasn't planning that!" line and use that as a valid reason to end a life.
Someone gave a wonderful example just yesterday. When you get into your car, there's a possibility, even if remote that you could get into a car crash. If you do, you can't go "but judge, I wasn't planning on crashing!" Well, no one does, but if you do crash, you have to take responsibility. You can't get out of that just because you thought it wouldn't happen. If you're not ready to take that responsibility, then don't drive a car.

Sharon
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  #8  
May 7th, 2007, 01:50 PM
Caeden'sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Quote:
except for the bolded, since i don't believe in abortion for rape victims. But otherwise, this sums up my thoughts exactly. I DO think however, a person who is young and childless might be required to undergo some counseling or something similar to what some propose women go through before abortion. But if they still want to be sterilized, then absolutely... let them! At least they're being responsible in not bringing an unwanted life into being in the first place.[/b]
Maybe I should clarify. My personal position on abortion due to rape is somewhat confusing and abit undecided at the moment. I do understand that it's the most horrible experience and to find yourself carrying a child created out of that violence must be terrible. So I can understand that many women won't want to continue those pregnancies and I'd be the last one to judge them. But I do not think that's the more valid reason to have an abortion. I still think that baby could be given up for adoption.
What I meant by talking about rape victims is that these women aren't really responsible for their current situation. That doesn't mean they're not responsible to make the best possible choice for the child they're carrying, but they didn't willingly engage in an activity they knew could result in pregnancy only to say "well, I wasn't planning that!" line and use that as a valid reason to end a life.
Someone gave a wonderful example just yesterday. When you get into your car, there's a possibility, even if remote that you could get into a car crash. If you do, you can't go "but judge, I wasn't planning on crashing!" Well, no one does, but if you do crash, you have to take responsibility. You can't get out of that just because you thought it wouldn't happen. If you're not ready to take that responsibility, then don't drive a car.

Sharon
[/b]
Ahh okay, sorry... I misunderstood. I agree with you completely here. Rape is HORRIBLE, and my heart goes out to the woman who has to endure 9 months of pregnancy on top of that. Unfortunately, life sucks sometimes, and sometimes we have to do things we don't want to... It's not the child's fault it was conceived in rape, and i think it at least deserves the chance at life, even if given up for adoption. It's not the woman's fault by any stretch of the imagination... but that doesn't mean it's fair to then kill the child. So yeah, i think we're on the same page...
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  #9  
May 7th, 2007, 02:01 PM
Ms.Michelle
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We don't have choice here. That's why the body/choice statement applies here as well.

Quote:
Quote:
Everyone should have the right to get sterilized upon there 18th birthday. However that's usually not the case and males usually have a much easier time getting there request filled then females. No matter what the persons age is it's rather ridiculous to think under ________ age, after considering them adults, you can't make desitions about your future or your reproductive system. Who's to say an 18 year old is to young to decide they don't want kids or anymore kids?[/b]
I don't agree. I don't think anyone should be allowed to be sterilized that doesn't already have a child or hit an older age (say...45?). Why? Because it's PERMANENT. And people can change their minds.

If someone wants an IUD or some other method of birth control that lasts a long time, fine by me. But I don't think an 18 year old male or female is mature enough to decide that they NEVER want kids. I didn't want kids when I was that age. And I changed my mind a few years later.
[/b]
If they can sign up for war, why shouldn't they have the option? Besides aren't most people all about "being responsible?" Isn't not having accidents being "responsible?"
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  #10  
May 7th, 2007, 02:07 PM
Mom2DavidandAaron's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Ahh okay, sorry... I misunderstood. I agree with you completely here. Rape is HORRIBLE, and my heart goes out to the woman who has to endure 9 months of pregnancy on top of that. Unfortunately, life sucks sometimes, and sometimes we have to do things we don't want to... It's not the child's fault it was conceived in rape, and i think it at least deserves the chance at life, even if given up for adoption. It's not the woman's fault by any stretch of the imagination... but that doesn't mean it's fair to then kill the child. So yeah, i think we're on the same page...[/b]
Indeed we are. We agree again!



Quote:
If they can sign up for war, why shouldn't they have the option? Besides aren't most people all about "being responsible?" Isn't not having accidents being "responsible?"[/b]
I can't answer for her, but I agree that at 18 is too young to be able to make such a choice. It's hughly likely that at one point, they'll change their minds. BUT having said that, if they insist on having it done, then they should be able to. It ties with personal responsibility as well. If they regret it later, well, it was their responsibility and they'll ahve to deal with the consequences of their actions. I do think, however, that anyone that young and childless wanting to be sterilized should go through some sort of therapy in mostly the same way people who want a sex change operation do. Just for their protection and to be sure that's what they really want.

Sharon
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  #11  
May 7th, 2007, 02:09 PM
donomama
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I would rather see someone be sterilized and have regrets than use abortion as birth control. I think they should allow it at any age, because this truly IS a case of "my body, my choice." (I don't think that statement applies to abortion)
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  #12  
May 7th, 2007, 02:33 PM
Ms.Michelle
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Quote:
If they can sign up for war, why shouldn't they have the option? Besides aren't most people all about "being responsible?" Isn't not having accidents being "responsible?"[/b]
I can't answer for her, but I agree that at 18 is too young to be able to make such a choice. It's hughly likely that at one point, they'll change their minds. BUT having said that, if they insist on having it done, then they should be able to. It ties with personal responsibility as well. If they regret it later, well, it was their responsibility and they'll ahve to deal with the consequences of their actions. I do think, however, that anyone that young and childless wanting to be sterilized should go through some sort of therapy in mostly the same way people who want a sex change operation do. Just for their protection and to be sure that's what they really want.

Sharon
[/b]

Quote:
I would rather see someone be sterilized and have regrets than use abortion as birth control. I think they should allow it at any age, because this truly IS a case of "my body, my choice." (I don't think that statement applies to abortion)[/b]
Girls.. we are in complete agreement.. And I have to say we should have a party because of it!
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  #13  
May 7th, 2007, 02:39 PM
Mom2DavidandAaron's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Girls.. we are in complete agreement.. And I have to say we should have a party because of it! [/b]


Sharon
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  #14  
May 7th, 2007, 03:09 PM
donomama
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Michelle - we agree from time to time on the main board, but I do think this is the first time we have EVER agreed on the debate boards!!!
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  #15  
May 7th, 2007, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
If they can sign up for war, why shouldn't they have the option? Besides aren't most people all about "being responsible?" Isn't not having accidents being "responsible?"[/b]
I can't answer for her, but I agree that at 18 is too young to be able to make such a choice. It's hughly likely that at one point, they'll change their minds. BUT having said that, if they insist on having it done, then they should be able to. It ties with personal responsibility as well. If they regret it later, well, it was their responsibility and they'll ahve to deal with the consequences of their actions. I do think, however, that anyone that young and childless wanting to be sterilized should go through some sort of therapy in mostly the same way people who want a sex change operation do. Just for their protection and to be sure that's what they really want.

Sharon
[/b]
There are other ways to be responsible. Get an IUD, those last for 10 years and have a VERY low failure rate. Or get a Norplant. Etc. You don't have to get sterilized, which is permanent. The fact that it is permanent is the reason I don't agree with an 18 year old doing it.

Most other things an 18 year old can do, are REVERSIBLE. An 18 year old can get married, if it doesn't work out, there is divorce. They can join the military, and if they don't like it, they don't re-enlist next time. They can go to college, work, etc. But if they change their minds and decide to pursue some other career, they CAN. Not so with sterilization. You do it, you can't UNDO it.

I still think it should be an age limit of 40something or for the person to already have a child.
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  #16  
May 7th, 2007, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If they can sign up for war, why shouldn't they have the option? Besides aren't most people all about "being responsible?" Isn't not having accidents being "responsible?"[/b]
I can't answer for her, but I agree that at 18 is too young to be able to make such a choice. It's hughly likely that at one point, they'll change their minds. BUT having said that, if they insist on having it done, then they should be able to. It ties with personal responsibility as well. If they regret it later, well, it was their responsibility and they'll ahve to deal with the consequences of their actions. I do think, however, that anyone that young and childless wanting to be sterilized should go through some sort of therapy in mostly the same way people who want a sex change operation do. Just for their protection and to be sure that's what they really want.

Sharon
[/b]
There are other ways to be responsible. Get an IUD, those last for 10 years and have a VERY low failure rate. Or get a Norplant. Etc. You don't have to get sterilized, which is permanent. The fact that it is permanent is the reason I don't agree with an 18 year old doing it.

Most other things an 18 year old can do, are REVERSIBLE. An 18 year old can get married, if it doesn't work out, there is divorce. They can join the military, and if they don't like it, they don't re-enlist next time. They can go to college, work, etc. But if they change their minds and decide to pursue some other career, they CAN. Not so with sterilization. You do it, you can't UNDO it.

I still think it should be an age limit of 40something or for the person to already have a child.
[/b]
But at 18, you're an adult... Why SHOULDN'T you be able to make permanent decisions for yourself?
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  #17  
May 13th, 2007, 12:04 PM
Melanie.'s Avatar Totalimmortal
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Yes, I think that you should be able to be sterilized with no restrictions.
If you mature and realize it was a mistake, there is always adoption. Men should be able to be sterilized aswell.
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  #18  
May 14th, 2007, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
except for the bolded, since i don't believe in abortion for rape victims. But otherwise, this sums up my thoughts exactly. I DO think however, a person who is young and childless might be required to undergo some counseling or something similar to what some propose women go through before abortion. But if they still want to be sterilized, then absolutely... let them! At least they're being responsible in not bringing an unwanted life into being in the first place.[/b]
Maybe I should clarify. My personal position on abortion due to rape is somewhat confusing and abit undecided at the moment. I do understand that it's the most horrible experience and to find yourself carrying a child created out of that violence must be terrible. So I can understand that many women won't want to continue those pregnancies and I'd be the last one to judge them. But I do not think that's the more valid reason to have an abortion. I still think that baby could be given up for adoption.
What I meant by talking about rape victims is that these women aren't really responsible for their current situation. That doesn't mean they're not responsible to make the best possible choice for the child they're carrying, but they didn't willingly engage in an activity they knew could result in pregnancy only to say "well, I wasn't planning that!" line and use that as a valid reason to end a life.
Someone gave a wonderful example just yesterday. When you get into your car, there's a possibility, even if remote that you could get into a car crash. If you do, you can't go "but judge, I wasn't planning on crashing!" Well, no one does, but if you do crash, you have to take responsibility. You can't get out of that just because you thought it wouldn't happen. If you're not ready to take that responsibility, then don't drive a car.

Sharon
[/b]

The core diffrences between rape victoms and a car crash victoms - is that the car crash victoms 1. aknowledge and assume the risk of getting into an accident (this is why they have insurence) when they entered the car and 2. car crash victoms aren't denied treatments for the injuries that result from the accident. Rape victoms DO NOT EVER assume or aknowledge the possibility of the risk of rape...EVER. The fact that - because someone happens to have a vagina, overies, and a uterous, - DOES NOT MEAN that they should accept responsibility for rape and not be allowed treatment for it's concequences. Truley idiotic logic. Car crash victoms are usually atleast partially responsible for thier accidents (by not being in full controol of thier car - not being vigilant enough exc) and rape victoms are NEVER responsibile - in any minute way - for thier rapes. You shouldn't be forced to accept the concequences for something which isin't your responsibility. The womans well being is much more important that a fetuses.
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  #19  
May 14th, 2007, 04:51 PM
Mom2DavidandAaron's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
The core diffrences between rape victoms and a car crash victoms - is that the car crash victoms 1. aknowledge and assume the risk of getting into an accident (this is why they have insurence) when they entered the car and 2. car crash victoms aren't denied treatments for the injuries that result from the accident. Rape victoms DO NOT EVER assume or aknowledge the possibility of the risk of rape...EVER. The fact that - because someone happens to have a vagina, overies, and a uterous, - DOES NOT MEAN that they should accept responsibility for rape and not be allowed treatment for it's concequences. Truley idiotic logic. Car crash victoms are usually atleast partially responsible for thier accidents (by not being in full controol of thier car - not being vigilant enough exc) and rape victoms are NEVER responsibile - in any minute way - for thier rapes. You shouldn't be forced to accept the concequences for something which isin't your responsibility. The womans well being is much more important that a fetuses.[/b]
I'm sorry you completely misunderstood my point. I never said that a rape victim should be responsible for the rape, but yes, she has to be respo0nsible for the consequences. Why? Because that's life. Things happen to us, good and bad and many times it isn't our fault, but that doesn't mean we don't have to deal with the consequences. Lack of fault doesn't equal lack of responsibility and it doesn't justify doing something wrong.
If my wallet with my paycheck gets stolen and I can't pay my rent, I'm sure the landlord wouldn't be all firgiving and kind because it's not my fault. It's still my responsibility and I'd have to deal with it.
Before calling my logic idiotic, read it carefully. I even said that my position regarding abortion and rape is complicated precisely because I understand how a woman would find it incredibly difficult to carry that child, even if she decided to give it up for adoption. But I, personally, think that even that child deserves a chance. It's not his fault also and whether we planned on it or not, it's a life we're responsible for.

Sharon
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  #20  
May 14th, 2007, 04:56 PM
Caeden'sMama's Avatar Mega Super Mommy
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Quote:
Quote:
The core diffrences between rape victoms and a car crash victoms - is that the car crash victoms 1. aknowledge and assume the risk of getting into an accident (this is why they have insurence) when they entered the car and 2. car crash victoms aren't denied treatments for the injuries that result from the accident. Rape victoms DO NOT EVER assume or aknowledge the possibility of the risk of rape...EVER. The fact that - because someone happens to have a vagina, overies, and a uterous, - DOES NOT MEAN that they should accept responsibility for rape and not be allowed treatment for it's concequences. Truley idiotic logic. Car crash victoms are usually atleast partially responsible for thier accidents (by not being in full controol of thier car - not being vigilant enough exc) and rape victoms are NEVER responsibile - in any minute way - for thier rapes. You shouldn't be forced to accept the concequences for something which isin't your responsibility. The womans well being is much more important that a fetuses.[/b]
I'm sorry you completely misunderstood my point. I never said that a rape victim should be responsible for the rape, but yes, she has to be respo0nsible for the consequences. Why? Because that's life. Things happen to us, good and bad and many times it isn't our fault, but that doesn't mean we don't have to deal with the consequences. Lack of fault doesn't equal lack of responsibility and it doesn't justify doing something wrong.
If my wallet with my paycheck gets stolen and I can't pay my rent, I'm sure the landlord wouldn't be all firgiving and kind because it's not my fault. It's still my responsibility and I'd have to deal with it.
Before calling my logic idiotic, read it carefully. I even said that my position regarding abortion and rape is complicated precisely because I understand how a woman would find it incredibly difficult to carry that child, even if she decided to give it up for adoption. But I, personally, think that even that child deserves a chance. It's not his fault also and whether we planned on it or not, it's a life we're responsible for.

Sharon
[/b]
Exactly... Well said.
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